Glad we got the W, but....

[Irish_inPSU]

I'm not going to get into it too much. We all know what we saw today. I really like Coach Freeman, he's a good man. But he's in over his head and I think everyone in the country agrees that ND is not the place for a coach learning on the job.

But I will say this and I will stick with this statement. ND will never contend and beat the powerhouse programs in college football until they have a program that is a power running offense and hard nose stout defense. When is the last time ND had an offense that could run over people when they needed to? Instead, we're stuck with these "outscheme" them type of offenses that when it works, we look brilliant, but when we it doesn't, we can't fall back to lining up and running the football. I mean for the love of all things holy, most of the time our O lines are big, lumbering and slow.. the one thing they should always be able to do is run the football with acceptable effectiveness. These cute offensive gameplan type of offenses need to go.

 

[savvyandsassier]

For the most part, our entire starting OL ends up playing in the NFL, when they finally graduate.

So that's the big takeaway, in the year 2022, when even Bama is now running a hi-tech, finesse passing offense, and we need to go back to three yards and a cloud of dust. But it'd probably be good for ND's 'brand', and isn't that really the entire purpose of ND football anyway at this point? Brand maintenance....

I guess if we do end up firing MF, we should probably go for Bret Bielma, or whatever his name is. Illinois is off to a good start, I think....

 

[raulduke_007]

As it stands right now were gonna struggle to go .500 if Freeman can get this team to win 8-9 games i would be thrilled.

 

[banmate6]

For the most part, our entire starting OL ends up playing in the NFL, when they finally graduate.

So that's the big takeaway, in the year 2022, when even Bama is now running a hi-tech, finesse passing offense, and we need to go back to three yards and a cloud of dust. But it'd probably be good for ND's 'brand', and isn't that really the entire purpose of ND football anyway at this point? Brand maintenance....

I guess if we do end up firing MF, we should probably go for Bret Bielma, or whatever his name is. Illinois is off to a good start, I think....

CBK tried running a more varied, advanced, spread, and hi-tech offense. If I recall, things got better when he did less game day play calling and the team featured more power run. I don't think smash mouth ever goes out of style...but, as we keep discussing, you need the players, really for any style.

I do agree ND seems suited to a power running game for many reasons. We saw some glimmers of it today in the 2nd half as the OL improved and Estime bulled for yards. One can hope.

Fun day. I'll take the win.

 

[d1042]

No buts allowed

 

[raulduke_007]

The problem with power running & tough D formula is the Wisky, Michigan problem. Works really well against 90% of CFB but not against the elite teams. Georgia and the 2010's Bama team can get away with it because they are chalked full of 5 star talent on both sides of the ball, but ever since Bama lost to Clemson they went away from that style in favor of the spread/air raid style. Georgia got lucky they play in th SEC East which has been down the past few years. Bama exposed them in the SEC Champ game and most likely win the Natty if their 2 top WR's dont get injured.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Plus I just don't think we're going to do that. I mean it's an option but it's just not one we're going to pick.

It doesn't mean you can't have a good running game with 1000-yd backs, BK certainly did, and at this point BK's offense is probably not that state of the art any more, like it was when he first got to ND. So even though we could have a run-first, run-heavy offense, we just won't switch to that style of play, tempting as it may be.

But it was very cool that our OL came alive, at least for a couple drives, and helped us get the win. That was very nice....

 

[tkirish]

First and foremost the offense needs to have an identity. So far it’s been a try this or try that and see what works. It all starts in practice. You have a QB who has a lot of moxie but is limited in ability. Receivers are below average. Terrific tight end. An offensive line that has struggled but may have found some hope. Thunder and lightning at RB. So if I’m Rees, I would run run run with those two backs. Go play action to the tight end or screens and crossing routes. When they creep up pick your spots and take a shot or two deep. It’s pretty vanilla. But it can work. Maybe , just maybe they can finally get a coherent offense together. Still looks like an uphill battle. But at least the win gives them hope.

 

[savvyandsassier]

You know what, if the passing game is so poor this season that we simply can't win with it, and can't get first downs.... maybe that's the way to go. Whatever works, right?

But that's just not where you want your offense to be, bigger picture....

And does Drew Pyne have moxie? I didn't know that.....

 

[burmafrd1943]

Pyne did pretty well; there was a lot of pressure on him.

Coan did pretty well for us; that type of QB can get the job done.

 

[TheSodFather]

The problem with power running & tough D formula is the Wisky, Michigan problem. Works really well against 90% of CFB but not against the elite teams. Georgia and the 2010's Bama team can get away with it because they are chalked full of 5 star talent on both sides of the ball, but ever since Bama lost to Clemson they went away from that style in favor of the spread/air raid style. Georgia got lucky they play in th SEC East which has been down the past few years. Bama exposed them in the SEC Champ game and most likely win the Natty if their 2 top WR's dont get injured.

If that style gets 9-10 wins and salvages the season I’m all for it.

They can still open it up enough to provide more balance than Wisky or Iowa. They just dont have the roster to be OSU right now.

Big picture they will eventually need to expand but it’s going to remain limited until Carr is ready

 

[savvyandsassier]

You know your program is not in a good place when your future is banking on a HS junior QB, who you are going to talk into skipping his senior year of HS because you couldn't recruit a QB in the current class, any QB, at ND, and all the rest of your QBs apparently suck. And so you're going to old-school power-run the ball for lack of anything better until then....

But we did win today, so that's good....

 

[IrishMike409]

You know your program is not in a good place when your future is banking on a HS junior QB, who you are going to talk into skipping his senior year of HS because you couldn't recruit a QB in the current class, any QB, at ND, and all the rest of your QBs apparently suck. And so you're going to old-school power-run the ball for lack of anything better until then....

But we did win today, so that's good....

Best bet is the transfer portal for a 23 QB.

 

[TheSodFather]

You know your program is not in a good place when your future is banking on a HS junior QB, who you are going to talk into skipping his senior year of HS because you couldn't recruit a QB in the current class, any QB, at ND, and all the rest of your QBs apparently suck. And so you're going to old-school power-run the ball for lack of anything better until then....

But we did win today, so that's good....

You gotta crawl before you ball

 

[mbd11]

It was nice to finally get a win. We're offensively challenged, though. That's for sure.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Best bet is the transfer portal for a 23 QB.

I would tend to agree with that. If our QB situation is deemed that bad at that point, and all faith in Buchner is lost, and Pyne is just not good enough....

You gotta hit the portal...

 

[TheSodFather]

I would tend to agree with that. If our QB situation is deemed that bad at that point, and all faith in Buchner is lost, and Pyne is just not good enough....

You gotta hit the portal...

 

[tkirish]

the portal may be the way to go. If you’re a QB who’s in waiting and you see the ND situation at QB, it might be something to look at.

 

[ftnfan62]

Definitely have to grab 2 QB’s in the portal. Buch might be good but bad health track record and Drew is average. You need to give CJ a year

 

[NDinNJ]

The problem with power running & tough D formula is the Wisky, Michigan problem. Works really well against 90% of CFB but not against the elite teams. Georgia and the 2010's Bama team can get away with it because they are chalked full of 5 star talent on both sides of the ball, but ever since Bama lost to Clemson they went away from that style in favor of the spread/air raid style. Georgia got lucky they play in th SEC East which has been down the past few years. Bama exposed them in the SEC Champ game and most likely win the Natty if their 2 top WR's dont get injured.

Bama has a balanced attack. They are putting up over 200 yards on the ground each week and passing for over 300/game

 

[raulduke_007]

Bama has a balanced attack. They are putting up over 200 yards on the ground each week and passing for over 300/game

Bama was a power running/ elite d when Greg Mac, AJ McCarron, Philip Sims, Coker, ect were there. Saban began switching it to more spread/pass oriented attack when Lane, Sark, took over as OC's. Very difficult to win consistently against elite teams with an old school attack.

 

[banmate6]

Bama has a balanced attack. They are putting up over 200 yards on the ground each week and passing for over 300/game

This.

I still think a power running game is successful. Augmented by of course a great passing attack. Balance.

Some said Wisconsin and Michigan do well with it except against the elite. My view is the elite are simply that much better. Power or passing game. Michigan got zero push against Georgia last year.

It’s the athletes before the scheme.

 

[IrishBeer]

Freeman sucks

 

[4-4-3]

As it stands right now were gonna struggle to go .500 if Freeman can get this team to win 8-9 games i would be thrilled.

Plus, it could also prove to be one of those teams that wins a game or two that wasn't expected, while dropping two or three that were seen as likely wins.

In other words, ALL GAMES may be COMPETITIVE but with UNPREDICTABLE OUTCOMES.

AT BEST, this is a rebuilding season that won't come at too great a price. But regardless, it is MORE IMPORTANTLY a RESTRUCTURING of the PROGRAM, the results of which are UNPREDICTABLE, though I don't expect the next 5 years to match Kelly's previous five, let alone exceed them.

I continue to be as highly SKEPTICAL of Freeman's ability to keep this team at the level Kelly brought it to, and I don't in any way say that as a Kelly apologist. I say it based on the NUMBERS and his RESULTS.

 

[TheSodFather]

Bama was a power running/ elite d when Greg Mac, AJ McCarron, Philip Sims, Coker, ect were there. Saban began switching it to more spread/pass oriented attack when Lane, Sark, took over as OC's. Very difficult to win consistently against elite teams with an old school attack.

The Irish have found a way to win consistently with this approach against non elite teams however.

They don’t have to stay with this approach forever but it seems wise to stay with what works for this particular group until the personnel is present to open it up more

 

[tkirish]

Plus, it could also prove to be one of those teams that wins a game or two that wasn't expected, while dropping two or three that were seen as likely wins.

In other words, ALL GAMES may be COMPETITIVE but with UNPREDICTABLE OUTCOMES.

AT BEST, this is a rebuilding season that won't come at too great a price. But regardless, it is MORE IMPORTANTLY a RESTRUCTURING of the PROGRAM, the results of which are UNPREDICTABLE, though I don't expect the next 5 years to match Kelly's previous five, let alone exceed them.

I continue to be as highly SKEPTICAL of Freeman's ability to keep this team at the level Kelly brought it to, and I don't in any way say that as a Kelly apologist. I say it based on the NUMBERS and his RESULTS.

I agree with this. The main question is this. Can MF be a great head coach? Three games in and signs are not encouraging. We know regardless of what happens this year , MF will be here next year. So though I am not sold on him , I will have an open mind and see how things unfold. The biggest issue on the team is QB play. Freeman needs to get that position addressed after this season. Lastly, Rees should be let go. A veteran offensive coordinator should be brought in. Someone who knows how to get an offense to play fast and score lots f points.

 

[Patrirish]

I agree with this. The main question is this. Can MF be a great head coach? Three games in and signs are not encouraging. We know regardless of what happens this year , MF will be here next year. So though I am not sold on him , I will have an open mind and see how things unfold. The biggest issue on the team is QB play. Freeman needs to get that position addressed after this season. Lastly, Rees should be let go. A veteran offensive coordinator should be brought in. Someone who knows how to get an offense to play fast and score lots f points.

Who do you suggest for OC ?

 

[tkirish]

Who do you suggest for OC ?

Really I have no idea. But I think someone with a good track record and one that can attract great QBs

 

[savvyandsassier]

ND and its coaches are coaching for their careers right about now. That's probably why Rees was freaking out on Drew Pyne. He knows he's toast if this season is a complete washout. Tommy Rees is pretty dopey, but I'm sure he gets at least that much. Regardless of any longterm future hopes and dreams, we go 3-9/4-8 and he's done. And he can go back to doing quality control for some NFL team.

What it will come down to is how much does ND, institutionally, value some sort of inbred, more literal blue blood alum status in and of itself, versus actual coaching competence. Just like you can easily answer the hypothetical question does anyone think MF would have gotten the HC job with the exact same resume, if he wasn't so handsome and appealing and charismatic? It's just as easy to answer the same question posed about Rees, if he wasn't a ND alum. Of course he wouldn't have been retained.

And now it's as if he's almost a burden, an albatross. Something the program is stuck with and must endure. Like the owner's son taking over the company when he is most definitely, laughably not the most qualified for it. Or like a royal prince. And even MF himself who presumably has the authority, must be thinking to himself that he could bring in any OC he wants, and make all this go away, or at least try. And do what any coach would do in this situation, and which quite frankly is his actual job description, that of assembling a top group of lieutenants... and go out make a program-changing hire, because the situation clearly warrants it.

It's the elephant in the room. Is ND that delusional, and that desperate to have a favorite son occupy a prominent role on the coaching staff, that they will risk torching the program to do so. And I only say this because I don't know if MF feels like he even has that authority.....

 

[HRC08]

Good post and I’ll 2nd it; Congrats to CMF on his 1st W. Oh man what else can be said other than this is not a good ND Football team. Is it more on players, coaching or just bad luck with experience/depth? Is it all of those things? Does it even matter?

As it stands right now were gonna struggle to go .500 if Freeman can get this team to win 8-9 games i would be thrilled.

lol

 

[Patrirish]

Really I have no idea. But I think someone with a good track record and one that can attract great QBs

There are probably a good number in the NFL, but I doubt that we could afford them.

 

[buckey]

I'm not going to get into it too much. We all know what we saw today. I really like Coach Freeman, he's a good man. But he's in over his head and I think everyone in the country agrees that ND is not the place for a coach learning on the job.

But I will say this and I will stick with this statement. ND will never contend and beat the powerhouse programs in college football until they have a program that is a power running offense and hard nose stout defense. When is the last time ND had an offense that could run over people when they needed to? Instead, we're stuck with these "outscheme" them type of offenses that when it works, we look brilliant, but when we it doesn't, we can't fall back to lining up and running the football. I mean for the love of all things holy, most of the time our O lines are big, lumbering and slow.. the one thing they should always be able to do is run the football with acceptable effectiveness. These cute offensive gameplan type of offenses need to go.

I thought we did both of those pretty well yesterday

 

[SubwaydomerDFW]

For the most part, our entire starting OL ends up playing in the NFL, when they finally graduate.

So that's the big takeaway, in the year 2022, when even Bama is now running a hi-tech, finesse passing offense, and we need to go back to three yards and a cloud of dust. But it'd probably be good for ND's 'brand', and isn't that really the entire purpose of ND football anyway at this point? Brand maintenance....

I guess if we do end up firing MF, we should probably go for Bret Bielma, or whatever his name is. Illinois is off to a good start, I think....

Why not Paul Chryst? Pat Narduzzi? Let’s see if Dantonio is available?


If you wanna open it up we could just hire Derek Dooley, shit..

You should send your CV to Swarbrick stat.

 

[Irish_inPSU]

I'm old school, I'll admit it. But a power running game, or a running game that is consistent opens up the passing game more and makes it easier on a young QB especially. But if you can't either well enough to consistently move the chains... well, it makes it easy on opposing defenses by not having to sell out to stop the run or sell out to stop the pass. Balanced defensive strategies just make it hard on us.

If you look at the best teams on the country each year, they can run the ball well and play good defense. CFB may have changed in many ways, but that thing still remains true.

Ever since Kelly and maybe even Weiss, ND has had an identity problem, especially on offense. We either didn't have the personnel, or we tried using personnel in schemes they didn't fit into. I think our D will be fine. The O is a mess and I just firmly believe until we decide that we want to recruit and be a run first offense, we're going to struggle against anyone in the top 25.

But then again, ND admins don't appear to be interested in truly being a college football power anymore. I hate to be that guy... but lets be honest with ourselves here. Todays CFB landscape is much much different than during the Holtz days and before. They aren't student athletes anymore, they're athlete students. At least at the top they are. Until ND starts making changes to their policies in order to recruit and play football against these guys, its going to be more of the same for many years to come.

 

[savvyandsassier]

I don't think ND had an identity problem on offense with BK, I don't know where you're getting that from. We had a good, productive, reliable offense that did great, I guess, other than when playing Bama and Clemson.

It is certainly possible that ND could commit itself to more of a blatantly power-running attack, and that would presumably please many ND fans just on principle. But ND's offense up until now has not lacked identity or ability.

So I would not describe your complaint here as being 'honest'. And if by more of the same you mean continued playoff appearances and undefeated regular seasons, then please, more....

 

[4-4-3]

I'm old school, I'll admit it. But a power running game, or a running game that is consistent opens up the passing game more and makes it easier on a young QB especially. But if you can't either well enough to consistently move the chains... well, it makes it easy on opposing defenses by not having to sell out to stop the run or sell out to stop the pass. Balanced defensive strategies just make it hard on us.

If you look at the best teams on the country each year, they can run the ball well and play good defense. CFB may have changed in many ways, but that thing still remains true.

Ever since Kelly and maybe even Weiss, ND has had an identity problem, especially on offense. We either didn't have the personnel, or we tried using personnel in schemes they didn't fit into. I think our D will be fine. The O is a mess and I just firmly believe until we decide that we want to recruit and be a run first offense, we're going to struggle against anyone in the top 25.

But then again, ND admins don't appear to be interested in truly being a college football power anymore. I hate to be that guy... but lets be honest with ourselves here. Todays CFB landscape is much much different than during the Holtz days and before. They aren't student athletes anymore, they're athlete students. At least at the top they are. Until ND starts making changes to their policies in order to recruit and play football against these guys, its going to be more of the same for many years to come.

"But then again, ND admins don't appear to be interested in truly being a college football power anymore. I hate to be that guy... but lets be honest with ourselves here. Todays CFB landscape is much much different than during the Holtz days and before. They aren't student athletes anymore, they're athlete students. At least at the top they are. Until ND starts making changes to their policies in order to recruit and play football against these guys, its going to be more of the same for many years to come."

ANYONE WITH EYES SAW THIS ABOUT HALF WAY INTO THE DAVIE YEARS.

It's simply amazing, though, that IT STILL NEEDS POINTING OUT.

But thank you for doing so. The number of posters who are now OPENLY ADMITTING THIS is ENCOURAGING.

 

[NDblitz]

I'm not going to get into it too much. We all know what we saw today. I really like Coach Freeman, he's a good man. But he's in over his head and I think everyone in the country agrees that ND is not the place for a coach learning on the job.

But I will say this and I will stick with this statement. ND will never contend and beat the powerhouse programs in college football until they have a program that is a power running offense and hard nose stout defense. When is the last time ND had an offense that could run over people when they needed to? Instead, we're stuck with these "outscheme" them type of offenses that when it works, we look brilliant, but when we it doesn't, we can't fall back to lining up and running the football. I mean for the love of all things holy, most of the time our O lines are big, lumbering and slow.. the one thing they should always be able to do is run the football with acceptable effectiveness. These cute offensive gameplan type of offenses need to go.

North Dakota State. They run the ball against anybody.

 

[NDblitz]

I agree with this. The main question is this. Can MF be a great head coach? Three games in and signs are not encouraging. We know regardless of what happens this year , MF will be here next year. So though I am not sold on him , I will have an open mind and see how things unfold. The biggest issue on the team is QB play. Freeman needs to get that position addressed after this season. Lastly, Rees should be let go. A veteran offensive coordinator should be brought in. Someone who knows how to get an offense to play fast and score lots f points.

Marcus Freeman first mistake was keeping Rees. If it was his mistake. He went with an older proven guy on defense. The side of the ball he knows. When in fact it should have been an older proven guy on offense. The side he has no experience coaching.

 

[47WimanND]

For the most part, our entire starting OL ends up playing in the NFL, when they finally graduate.

So that's the big takeaway, in the year 2022, when even Bama is now running a hi-tech, finesse passing offense, and we need to go back to three yards and a cloud of dust. But it'd probably be good for ND's 'brand', and isn't that really the entire purpose of ND football anyway at this point? Brand maintenance....

I guess if we do end up firing MF, we should probably go for Bret Bielma, or whatever his name is. Illinois is off to a good start, I think....

What we really need is a real QB and wide receivers to go with the OL and TEs. When have we had a QB that could slice and dice a good defense. Look at Bama, OSU and GA. They aren't running up and down the field grinding out yards. They are throwing bombs and carving up defenses with crossing routes and ACCURATE passing.

The next thing people here will be wanting is option football again.

 

[47WimanND]

This.

I still think a power running game is successful. Augmented by of course a great passing attack. Balance.

Some said Wisconsin and Michigan do well with it except against the elite. My view is the elite are simply that much better. Power or passing game. Michigan got zero push against Georgia last year.

It’s the athletes before the scheme.

Chicken or the egg? Does the power running game give you the 300 yards per game passing or is it vice versa? It's a valid question because you have to recruit to a style. Of course, if a school has enough money it can buy backs and receivers.