the decline of the defense in the last year and a half. While the first half of the 2014 season started off good for defense and a weak offensive team of Texas this year, most other games have seemed to be struggles. There were moments of good d plays but a real lack of consistency. This is probably one of the worst tackling teams I have watched at ND. So many misplays in d backfield. I don't know if the answer is a change in Vangorder going or Van Gorder needing to make d simpler than his complexities.He needs to work on fundamentals of tackling and backfield coverages. I think letting him go might be disruptive as ND lost Diaco just a few years ago. We need stability in coordinator of defense. ND needs some adjustments on offensive side too but nearly as much on defense. I understand all the injuries ND had to deal with but others stepped in.It's more the schemes than lack of talent. What are your thoughts without becoming personal about it? Healthy criticism is good . Please put your two cents in as we are all ND fans and care about our Irish. I like the talent ND has brought in but it is being held back or underutilized to it's strengths. It has to move forward for ND to be considered in top 4 since they aren't conference bound.Coach Kelly has done a great job but our offense can only carry us so far. I don't want ND to resemble Oregon.
I think the majority of ND fans care about....
- Thread starter Tru2Irish
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BK works with BVG and the entire Defensive staff to rework the defense. That's the most likely happening.
I know a lot of people point to the DB's and rightly so because they were not good, but the LB's played just as poorly. It's far more evident with DB because when they make a mistake its usually leads to a big play.
Watch the LBs and you'll see in every game they miss assignments, don't fill the gaps, pre and post snap confusion. IMO, the LB play was poor as well, it's just not as obvious.
Watch the LBs and you'll see in every game they miss assignments, don't fill the gaps, pre and post snap confusion. IMO, the LB play was poor as well, it's just not as obvious.
^ agree, the real weaknss was LB play. But the DB's play too loose. DB's cannot give up 12-15 yrds on routes.
Tackling. How many missed tackles did we make? Often hit the ball carrier or receiver and just bounce off. Do not seem to hold on like those on top defense teams do. Even Temple tackles better than we do.
To me it looks like our guys often are trying to make picture book tackles … going all out trying to crush the QB or ball carrier … but if they slow down, step aside or change direction, our guys just go flying by and end up having to try to make arm tackles (this leads to injuries).
To me it looks like our guys often are trying to make picture book tackles … going all out trying to crush the QB or ball carrier … but if they slow down, step aside or change direction, our guys just go flying by and end up having to try to make arm tackles (this leads to injuries).
I agree. His athleticism allowed him to make some great plays, but I think he struggled defending the inside run.
Tackling, in general, needs work.
Eye discipline from safeties. They need to stay focused on what their keys are doing.
I do think the defensive playbook needs simplification too. Just too many times guys were not doing what they were supposed to do.
I've seen people on here annoyed with ND dropping lineman into coverage. There's nothing inherently wrong with that in the same way there's nothing inherently wrong with just a standard four man rush with zone or man behind it. The issue always comes down to execution. If ND throws that out of the playbook, it will just be for the purpose of simplifying things. Doubt we'll see that though.
Jaylon was not used to his potential. He should have been given more leeway to disrupt.
His assignment should have been to 1. get the QB and 2.pursuit. ND screwed this one up instead sending Schmidt? WTH was BVG thinking!
I guess by definition, none, said the wise guy. But yes, tackling was atrocious. I don't know it was for the reasons you say--I saw a lot of poor form and guys trying to arm tackle.
Losing Tranquil was a huge loss. Same with Russel. The last 5 minutes of the Georgia Tech game raised concerns that came to the forefront in our season finale.
the problem with the defense begins and ends with lack of athletes ...
we recruited way better on offense the last 3 years and it showed in the stats ...
we were decimated by bad recruiting compounded by bad injuries at positions of need.
its not eye discipline, its not assignment sound, its a simple matter of lacking the quality of horses required to perform consistently enough to win against elite teams who have elite horses.
could we have had a better coach? sure .. BVG seems pretty mediocre to me .. but coordinators in general have been proven over and over to have marginal impact on the big picture of a programs success or failure.
saban, meyer, (enter any successful college football coach here) win regardless of coordinator turnover. why? because they dominate in recruiting and develop scarcely talented elite athletes .. its that simple
we recruited way better on offense the last 3 years and it showed in the stats ...
we were decimated by bad recruiting compounded by bad injuries at positions of need.
its not eye discipline, its not assignment sound, its a simple matter of lacking the quality of horses required to perform consistently enough to win against elite teams who have elite horses.
could we have had a better coach? sure .. BVG seems pretty mediocre to me .. but coordinators in general have been proven over and over to have marginal impact on the big picture of a programs success or failure.
saban, meyer, (enter any successful college football coach here) win regardless of coordinator turnover. why? because they dominate in recruiting and develop scarcely talented elite athletes .. its that simple
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Recruiting and injuries haven't helped. Now, go back and watch the Temple and UMass games. Whole bunch of mistakes that have NOTHING to do with size and athleticism. Missed assignments because guys are doing the wrong thing.
You saying its got nothing to with eye discipline and missed assingments shows how clueless you are. Have you gone back and evaluated games to make that determination? Do you understanf x's and o's? If not, then stop making the claim that blown assingnments aren't the issue.
Even without you knowing x's and o's, how about all of the huge chunk plays off of trick plays? What do you attribute that too, our guys not running sub 3 second 40's?
That's great that you want to be blind and just say its a lack of recruiting and the coaches can do no wrong. Try learning the game and taking the time to evaluate. You'll probably come to a different conclusion.
yes fundamentals are important .. but relative to quality of size/speed/strength/skill of athletes .. it means very little.
the best teams in the country, the teams that win it all, have all dominated recruiting the last 5+ years .. its no accident.
ND was decimated by injury, and was very thin on defense, and recruited very poorly on defense the last 4 years. all of this adds up to the defensive results we've seen.
the great knute rockne would look bad with the current rotation of defensive players we have right now.
the best teams in the country, the teams that win it all, have all dominated recruiting the last 5+ years .. its no accident.
ND was decimated by injury, and was very thin on defense, and recruited very poorly on defense the last 4 years. all of this adds up to the defensive results we've seen.
the great knute rockne would look bad with the current rotation of defensive players we have right now.
Completely disagree with this
We have 5* and 4* players at literally every single defensive position
The issue is that we're not utilizing them and their skills as effectively as we need to.
With the complexity and "right before the play" flexibility of the scheme we're trying to run, we're slowing down our athletes (Redfield) and even worse we're forcing ourselves to play limited athletes that can actually understand what we're doing (Schmidt)
We have more than enough talent to be a very good defense in 2016....we just need to let the defense play to their strenghts
You want to know what 5 & 4 star defensive players at every position looks like? see OSU, FSU, USC, Alabama recruiting classes.
ND has huge gaps in their defensive recruiting ..
ND has guys who are 4 stars at other positions who transferred out of desperation/lack of bodies, huge falloffs from 1st team to 2nd team all over the front 7 .. etc. their 2 deep 4 star talent are freshmen (not seasoned seniors that can actually take regular snaps and be apart of the rotation) ... a defense is only as strong as its weakest link
NDs defense is porous because of porous recruiting on the defensive side of the ball .. and because of sweeping injuries that exposed their lack of depth on that side of the ball as well.
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another couple of points that need to be exclaimed:
+ not all 4 stars are equal (there's actually 3 tiers of 4 star players .. ND does well with the lowest tier of 4 stars .. where Alabama, FSU, USC, OSU rack up on the highest tier top 100 nationally rated ones)
+ ND has two 5 star athletes on defense (Redfield who has been a huge bust, and Jaylon Smith) our competition has 5 stars everywhere on their defense, and the guys that bust get replaced by another 5 star waiting for an opportunity, or a 4 star who was a borderline 5 star)
NDs healthy 2nd team is a huge drop off from their first team ... littered with the level of talent that would rival that of an AAC team.
+ not all 4 stars are equal (there's actually 3 tiers of 4 star players .. ND does well with the lowest tier of 4 stars .. where Alabama, FSU, USC, OSU rack up on the highest tier top 100 nationally rated ones)
+ ND has two 5 star athletes on defense (Redfield who has been a huge bust, and Jaylon Smith) our competition has 5 stars everywhere on their defense, and the guys that bust get replaced by another 5 star waiting for an opportunity, or a 4 star who was a borderline 5 star)
NDs healthy 2nd team is a huge drop off from their first team ... littered with the level of talent that would rival that of an AAC team.
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We've gone through this before
The depth chart is almost exclusively 5*/4* recruits....and most of the remaining 3*'s have either developed into NFL prospects (Okwara) or are the seniors you mention (Schmidt)
Schmidt is really the only starter on the defense that lacks the necessary talent
Talent is not a problem on the ND defense............how it's being utilized is
If you list out the expected 2016
In reality, there are a heck of a lot more than 3 tiers of 4* players......you're just tied to Mike Farrell's mediocre rating system for some reason
It's still far from perfect, but if you look at the composite rankings of our defensive 2-deep for 2016, you see how much talent is available
In reality, there are a heck of a lot more than 3 tiers of 4* players......you're just tied to Mike Farrell's mediocre rating system for some reason
It's still far from perfect, but if you look at the composite rankings of our defensive 2-deep for 2016, you see how much talent is available
I agee with Decker. Utilization of talent has not been maximized at ND on d side. Jaylon could have been more disruptive had he been used to his potential. Rochelle came on this year which was good but linebackers left to many gaps for players on average teams to look like stars. D backs are a whole issue themselves and I don't believe Lyght was allowed to totally teach them.
do you really want to continue to debate NDs defensive recruiting over the last 3 years vs that of the top teams in the country? seriously .. i lose all respect for your opinion here. Composite ratings are bad because they include two systems that are under funded and eroding (ESPN & Scout.com). Its also not just ratings, its injury decimation on top of poor recruiting.
The front 7 is a huge mess .. the fact that ND is 10-2 with this front 7 is a testament to Jaylon Smith's godly range and BKs & BVGs godly patch job performance. This defense has been duct tape together since the 3rd week of the season. we basically have 5 players for 14 positions on the front 7 who never get rotated out due talent drop off/injury/etc.
I don't have the time to dig through every team's depth chart to make a point that is intuitively obvious .. there's a major correlation between defensive success at the FBS level and quantity & quality of highly rated players recruited defensively. NDs been really bad there, and so have their results as a defense as a result.
The front 7 is a huge mess .. the fact that ND is 10-2 with this front 7 is a testament to Jaylon Smith's godly range and BKs & BVGs godly patch job performance. This defense has been duct tape together since the 3rd week of the season. we basically have 5 players for 14 positions on the front 7 who never get rotated out due talent drop off/injury/etc.
I don't have the time to dig through every team's depth chart to make a point that is intuitively obvious .. there's a major correlation between defensive success at the FBS level and quantity & quality of highly rated players recruited defensively. NDs been really bad there, and so have their results as a defense as a result.
of course .. you are an ND fan with bias ...
if ND was recruiting like OSU, Bama, FSU, Auburn, LSU, and USC on the defensive side of the ball you would agree with my point ... but they are not.
It's easier as a fan to cope with the idea that a simple coaching change will fix this problem ... its harder to understand/cope as a fan that there are major foundational issues that are the cause for the problems ... (NDs inability to attract top flight talent due to administrative restrictions, or simply a lack of interest, etc. for example)
Chase, our DB's are all highly regarded guys with plenty of playing experience. They're not playing well. You're making sweeping generalizations because our roster isn't stacked with four and five stars. I'm very happy eeith the season considering the injuries, but the guys are making too many MISTAKES. Not plays with they're not big enough or strong enough or fast enough, but plays where they don't do their assignment.
How do teams like Wisconsin and Michigan State turn out good teams when their recruiting rankings aren't that of Alabama? They coach their players up.
Not saying Kelly is a bad coach or anything, just that defense is making a lot of mistakes that don't have anything to do with athletic ability. You can't just dismiss it because of recruiting, especially when the DB's are all highly regarded guys and are good athletes but are the ones making these big mistakes.
How do teams like Wisconsin and Michigan State turn out good teams when their recruiting rankings aren't that of Alabama? They coach their players up.
Not saying Kelly is a bad coach or anything, just that defense is making a lot of mistakes that don't have anything to do with athletic ability. You can't just dismiss it because of recruiting, especially when the DB's are all highly regarded guys and are good athletes but are the ones making these big mistakes.
Another thing...Jaylon Smith, a shiny five star, lots of mental errors even though he was a consensus five star. I'm also of the opinion that he struggles to defend the inside run. Recruiting stars are great, but they don't tell the whole story.
compare wisconsin, michigan state, oregon (3 teams that do well despite mediocre recruiting) national championship victories to that of OSU, FSU, Florida, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, (modern powers that are at the top of recruiting ratings every year)
NDs been decimated by injury, defections, and poor recruiting defensively (its the trifecta) .. this will kill any programs ability to win consistently on any given side of the ball .. let alone win a national championship.
Jaylon Smith is a consensus first round talent, on every watch list and all american 1st or 2nd team that exists ... he has something like 125 tackles despite having no defensive line ... this is the worst possible argument you can make.
The difference between ND and say an Alabama, OSU, FSU, etc. is that they have 5+ of these guys on their defense at any one time.
Also, any defense looks mistake prone when they are getting helplessly thrown around like ragdolls ..
your 2 deep depth chart you provided in that other thread didn't exclude players out for injuries, and had guys conveniently out of position to fit the narrative/point of your argument. it also included 2 systems that don't hold their weight compared to the industry leaders (24/7 & Rivals) it would be like using a composite search engine instead of Google even though Google has by far the best accuracy in serving relevant results.
Just look at the composite rankings of the 2016 2-Deep:
Pos - Name (Star Rank, Comp. Rating, Comp. Rank)
WDE - Trumbetti (4*, 93.5,143rd) / Randolph (4*, 90.5, 249th)
NT - Jones (4*, 93.5, 148th) / Cage (4*, 89.5, 300th)
DT - Tillery (4*, 93.0, 158th) / Hayes (4*, 90.5, 217th)
SDE - Rochell (4*, 94.5, 115th) / Blkenship (4*, 90.0, 268th)
WLB - Coney (4*, 89.5, 311th) / Barajas (4*, 94.0, 137th)
MLB - Morgan (4*, 97.5, 54th) / Martini (3*, 88.5, 364th)
SLB - Onwaulu (4*, 89.5, 305th) / Bilal (4*, 92.0, 184th)
CB - Russell (4*,94.0, 145th) / Watkins (4*, 92.5, 177th)
CB - Luke (4*, 93.5, 142nd) / Coleman (3*, 86.0, 686th)
NB - Crawford (4*, 94.5, 113th) / Tranquil (4*, 89.5, 277th)
FS - Redfield (5*, 98.5 , 30th) / Butler (4*, 89.0, 332nd)
SS - Avery (4*,90.5,217th) / Tranquil (4*, 89.5, 277th)
If you accept that as the 2-Deep (and I think it's a pretty fair "best guess")
Starters
5* - 1
4* - 11
3* - 0
2- Deep
5* - 1
4* - 23
3* - 2
And when you want to break it down further
Starters Average Composite Rating - 93.50 (~130th Overall Ranking)
2nd String Average Composite Rating - 90.125 (~250th Overall Ranking)
2-Deep Average Composite Rating - 91.55 (~200th Overall Ranking)
To put even a little more context on this........The recruit from this class that would match our "average" for the entire 2-Deep for next year:
Kahlid Kareem - 4*, 91.8, 195th Overall (Flipped from Alabama)
Pos - Name (Star Rank, Comp. Rating, Comp. Rank)
WDE - Trumbetti (4*, 93.5,143rd) / Randolph (4*, 90.5, 249th)
NT - Jones (4*, 93.5, 148th) / Cage (4*, 89.5, 300th)
DT - Tillery (4*, 93.0, 158th) / Hayes (4*, 90.5, 217th)
SDE - Rochell (4*, 94.5, 115th) / Blkenship (4*, 90.0, 268th)
WLB - Coney (4*, 89.5, 311th) / Barajas (4*, 94.0, 137th)
MLB - Morgan (4*, 97.5, 54th) / Martini (3*, 88.5, 364th)
SLB - Onwaulu (4*, 89.5, 305th) / Bilal (4*, 92.0, 184th)
CB - Russell (4*,94.0, 145th) / Watkins (4*, 92.5, 177th)
CB - Luke (4*, 93.5, 142nd) / Coleman (3*, 86.0, 686th)
NB - Crawford (4*, 94.5, 113th) / Tranquil (4*, 89.5, 277th)
FS - Redfield (5*, 98.5 , 30th) / Butler (4*, 89.0, 332nd)
SS - Avery (4*,90.5,217th) / Tranquil (4*, 89.5, 277th)
If you accept that as the 2-Deep (and I think it's a pretty fair "best guess")
Starters
5* - 1
4* - 11
3* - 0
2- Deep
5* - 1
4* - 23
3* - 2
And when you want to break it down further
Starters Average Composite Rating - 93.50 (~130th Overall Ranking)
2nd String Average Composite Rating - 90.125 (~250th Overall Ranking)
2-Deep Average Composite Rating - 91.55 (~200th Overall Ranking)
To put even a little more context on this........The recruit from this class that would match our "average" for the entire 2-Deep for next year:
Kahlid Kareem - 4*, 91.8, 195th Overall (Flipped from Alabama)
You realize the following:
- You don't get to count injuries into a "We don't recruit talent" argument....unless you assume we're recruiting injury prone players
- We have at least 5 NFL Draft Picks in our initial/recruited starting Defensive Front 7 (Jaylon, Day, Okwara, Rochell, J. Jones)
- We have a large amount of 4* and even Top100 players throughout the defensive 2-Deep
You can just keep saying it, but anyone that can read is able to see you're totally incorrect
this is not a fair depiction of NDs 2 deep ... you have guys in positions who saw no snaps or less than 10% of all defensive snaps this year ... SMH
also .. again .. composite ratings include 2 systems (espn & scout.com) that are irrelevant.
I'm sorry, but a quick analysis of the recruiting results on defense shows that you're simply making things up
The facts are not your friend
Yes, some schools have recruited more talent on defense than we have (Alabama, Ohio State, LSU, Florida State) but these schools are far and few betweeen
Beyond that, the talent we have recruited is more than enough to still beat these teams
(Alabama has out-recruited Ohio State.....but lost to them, USC has out-recruited Washington.....but lost to them and us, etc..)
That's a very fair look at the 2-Deep for 2016
Again, the composite rankings are in fact more accurate than the Rivals rankings, as with any standardization process, it balances out the extreme outliers from the Rivals database (Okwara was Rivals 3* but a Composite 4*....and is now an NFL Draftable Player, etc.)
I get that you don't like the facts being present, because they kill your argument
But that's sort of your issue...............the facts completely disprove everything you're trying to say
my argument has always been that due to BOTH poor recruiting AND injury .. ND has been left thin/decimated defensively and have suffered poor defensive results as a result
Jaylon was usually strong against the inside run
He definitely made mistakes, but overall was very strong there
He had to make up for a lot of Schmidt's issues.....where he knew where to be but simply wasn't able to get there or make the play once he did get there
That's because you're making a point about "we don't recruit enough talent".........recruiting isn't affected by injuries
That would be a completely different argument.........."We're having an Unreasonable Number of Injuries" argument
I know these facts really burn you though, so take your time with them
lol how many national championships have Washington won?
individual games are highly susceptible to variance ... when you look at the over arching success of programs (national championship victories, winning percentage over a number of years) the correlation between recruiting results & production on the field line up much more closely
individual games are highly susceptible to variance ... when you look at the over arching success of programs (national championship victories, winning percentage over a number of years) the correlation between recruiting results & production on the field line up much more closely
ND has been hurt by injuries, no question
But we've recruited more than enough talent to field a very good defense, and that will continue to be true moving forward
That's what the facts show, but for some reason it's something you're not capable of understanding
no its not a different argument at all ..
people are constantly bashing BVG and calling for his head like an angry mob ... my argument is that the problems go beyond BVG ... we've failed to recruit defensively at a level good enough to compete for national championships ... and when you compound that with injury it only exacerbates the problem on that side of the ball.
Once again, I get you don't like that I'm tearing your terrible unsound argument apart........but try not to keep changing topics
- Notre Dame isn't bringing the most defensive talent in the country (Alabama, USC, LSU, and Ohio State are bringing in more)
- However, Notre Dame is bringing in one of the most talented defensive depth charts (based on recruiting) and it's more than enough talent to beat the teams that are bringing in even more (Alabama, Ohio State, etc.) if used properly
- Examples of "enough talent being used properly" being able to beat "even more talent" can be seen in Ohio State v. Alabama, Notre Dame v. USC, Washington v. USC, etc
Unfortunately, your asserstion is completely and totally invalidated by the facts.......which I've already posted in this thread
But as long as you ignore all the facts and make up whatever you, you have an argument.........
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