I think the majority of ND fans care about....

[TheDecker]

It's clear that the facts are hard for you to read, so I'm just going to post this again for you..........try to take it in..........

Pos - Name (Star Rank, Comp. Rating, Comp. Rank)

WDE - Trumbetti (4*, 93.5,143rd) / Randolph (4*, 90.5, 249th)
NT - Jones (4*, 93.5, 148th) / Cage (4*, 89.5, 300th)
DT - Tillery (4*, 93.0, 158th) / Hayes (4*, 90.5, 217th)
SDE - Rochell (4*, 94.5, 115th) / Blkenship (4*, 90.0, 268th)
WLB - Coney (4*, 89.5, 311th) / Barajas (4*, 94.0, 137th)
MLB - Morgan (4*, 97.5, 54th) / Martini (3*, 88.5, 364th)
SLB - Onwaulu (4*, 89.5, 305th) / Bilal (4*, 92.0, 184th)
CB - Russell (4*,94.0, 145th) / Watkins (4*, 92.5, 177th)
CB - Luke (4*, 93.5, 142nd) / Coleman (3*, 86.0, 686th)
NB - Crawford (4*, 94.5, 113th) / Tranquil (4*, 89.5, 277th)
FS - Redfield (5*, 98.5 , 30th) / Butler (4*, 89.0, 332nd)
SS - Avery (4*,90.5,217th) / Tranquil (4*, 89.5, 277th)

If you accept that as the 2-Deep (and I think it's a pretty fair "best guess")

Starters
5* - 1
4* - 11
3* - 0

2- Deep
5* - 1
4* - 23
3* - 2

And when you want to break it down further

Starters Average Composite Rating - 93.50 (~130th Overall Ranking)
2nd String Average Composite Rating - 90.125 (~250th Overall Ranking)
2-Deep Average Composite Rating - 91.55 (~200th Overall Ranking)

To put even a little more context on this........The recruit from this class that would match our "average" for the entire 2-Deep for next year:
Kahlid Kareem - 4*, 91.8, 195th Overall (Flipped from Alabama)

 

[TheDecker]

The best part of all of this is:

I'm not calling for Van Gorder's head, at all

There are a lot of things that need to be changed on defense

1. Fewer Injuries
2. Simpler Scheme
3. Improved Fundamentals (especially tackling and disciplined play at safety)

Some of that can be changed by van Gorder improving, so of it will require more than that

But raw talent is not a primary issue on this defense.............obviously, if you do some very basic fact finding

 

[chaseball]

I'm only interested on being enlightened/educated ... ignoring facts would be counter productive to achieving that goal .. im really not that combative .. i just have issue with people choosing to argue in the face of mounting evidence.

your entire 2 deep is mired in error ... maybe half of those guys were in the 2 deep ... the fact of the matter is ND didn't have a 2 deep this year ... which again goes back to poor recruiting and injury decimation

 

[FightingIrish44]

Jaylon was usually strong against the inside run

He definitely made mistakes, but overall was very strong there

He had to make up for a lot of Schmidt's issues.....where he knew where to be but simply wasn't able to get there or make the play once he did get there

As someone who has spent considerable time evaluating the games, I disagree. I think he often didn't do a good job of attacking linemen when he needed to. He would get caught looking for the ballcarrier when the ballcarrier was still a threat to attack his gap. This was most prevalent on inside zone runs from one back sets. He also blew his coverage numerous times -- these were things that weren't pointed out by the TV announcers.

Also, he didn't have to make up for Schmidt. That's not what football is. Its not t-ball where four of the infielders sucks and there's on ly one kid who can run and throw the baseball. Schmidt's play has almost nothing to do with Jaylon's.

Great athlete and a good player, far from great IMO though.

 

[FightingIrish44]

Jaylon Smith is a consensus first round talent, on every watch list and all american 1st or 2nd team that exists ... he has something like 125 tackles despite having no defensive line ... this is the worst possible argument you can make.

The difference between ND and say an Alabama, OSU, FSU, etc. is that they have 5+ of these guys on their defense at any one time.

Also, any defense looks mistake prone when they are getting helplessly thrown around like ragdolls ..

Well, we'll see where he gets drafted. Another thing, guys often get drafted on their potential and where they fit into a team's scheme. Jaylon plays inside linebacker. My bet is he plays outside linebacker in the NFL because he's a great athelte.

Worst argument to make? How? You're using statistics to make your agrument and a league that often drafts on potential. I'm not making the claim that he's a bad football player. I'm making the claim that he's average playing inside the tackle box against the inside run. You can't use statistics to refute OR support that claim.

 

[FightingIrish44]

compare wisconsin, michigan state, oregon (3 teams that do well despite mediocre recruiting) national championship victories to that of OSU, FSU, Florida, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, (modern powers that are at the top of recruiting ratings every year)

NDs been decimated by injury, defections, and poor recruiting defensively (its the trifecta) .. this will kill any programs ability to win consistently on any given side of the ball .. let alone win a national championship.

I agree with everything you said. I'm just making the point that you don't need four and five stars to play good fundamental football -- you don't even need three stars -- that's because good fundamental football has little to do with size and athelticism, which is largely what recruiting rankings are.

 

[chaseball]

WDE - Trumbetti (4*, 93.5,143rd) / Randolph (4*, 90.5, 249th)
NT - Jones (4*, 93.5, 148th) / Cage (4*, 89.5, 300th)
DT - Tillery (4*, 93.0, 158th) / Hayes (4*, 90.5, 217th)
SDE - Rochell (4*, 94.5, 115th) / Blkenship (4*, 90.0, 268th)
WLB - Coney (4*, 89.5, 311th) / Barajas (4*, 94.0, 137th)
MLB - Morgan (4*, 97.5, 54th) / Martini (3*, 88.5, 364th)
SLB - Onwaulu (4*, 89.5, 305th) / Bilal (4*, 92.0, 184th)
CB - Russell (4*,94.0, 145th) / Watkins (4*, 92.5, 177th)
CB - Luke (4*, 93.5, 142nd) / Coleman (3*, 86.0, 686th)
NB - Crawford (4*, 94.5, 113th) / Tranquil (4*, 89.5, 277th)
FS - Redfield (5*, 98.5 , 30th) / Butler (4*, 89.0, 332nd)
SS - Avery (4*,90.5,217th) / Tranquil (4*, 89.5, 277th)

If you accept that as the 2-Deep (and I think it's a pretty fair "best guess")

This is not the 2 deep and i dont accept it and we don't have to guess. This is the 2 deep, and this is the rivals ratings for each player:

Here was NDs real depth chart this season (bolded means the player was more than a garbage time player):

Defensive Line:
DE - Okwara (5.7) / Trumbetti (5.7) / Randolph (5.9/LB transfer)
DE - Rochell (5.9) / Blankenship (5.7) / Bonner (5.6)
NT - Cage (5.7) / Tillery (5.9/OL transfer) / Matuska (5.7/TE transfer) / Jones (5.8/injured)
DT - Day (5.8) / Hayes (5.8) / Treadway (5.7) / Taylor (5.7)

Linebackers:
OLB - Jaylon (6.1) / Coney (5.9) / Barajas (5.8)
MLB - Schmidt (NR) / Morgan (5.9) / Grace (5.7)
OLB - Onwaulu (5.8/WR Transfer) / Martini (5.5) / Bilal (5.8)

Coney, Bilal, & Barajas are all FR ... it was the many misses in the 12/13/14 recruiting classes that really crippled ND here, combined with Randolphs lack of development & Grace's basically career ending injury.

Cornerbacks:
CB - Russell (5.8/RB transfer) / Watkins (5.8) / White (5.6)
CB - Luke (5.9) / Butler (5.6) / Coleman (5.6)

Poor recruiting here was saved by Russell's transfer from RB to CB back in 2012 ... and by the Cody Riggs transfer from Florida last year. Hopefully we can continue to band aid this unit together and get results going forward.

Safeties:
FS - Redfield (6.1) / Farley (5.5) / Fertitta (5.6)
SS - Shumate (5.8) / Nicky Baratti (5.7) / Tranquil (5.7/injured)

Breaking it down:
5 star = 2
4 star (high) = 0
4 star = 2
4 star (low) = 4
3 star (high) = 2
3 star = 1
3 star (low) = 2
NR = 1

 

[chaseball]

I agree with everything you said. I'm just making the point that you don't need four and five stars to play good fundamental football -- you don't even need three stars -- that's because good fundamental football has little to do with size and athelticism, which is largely what recruiting rankings are.

point taken

 

[twalsh]

our competition has 5 stars everywhere on their defense.

Now you've gone to la la land. Seriously?

 

[chaseball]

Now you've gone to la la land. Seriously?

NDs competition is the top 5-7 programs likely in play for the top 4 playoff spots, and ultimately the national championship games.

More often than not: Alabama, OSU, Florida, FSU, LSU, USC, etc. (modern powerhouses are going to be the gate keepers to those spots).

 

[TheDecker]

I'm only interested on being enlightened/educated ... ignoring facts would be counter productive to achieving that goal .. im really not that combative .. i just have issue with people choosing to argue in the face of mounting evidence.

your entire 2 deep is mired in error ... maybe half of those guys were in the 2 deep ... the fact of the matter is ND didn't have a 2 deep this year ... which again goes back to poor recruiting and injury decimation

You don't read so well, do you?

That's a project of the 2016 2-Deep, since you're talking about us not having recruited enough talent to compete on defense

That 2-Deep isn't mired with errors at all, and is about as good of a guess that anyone outside of the Gug can get

 

[TheDecker]

This is not the 2 deep and i dont accept it and we don't have to guess. This is the 2 deep, and this is the rivals ratings for each player:

Here was NDs real depth chart this season (bolded means the player was more than a garbage time player):

Defensive Line:
DE - Okwara (5.7) / Trumbetti (5.7) / Randolph (5.9/LB transfer)
DE - Rochell (5.9) / Blankenship (5.7) / Bonner (5.6)
NT - Cage (5.7) / Tillery (5.9/OL transfer) / Matuska (5.7/TE transfer) / Jones (5.8/injured)
DT - Day (5.8) / Hayes (5.8) / Treadway (5.7) / Taylor (5.7)

Linebackers:
OLB - Jaylon (6.1) / Coney (5.9) / Barajas (5.8)
MLB - Schmidt (NR) / Morgan (5.9) / Grace (5.7)
OLB - Onwaulu (5.8/WR Transfer) / Martini (5.5) / Bilal (5.8)

Coney, Bilal, & Barajas are all FR ... it was the many misses in the 12/13/14 recruiting classes that really crippled ND here, combined with Randolphs lack of development & Grace's basically career ending injury.

Cornerbacks:
CB - Russell (5.8/RB transfer) / Watkins (5.8) / White (5.6)
CB - Luke (5.9) / Butler (5.6) / Coleman (5.6)

Poor recruiting here was saved by Russell's transfer from RB to CB back in 2012 ... and by the Cody Riggs transfer from Florida last year. Hopefully we can continue to band aid this unit together and get results going forward.

Safeties:
FS - Redfield (6.1) / Farley (5.5) / Fertitta (5.6)
SS - Shumate (5.8) / Nicky Baratti (5.7) / Tranquil (5.7/injured)

Breaking it down:
5 star = 2
4 star (high) = 0
4 star = 2
4 star (low) = 4
3 star (high) = 2
3 star = 1
3 star (low) = 2
NR = 1

Again with your pitiful Mike Farrell rankings and extreme stupidity

There is a reason everyone outside of you respects a wider based average for statistical accuracy........the composite rankings are simply MUCH better than the Farrell rankings

And that's not the 2-Deep for 2016 nor is it the 2-Deep that was recruited for 2015......so it's completely invalid to a point related to recruited talent

Finally, you show your complete and total lack of any knowledge when you refer to a Top150 player as a "low 4*"....that's simply idiotic




You really shouldn't talk about things you understand this poorly

 

[TheDecker]

I haven't seen someone with this poor of an understanding of the recruiting landscape and roster composition run his mouth so much in a very long time

Chase is impressive in that regard

 

[TheDecker]

I can't decide what I like more:

• Listing a Senior DE who will be an NFL Draft Pick at DE as a 3*, to show we don't have talent on defense (great analysis...)
• Basing your rankings only on what Mike Farrell says, because an industry respected consensus ranking "isn't as good" (beyond comical)
• Remove injured players from a list of recruited talent (totally illogical)

It's all just pure gold

 

[twalsh]

NDs competition is the top 5-7 programs likely in play for the top 4 playoff spots, and ultimately the national championship games.

More often than not: Alabama, OSU, Florida, FSU, LSU, USC, etc. (modern powerhouses are going to be the gate keepers to those spots).

There is not a team in the country that has 5-stars "all over their defense". Not one.

 

[onlyonenow]

fun watching Chase get owned.