Kelly might be as good a coach as Lou Holtz

[HuddleBurger]

Even Lou couldn't win consistently once the administration clamped down on the football program. His numbers in his last 3 season are downright Kelly-esque. Check it out:

1994
Record: 6-5-1
Lost at unranked Boston College 30-11 (second consecutive loss to BC), with 50 passing yards total. Followed by a loss at home to #25 BYU where ND scored only 14 points. Also got smoked in the Fiesta Bowl by Colorado, 41-24 (CU led 31-3 before calling off the dogs).

1995
Record: 9-3
Lost to unranked Northwestern at home, 17-15 in the season opener. Got blown out at Ohio State, 45-26. Struggled mightily to beat unranked Army 28-27 at Giants Stadium, and finally lost the Orange Bowl to Florida State, 31-26.

1996
Record: 8-3
Opened the season on a Thursday night and barely beat lowly Vanderbilt 14-7, dropping 3 spots in the rankings with the win. Got dominated at home by Ohio State, rushing for a total of 44 yards in the 29-16 loss. Lost at home in OT to lowly Air Force. The last game of the season saw ND lose to a 5-6 USC team in the Coliseum in OT, 27-20. The admin was still too arrogant to accept a bid to a minor bowl, so there was no bowl game in Lou's last year.

Did Lou suddenly become a bad coach? Did he suddenly forget how to coach fundamentals? No, I would posit that the administration, headed up by Fr. Malloy and Fr. Beauchamp, began cracking down on the football program, which was becoming a bit too renegade for their tastes. This affected recruiting and the ability to bring in the type of athletes Holtz coveted. Beauchamp had already signed the one-of-a-kind NBC contract, and negotiated ND's entry into the Big East Conference, so the money was in the bank and his stock was high. Now it was time to "clean up" the football program, in spite of all the fame and riches it had brought the school.

This new culture of scholarly superiority in favor of gridiron excellence has been in place ever since, resulting in the Era of Mediocrity. You could argue that Davie, Willingham, and Weis were not good college football coaches based on their records at other programs. But Brian Kelly has good numbers as a coach outside of ND, and has very similar numbers to Lou during the Era of Mediocrity at ND, so he might very well be as good a coach as Lou. At the very least you could say that if Lou couldn't win under ND's restrictions, they may never find a coach who can.

The administration needs to decide that championship football is important to the University. It won't matter who the coach is until they do. IMHO, of course.

 

[zonairish]

well said, this is a contributing factor to the Irish woes

 

[ivan brunetti]

Do you think standards are more strict than at Stanford?

 

[perseverare]

and the administration is not making game plan fubars or in game decision gaffaws!

better staff planning and decisions and the team is 3-0 and none of what we have been reading has yet manifested itself.

 

[IrishHerb]

Have to look at who Lou's QB was during his last 3 years.

Lou was basically an option type run first coach during his first years at ND. During his last few years he went away from this to a more pass oriented offense. And the results ...

 

[Bodizephax]

Even Lou couldn't win consistently once the administration clamped down on the football program. His numbers in his last 3 season are downright Kelly-esque. Check it out:

1994
Record: 6-5-1
Lost at unranked Boston College 30-11 (second consecutive loss to BC), with 50 passing yards total. Followed by a loss at home to #25 BYU where ND scored only 14 points. Also got smoked in the Fiesta Bowl by Colorado, 41-24 (CU led 31-3 before calling off the dogs).

1995
Record: 9-3
Lost to unranked Northwestern at home, 17-15 in the season opener. Got blown out at Ohio State, 45-26. Struggled mightily to beat unranked Army 28-27 at Giants Stadium, and finally lost the Orange Bowl to Florida State, 31-26.

1996
Record: 8-3
Opened the season on a Thursday night and barely beat lowly Vanderbilt 14-7, dropping 3 spots in the rankings with the win. Got dominated at home by Ohio State, rushing for a total of 44 yards in the 29-16 loss. Lost at home in OT to lowly Air Force. The last game of the season saw ND lose to a 5-6 USC team in the Coliseum in OT, 27-20. The admin was still too arrogant to accept a bid to a minor bowl, so there was no bowl game in Lou's last year.

Did Lou suddenly become a bad coach? Did he suddenly forget how to coach fundamentals? No, I would posit that the administration, headed up by Fr. Malloy and Fr. Beauchamp, began cracking down on the football program, which was becoming a bit too renegade for their tastes. This affected recruiting and the ability to bring in the type of athletes Holtz coveted. Beauchamp had already signed the one-of-a-kind NBC contract, and negotiated ND's entry into the Big East Conference, so the money was in the bank and his stock was high. Now it was time to "clean up" the football program, in spite of all the fame and riches it had brought the school.

This new culture of scholarly superiority in favor of gridiron excellence has been in place ever since, resulting in the Era of Mediocrity. You could argue that Davie, Willingham, and Weis were not good college football coaches based on their records at other programs. But Brian Kelly has good numbers as a coach outside of ND, and has very similar numbers to Lou during the Era of Mediocrity at ND, so he might very well be as good a coach as Lou. At the very least you could say that if Lou couldn't win under ND's restrictions, they may never find a coach who can.

The administration needs to decide that championship football is important to the University. It won't matter who the coach is until they do. IMHO, of course.

Great post. Something to think about. Kelly is getting more help from admin but evidentally not enough. I am tired of all the academic trouble and Kicking Golson out for a year for a minor cheating violation. He should have been put on "Double secret probation" but allowed to play football. That killed us in 2013.

 

[HDK]

Did Lou suddenly become a bad coach? Did he suddenly forget how to coach fundamentals? No, I would posit that the administration, headed up by Fr. Malloy and Fr. Beauchamp, began cracking down on the football program, which was becoming a bit too renegade for their tastes.

I think if you went back you would discover that Notre Dame began to ramp up their entrance requirements for all students, not just football players. There was also a falloff in graduation percentages, which is something Notre Dame has always placed a very high value on.

It also seems like the administration has cut Kelly some slack. You can see that in the number of players expelled for cheating under his watch, which seems to have gone up, not to mention arrests.

Despite the constant refrain that the bar has been set too high for Notre Dame to compete, I'd be willing to bet that there are fewer than 20 scholarship football players who would have been admitted if they didn't have fast 40 times or the ability to bench press a ton.

 

[BGI User 1596]

Good thing he didn't coach at Stanford!

 

[tkirish]

This is an interesting post. Due to acedemic restrictions ND is not on the same playing field. I agree with that. Also Stanford has figured out how to compete at a high level while maintaining high acedemic standards. So how doe ND succeed in this environment? Well I have an idea that I believe would work.
First the offense they run now is not what they need to win consistently. A power run with option mixed in while using play action passes is the way to go. This offense does a couple things. It works the clock. It keeps your defense fresh and off the field. It's hard these days for ND to get top defensive talent. However , offensively they can always recruit top linemen, running backs and tight ends. The receivers need to be good but not necessarily great. Good hands , decent speed and good route running are essential.
Playing a defense that doesn't give up the big play is another key component. Make teams drive the field and work for TDs. But try to keep them to field goals.
Lastly , it's time to get ND back to playing physical. I mean really start sticking and tackling. On offense impose your will with a strong powerful offensive line and use big power backs. That style will wear teams down and you have a better chance of winning. Notre Dame doesn't need to be Cincinati.

 

[HuddleBurger]

Have to look at who Lou's QB was during his last 3 years.

Lou was basically an option type run first coach during his first years at ND. During his last few years he went away from this to a more pass oriented offense. And the results ...

True, I always thought Holtz was a little out of his element without an option QB. That being said, I don't think Kevin McDougal was much of an option QB, and they almost won a NC with him. Obviously Rick Mirer wasn't an option guy either. Plus, maybe most of the elite option QB recruits wouldn't qualify to enroll at ND with the restrictive Era of Mediocrity standards in place. Tony Rice was a Prop 48 "project" that the admin allowed to enroll at the time.

 

[bobcri]

Try listing wins vs top ten teams and you will get the answer.

 

[perseverare]

^ yep.

trying to stay outta this one; the whole premise was absurd!

 

[BGI User 1596]

Kelly won two NC and LH just one.

 

[perseverare]

are you counting the make believe thread? minor leagues don't count,

 

[BGI-CANADA]

Do you think standards are more strict than at Stanford?

B I N B G O

 

[HuddleBurger]

Try listing wins vs top ten teams and you will get the answer.

Lou Holtz record vs. Top-25 teams in his last 3 seasons:
4-7-1

Brian Kelly record vs. Top-25 teams the last 3 seasons:
4-9

Pretty close if you ask me. Again, until ND decides that championship football is important to the university, it doesn't matter who the coach is.

 

[end_23]

Do you think standards are more strict than at Stanford?

In a way they are. It's tougher at ND when the student-athlete gets on campus. It's tougher to get into Stanford but once the players are in they are coddled and allowed into pussy classes.

 

[88ND]

No way. Not even close.

BK knew going in what's ahead. Prepared and recruited as such.

Holtz midstream had the admissions policy changed on him.

 

[chitown sot]

Kelly won two NC and LH just one.

Please, grand valley st? Wow. This thread is absurd. There is no comparison between holtz and the wanna be big boy head coach bk.

 

[perseverare]

I've seen some of Lou's comments recently, and Kelly and Lou might be sharing 1 brain.

 

[Java65]

Kelly won two NC and LH just one.

Gerry Faust won 4 national titles.

I'm sorry but this has to be one of the most ridicules posts ever. You pull out Lou's last 3 seasons to prove a point but you don't include a LOT of factors.

First, the only really bad season was 1994. He won 9 games in '95 and they only played 12 games including the bowl game. He won 8 games in '96 and only played 11. Kelly can only win 8 games while playing 13. In reality those 9 and 8 win seasons could easily have been 10 and 9 win season with an extra game (maybe 2 10 win season.)

Second, the last few years not only did they change the academic restrictions but the administration was actively looking to undermine Holtz. Lou was forced to hire Bob Davie who was reporting back to the administration. It's amazing that he was those games considering the school is working against you.

Third, as I have said many times ND is a brutal place to coach and it grinds a man down. When that happens, I don't care what your profession is, people usually don't perform as well. Lou was clearly beaten down by that point. If this theory is correct it's highly unlikely Kelly is going to get better.

Fourth, the game had clearly passed Lou by. Just look at his time at S. Carolina who have no restrictions. He could never come close to duplicating his success at ND or Arkansas.

To even attempt to compare Kelly to Lou shows a complete lack of understanding of football and ND.

 

[BGI User 1596]

Gerry Faust won 4 national titles.

I'm sorry but this has to be one of the most ridicules posts ever. You pull out Lou's last 3 seasons to prove a point but you don't include a LOT of factors.

First, the only really bad season was 1994. He won 9 games in '95 and they only played 12 games including the bowl game. He won 8 games in '96 and only played 11. Kelly can only win 8 games while playing 13. In reality those 9 and 8 win seasons could easily have been 10 and 9 win season with an extra game (maybe 2 10 win season.)

Second, the last few years not only did they change the academic restrictions but the administration was actively looking to undermine Holtz. Lou was forced to hire Bob Davie who was reporting back to the administration. It's amazing that he was those games considering the school is working against you.

Third, as I have said many times ND is a brutal place to coach and it grinds a man down. When that happens, I don't care what your profession is, people usually don't perform as well. Lou was clearly beaten down by that point. If this theory is correct it's highly unlikely Kelly is going to get better.

Fourth, the game had clearly passed Lou by. Just look at his time at S. Carolina who have no restrictions. He could never come close to duplicating his success at ND or Arkansas.

To even attempt to compare Kelly to Lou shows a complete lack of understanding of football and ND.

I remember Lou took a bad Carolina team and ended up beating Ohio State a few years later in a bowl game. That was excellent coaching for that school at that time. He set the plate for the next HC at that school.

 

[Java65]

I remember Lou took a bad Carolina team and ended up beating Ohio State a few years later in a bowl game. That was excellent coaching for that school at that time. He set the plate for the next HC at that school.

So we are down to picking and choosing 1 game? As I recall that OSU team was a good team but not great.

Lou's record at SC was 0-11, 8-4, 9-3, 5-7, 5-7, 6-5. 2 good years but the rest were rather average.

 

[Legendsteve]

What? Good Lord.

 

[perseverare]

USC east was almost exclusively a basketball power back then.

 

[IrishBlessings]

Gerry Faust won 4 national titles.

I'm sorry but this has to be one of the most ridicules posts ever. You pull out Lou's last 3 seasons to prove a point but you don't include a LOT of factors.

First, the only really bad season was 1994. He won 9 games in '95 and they only played 12 games including the bowl game. He won 8 games in '96 and only played 11. Kelly can only win 8 games while playing 13. In reality those 9 and 8 win seasons could easily have been 10 and 9 win season with an extra game (maybe 2 10 win season.)

Second, the last few years not only did they change the academic restrictions but the administration was actively looking to undermine Holtz. Lou was forced to hire Bob Davie who was reporting back to the administration. It's amazing that he was those games considering the school is working against you.

Third, as I have said many times ND is a brutal place to coach and it grinds a man down. When that happens, I don't care what your profession is, people usually don't perform as well. Lou was clearly beaten down by that point. If this theory is correct it's highly unlikely Kelly is going to get better.

Fourth, the game had clearly passed Lou by. Just look at his time at S. Carolina who have no restrictions. He could never come close to duplicating his success at ND or Arkansas.

To even attempt to compare Kelly to Lou shows a complete lack of understanding of football and ND.

spot on

 

[zonairish]

my guess is it may harder to get into Stanford however, like all Catholic schools they make it difficult for you to do well

 

[twalsh]

Even Lou couldn't win consistently once the administration clamped down on the football program. His numbers in his last 3 season are downright Kelly-esque. Check it out:

1994
Record: 6-5-1
Lost at unranked Boston College 30-11 (second consecutive loss to BC), with 50 passing yards total. Followed by a loss at home to #25 BYU where ND scored only 14 points. Also got smoked in the Fiesta Bowl by Colorado, 41-24 (CU led 31-3 before calling off the dogs).

1995
Record: 9-3
Lost to unranked Northwestern at home, 17-15 in the season opener. Got blown out at Ohio State, 45-26. Struggled mightily to beat unranked Army 28-27 at Giants Stadium, and finally lost the Orange Bowl to Florida State, 31-26.

1996
Record: 8-3
Opened the season on a Thursday night and barely beat lowly Vanderbilt 14-7, dropping 3 spots in the rankings with the win. Got dominated at home by Ohio State, rushing for a total of 44 yards in the 29-16 loss. Lost at home in OT to lowly Air Force. The last game of the season saw ND lose to a 5-6 USC team in the Coliseum in OT, 27-20. The admin was still too arrogant to accept a bid to a minor bowl, so there was no bowl game in Lou's last year.

Did Lou suddenly become a bad coach? Did he suddenly forget how to coach fundamentals? No, I would posit that the administration, headed up by Fr. Malloy and Fr. Beauchamp, began cracking down on the football program, which was becoming a bit too renegade for their tastes. This affected recruiting and the ability to bring in the type of athletes Holtz coveted. Beauchamp had already signed the one-of-a-kind NBC contract, and negotiated ND's entry into the Big East Conference, so the money was in the bank and his stock was high. Now it was time to "clean up" the football program, in spite of all the fame and riches it had brought the school.

This new culture of scholarly superiority in favor of gridiron excellence has been in place ever since, resulting in the Era of Mediocrity. You could argue that Davie, Willingham, and Weis were not good college football coaches based on their records at other programs. But Brian Kelly has good numbers as a coach outside of ND, and has very similar numbers to Lou during the Era of Mediocrity at ND, so he might very well be as good a coach as Lou. At the very least you could say that if Lou couldn't win under ND's restrictions, they may never find a coach who can.

The administration needs to decide that championship football is important to the University. It won't matter who the coach is until they do. IMHO, of course.

Can't beat your screen name. I consumed many Double Huddles in the 1979/1980 school year, while living off-campus and eating lunch every day in the Huddle. Fond memories. If I ate like that now I'd weigh 300 lbs.

 

[IRISHJD98]

No way. Not even close.

BK knew going in what's ahead. Prepared and recruited as such.

Holtz midstream had the admissions policy changed on him.

Holtz also had NCAA rules changed on him in 1991/92. NCAA reforms included a decrease in scholarships from 95 to 85, a reduction in practice time to 20 hours per week (from no limit), and recruiting restrictions.

 

[HuddleBurger]

Gerry Faust won 4 national titles.

I'm sorry but this has to be one of the most ridicules posts ever. You pull out Lou's last 3 seasons to prove a point but you don't include a LOT of factors.

First, the only really bad season was 1994. He won 9 games in '95 and they only played 12 games including the bowl game. He won 8 games in '96 and only played 11. Kelly can only win 8 games while playing 13. In reality those 9 and 8 win seasons could easily have been 10 and 9 win season with an extra game (maybe 2 10 win season.)

Second, the last few years not only did they change the academic restrictions but the administration was actively looking to undermine Holtz. Lou was forced to hire Bob Davie who was reporting back to the administration. It's amazing that he was those games considering the school is working against you.

Third, as I have said many times ND is a brutal place to coach and it grinds a man down. When that happens, I don't care what your profession is, people usually don't perform as well. Lou was clearly beaten down by that point. If this theory is correct it's highly unlikely Kelly is going to get better.

Fourth, the game had clearly passed Lou by. Just look at his time at S. Carolina who have no restrictions. He could never come close to duplicating his success at ND or Arkansas.

To even attempt to compare Kelly to Lou shows a complete lack of understanding of football and ND.

Look, do I think Brian Kelly is as good a head coach as Lou Holtz? Obviously, no.

I'm trying to illustrate a point: until the ND admin decides that championship football is important to the University, it may not matter who the coach is. And the available evidence shows that a valid argument can be made.

It's been 25 years (and counting) of a meddling comedy of errors, with bungled Athletic Director hirings and firings and a carousel of head coaches, and it started under Lou.

Go ahead and act like you know more about ND football than I do. The facts that you cherry-picked don't necessarily change the facts that I cherry-picked!

 

[HDK]

Gerry Faust won 4 national titles.

I'm sorry but this has to be one of the most ridicules posts ever. You pull out Lou's last 3 seasons to prove a point but you don't include a LOT of factors.

First, the only really bad season was 1994. He won 9 games in '95 and they only played 12 games including the bowl game. He won 8 games in '96 and only played 11. Kelly can only win 8 games while playing 13. In reality those 9 and 8 win seasons could easily have been 10 and 9 win season with an extra game (maybe 2 10 win season.)

Second, the last few years not only did they change the academic restrictions but the administration was actively looking to undermine Holtz. Lou was forced to hire Bob Davie who was reporting back to the administration. It's amazing that he was those games considering the school is working against you.

Third, as I have said many times ND is a brutal place to coach and it grinds a man down. When that happens, I don't care what your profession is, people usually don't perform as well. Lou was clearly beaten down by that point. If this theory is correct it's highly unlikely Kelly is going to get better.

Fourth, the game had clearly passed Lou by. Just look at his time at S. Carolina who have no restrictions. He could never come close to duplicating his success at ND or Arkansas.

To even attempt to compare Kelly to Lou shows a complete lack of understanding of football and ND.

Lou was forced to hire Bob Davie who was reporting back to the administration.

This would be really funny if you weren't serious.

 

[twalsh]

Lou was forced to hire Bob Davie who was reporting back to the administration.

Davie's defense at Texas A&M was killing it and he was the #1 hottest DC in the country when Lou Hired him. So you think someone in the ND administration made Lou hire a specific DC from Texas A&M as an assistant? Seriously?

 

[Classic Irish]

Davie's defense at Texas A&M was killing it and he was the #1 hottest DC in the country when Lou Hired him. So you think someone in the ND administration made Lou hire a specific DC from Texas A&M as an assistant? Seriously?

Exactly. The OP's claim is preposterous.

 

[Irishjohn68]

Have to look at who Lou's QB was during his last 3 years.

Lou was basically an option type run first coach during his first years at ND. During his last few years he went away from this to a more pass oriented offense. And the results ...

You are so right. Ron Powlus was not the perfect fit for Couch Holtz. It was like taking a square peg and trying to put it in a round hole. I think both would have been much better off with out each other. I felt bad for Ron, because IMO with the right style of offense he might have developed into a good NFL QB.

 

[Irishjohn68]

Lou was forced to hire Bob Davie who was reporting back to the administration.

This would be really funny if you weren't serious.

I don't know if this was true, but it sure has heck seems like it was. I never liked Davie, he seemed to have stabbed Lou in the back. Those 5 years under Davie IMO where some of the hardest years.

 

[perseverare]

unless Kelly turns the current 'meh' recruiting class into a Top 5 recruiting class; including a # 1-4 OT and a combo of elite DE / LB tandem and 1 elite DB he will not answer the 'bell' for the 2018 Kickoff!
Quit or fired, that's the prediction here! He simply will have to go.

 

[Kelso86]

Even Lou couldn't win consistently once the administration clamped down on the football program. His numbers in his last 3 season are downright Kelly-esque. Check it out:

1994
Record: 6-5-1
Lost at unranked Boston College 30-11 (second consecutive loss to BC), with 50 passing yards total. Followed by a loss at home to #25 BYU where ND scored only 14 points. Also got smoked in the Fiesta Bowl by Colorado, 41-24 (CU led 31-3 before calling off the dogs).

1995
Record: 9-3
Lost to unranked Northwestern at home, 17-15 in the season opener. Got blown out at Ohio State, 45-26. Struggled mightily to beat unranked Army 28-27 at Giants Stadium, and finally lost the Orange Bowl to Florida State, 31-26.

1996
Record: 8-3
Opened the season on a Thursday night and barely beat lowly Vanderbilt 14-7, dropping 3 spots in the rankings with the win. Got dominated at home by Ohio State, rushing for a total of 44 yards in the 29-16 loss. Lost at home in OT to lowly Air Force. The last game of the season saw ND lose to a 5-6 USC team in the Coliseum in OT, 27-20. The admin was still too arrogant to accept a bid to a minor bowl, so there was no bowl game in Lou's last year.

Did Lou suddenly become a bad coach? Did he suddenly forget how to coach fundamentals? No, I would posit that the administration, headed up by Fr. Malloy and Fr. Beauchamp, began cracking down on the football program, which was becoming a bit too renegade for their tastes. This affected recruiting and the ability to bring in the type of athletes Holtz coveted. Beauchamp had already signed the one-of-a-kind NBC contract, and negotiated ND's entry into the Big East Conference, so the money was in the bank and his stock was high. Now it was time to "clean up" the football program, in spite of all the fame and riches it had brought the school.

This new culture of scholarly superiority in favor of gridiron excellence has been in place ever since, resulting in the Era of Mediocrity. You could argue that Davie, Willingham, and Weis were not good college football coaches based on their records at other programs. But Brian Kelly has good numbers as a coach outside of ND, and has very similar numbers to Lou during the Era of Mediocrity at ND, so he might very well be as good a coach as Lou. At the very least you could say that if Lou couldn't win under ND's restrictions, they may never find a coach who can.

The administration needs to decide that championship football is important to the University. It won't matter who the coach is until they do. IMHO, of course.

And I thought I read somewhere that Holtz and the AD at the time (cannot remember his name -- not Rosenthall) had personality issues as well that led to the resignation.

 

[NDSMC78]

And I thought I read somewhere that Holtz and the AD at the time (cannot remember his name -- not Rosenthall) had personality issues as well that led to the resignation.

Wadsworth.

 

[HDK]

And I thought I read somewhere that Holtz and the AD at the time (cannot remember his name -- not Rosenthall) had personality issues as well that led to the resignation.

Rosenthal and Holtz were buddies; they said that once Rosenthal left, Holtz felt disconnected. Then they brought in Wadsworth as AD. It was Malloy as president and Wadsworth as AD who really pushed to make ND an Ivy League school.

 

[HDK]

I don't know if this was true, but it sure has heck seems like it was. I never liked Davie, he seemed to have stabbed Lou in the back. Those 5 years under Davie IMO where some of the hardest years.

I think it borders on some kind of collective paranoia to believe that Davie was hired to keep tabs on -- and undermine -- Holtz.

You guys forget that Holtz was starting to lose his marbles a little bit toward the end, sort of like Leahy. You may remember him grabbing the ref during a BYU game to show how he thought an ND player had been held. There were also stories of him and Joe Moore having screaming matches, with Moore pretty much openly defying what Holtz told him to do.

And if Davie was the hired assassin, don't you think the administration would have appointed him Holtz's successor as soon as he announced he was quitting? Instead they tried to get Gary Barnett to take the job and only after he and a couple of others stiffed the administration did they hire Davie. But I guess the idea of pretending to be interested in hiring other head coaches before "settling" on Davie would fit the conspiracy theory.