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Do you need an elite QB to win a championship

Without Michael Jordan, Dean Smith is closer to Rollie Massimino than he is to Mike Krysewski (sp?). James Worthy didn’t hurt either. Dean Smith is legendary … he got the best players and he won.
Again, you are proving my point. Without Worthy and Perkins MJ might have ended up playing for the Pacers not the Bulls. Without the great teammates and the championships he would be remembered more like Isaiah Thomas or Carmelo Anthony. A great player but not the GOAT.

Great players want to play for elite coaches. ND needs a great coaching staff. It's possible defensively they have one with Freeman. He seems to be able to recruit great talent for the defense. Can he develop them? We don't know yet. But offensively, not so much. They had a WR, but lost him to the trojans. The recruiting class for 2022 is ranked high, but I don't see many highly ranked players on the offensive side of the ball. And the QB they signed? Not likely to strike fear in their opponents.

At least I keep my language clean.
 
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Again, you are proving my point. Without Worthy and Perkins MJ might have ended up playing for the Pacers not the Bulls. Without the great teammates and the championships he would be remembered more like Isaiah Thomas or Carmelo Anthony. A great player but not the GOAT.

Great players want to play for elite coaches. ND needs a great coaching staff. It's possible defensively they have one with Freeman. He seems to be able to recruit great talent for the defense. Can he develop them? We don't know yet. But offensively, not so much. They had a WR, but lost him to the trojans. The recruiting class for 2022 is ranked high, but I don't see many highly ranked players on the offensive side of the ball. And the QB they signed? Not likely to strike fear in their opponents.

At least I keep my language clean.
Proving your point? Keeping language clean? Sorry you lost me bro. We may not all see it the same way but we all want the same thing. Go Irish.
 
I would 100% want them. However, having them does not mean you win a Championship. A team lead by a Juco transfer beat one of them. 2 of them did not make it to a championship yet.

Does it improve a teams chances by having a player like one of these 3? Definitely!!!

However, it is not a must have. Georgia proved that this season.
 
IF, IF IF !

The fact is that if TB was elite as he claimed he would have beaten Coan out
Wrong!

Again, what do you define as elite?

TB will be a top 10 QB this season. Is that considered elite????
 
Based upon what performance metrics to date, your irrational opinion ?
Watch his high school film.


The young man can make every throw.

He can throw off platform or sit in the pocket.

He can beat you with his legs.

Very poised

High football IQ
 
I would 100% want them. However, having them does not mean you win a Championship. A team lead by a Juco transfer beat one of them. 2 of them did not make it to a championship yet.

Does it improve a teams chances by having a player like one of these 3? Definitely!!!

However, it is not a must have. Georgia proved that this season.
But it's is a must have for us.

That's the part you are missing. It's going over your head. We will never have Georgia talent all over the field

So they can get away with not having that elite qb. We cannot

You are missing that major point
 
Hard ball.

It's a business, and Kelly has always behaved more like a CEO than most would have wanted him to. Most prefer to see coaches principally as educators and builders of character. But a lot of that is projection. Understandable to be sure, and something we've all been prone to.

But then MUCH OF LIFE runs on AMBITION. Particularly in today's world where money, power, place, status and winning TRUMP MOST OTHER THINGS.

Kelly may have disillusioned people, but I don't see him as BLATANTLY OR WILLFULLY having hurt anyone. Some, I think, are simply miffed at him for not buying into the ND mystique. But to me, it was always clear that he wasn't that sort of person. What I saw were opportunist and pragmatist.

I'm quite interested to see how he does at LSU. He handled the ND challenge pretty well. AND IT GOT HIM THE LSU JOB. Let's see what he can do in the SEC. Whole new set of obstacles.

We'll see.
FTR
For some, from early on, his character was the issue. For some it was never the W/L’s. Seems BK is working to prove that at minimum they were perceptive.
 
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But it's is a must have for us.

That's the part you are missing. It's going over your head. We will never have Georgia talent all over the field

So they can get away with not having that elite qb. We cannot

You are missing that major point
So putting Fields on ND last 2020, ND wins a NC?

If ND can get a QB like the 3 you named, they would still struggle to win a championship.

ND 2021 lacked a top secondary and top LBs. If ND had a top 10 secondary and a top 10 LB group, they beat Cincy and are playing for a Championship.

Adding any of the QBs you listed to this ND team does not equal a championship.

That elite QB does not fill the need in the secondary or at LB.

This is a team game. To win a Championship you cannot have such glaring holes ND currently has.
 
So putting Fields on ND last 2020, ND wins a NC?

If ND can get a QB like the 3 you named, they would still struggle to win a championship.

ND 2021 lacked a top secondary and top LBs. If ND had a top 10 secondary and a top 10 LB group, they beat Cincy and are playing for a Championship.

Adding any of the QBs you listed to this ND team does not equal a championship.

That elite QB does not fill the need in the secondary or at LB.

This is a team game. To win a Championship you cannot have such glaring holes ND currently has.
With A Fields or one of those elite, we'd at least have a chance. Give us TL in 2018 and give Clemson Ian Book, I think we win that game.

Without an elite, we have no chance, with an elite we have a decent chance
 
With A Fields or one of those elite, we'd at least have a chance. Give us TL in 2018 and give Clemson Ian Book, I think we win that game.

Without an elite, we have no chance, with an elite we have a decent chance
I get it, I just don’t agree.

Book on Clemson and I believe Clemson still wins. Book was 20/28 218 yards 0 picks.
ND rushed for less than 100 yards.
Book was sacked 5 times.
 
Kelly is the proof point for the idea that if you can fake sincerity you can fake anything. He excused himself from a recruits dinner table to take a phone call to finalize his arrangement then sat back down and finished eating. That’s a level most would not descend to or be proud of. C’est la vie. It’s big boy football and ND knew who Kelly was. He was interviewing for NFL jobs in 2012 BCS bowl lead up while Saban was gameplanning for his destruction.
Yes, it's not only BIG BOY FOOTBALL but a BIG BOY WORLD. And the world is more MERCENARY than SINCERE, all good intentions notwithstanding.

Any time someone is negotiating a new job, they're -- if only implicitly -- betraying their superiors and colleagues throughout the entire process. It's a situation of INESCAPABLE BAD FAITH. But what would be the alternative? Letting everyone know what you're doing? No way. ZERO people actually do that.

As for interviewing for NFL jobs in 2012, Kelly was a HOT COMMODITY and naturally drew interest. What should he have done -- NOT LISTENED? You ALWAYS listen. It's foolish not to.

As for the outcome of the game with Alabama, I don't think Kelly's interviewing was the PIVOTAL element. ND got stomped by a MUCH BETTER TEAM.
 
FTR
For some, from early on, his character was the issue. For some it was never the W/L’s. Seems BK is working to prove that at minimum they were perceptive.
What was so concerning about his character? I never found him that likeable, and his ambition and opportunism were apparent. But he won 73% of his games and graduated his players, many of whom are in the NFL.

What were people expecting? Lou Holtz 2.0?
 
Watch his high school film.


The young man can make every throw.

He can throw off platform or sit in the pocket.

He can beat you with his legs.

Very poised

High football IQ
That’s your basis for declaring him elite ?

Watch his high school film ? ? ?

I have a better metric, How about you watch his game and practice films from this year !

Keep your day job !
 
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That’s your basis for declaring him elite ?

Watch his high school film ? ? ?

I have a better metric, How about you watch his game and practice films from this year !

Keep your day job !
I might add that few high school films can match ANDREW HENDRIX'S. It's phenomenal.

How did THAT turn out?

High school film GUARANTEES NADA.

Plus, Buchner apparently played in a not so competitive a league.

There's still no way to know about him and, as such, no grounds to predict FUTURE GREATNESS or ANYTHING.

We'll see.
 
That’s your basis for declaring him elite ?

Watch his high school film ? ? ?

I have a better metric, How about you watch his game and practice films from this year !

Keep your day job !
We dont have access to practice film

He threw a respectable 58.3 percent for a freshman

So we're off to a good start
 
We dont have access to practice film

He threw a respectable 58.3 percent for a freshman

So we're off to a good start
Zorich 88 declared that he would be a top 10 QB next year.

While we all hope that’s the case, declaring TB a top 10 QB based upon his high school films is beyond absurd.

it’s great to be optimistic but you have to be pragmatic.
 
That’s your basis for declaring him elite ?

Watch his high school film ? ? ?

I have a better metric, How about you watch his game and practice films from this year !

Keep your day job !
#1 did i
So who do you consider elite?

How do college coaches rate HS players? They watch their HS film.

What am I missing here?
 
#1 did i
So who do you consider elite?

How do college coaches rate HS players? They watch their HS film.

What am I missing here?
What You’re missing is that there is no contemporaneous evidence that supports him being amongst the top 10 QB’s next year.

your assessment is based on 3 year old high school tapes
 
What You’re missing is that there is no contemporaneous evidence that supports him being amongst the top 10 QB’s next year.

your assessment is based on 3 year old high school tapes
Why do top college teams go after certain QBs? They believe those QBs will be a Top QB in college. Do we agree on that?

How do they make that assessment? High School film of course.

Film does not lie. The only questions left to answer is

#1 Can that QB play in front of 80,000 people plus the millions watching on TV. When the lights come on will he perform at a high level or be overwhelmed. TB in the limited snaps he took, NEVER looked rattled. The moment was never to big for him.

#2 Can he handle the speed of the game? Some QBs were the fastest player on their HS team. Now, 6’5 DE are faster than them. TB had no problem with the speed of the game.

The next question TB will have to answer is:

Defensive Coaches will now game plan to stop him specially. They will know everything about him. This will be answered after week 1 vs OSU.
 
The word ELITE is defined as "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society."

So, in ND' case does Elite QB = NC?

NO ONE KNOWS.


But here's HISTORY'S CASE:

1913

7-0-0

Mythical NC winner if there’d been one.

Beat major powers Army, PSU and Texas on the road.

QB – Gus Dorais – All American (AA)/CFHOF

1919 and 1920

18-0-0

Unclaimed mythical NC winners both years

Leading Passer and Rusher – George Gipp – AA/CFHOF. Gipp WAS ND’s offense.

1924

10-0-0

Mythical NC winner

QB – Harry Stuhldreher – Three-time AA/Four Horseman/CFHOF

1929 and 1930

19-0-0

Mythical NC winners both years

QB – Frank Carideo – Two-Time AA/CFHOF

1938

8-1-0

Unclaimed NC though picked #1 by the Dickinson system.

QB – Steve Sitko – 1939 All Polish-American team (Seriously)

1943

9-1-0

National Champion

QB – Angelo Bertelli – Two-Time AA/Heisman winner/CFHOF AND Johnny Lujack – Two-Time AA/Heisman Winner/CFHOF

1946 and 1947

17-0-1


National Champion both years

QB – Johnny Lujack – Two-Time AA/Heisman Winner/CFHOF

1949

10-0-0

National Champion

QB – Bob Williams – Two-Time AA/CFHOF

1953

9-0-1

Picked #1 by 10 different polling and rating systems.

QB – Ralph Guglielmi – AA/CFHOF

1964

9-1-0

Picked #1 by 3 different polling and rating systems.

QB – John Huarte – AA/Heisman winner/CFHOF

1966

9-0-1

National Champion

QB – Terry Hanratty – Two-Time AA/Baugh Award Winner

1967

8-2-0

Incorrectly picked #1 by the Dunkel System, but it is what it is.

QB – Terry Hanratty – Two-Time AA/Baugh Award Winner

1970

10-1-0

Picked #1 by three rating systems.

QB – Joe Theismann – AA/CHOF

1973

11-0-0

National Champion

QB – Tom Clements – AA

1977

11-1-0

National Champion

QB – Joe Montana – NO POSTSEASON AWARDS

1988

12-0-0

National Champion

QB – Tony Rice – AA/Unitas Award

1989

12-1-0

Picked #1 by four rating systems.

QB – Tony Rice – AA/Unitas Award

1993

11-1-0

Picked #1 by two rating systems.

QB – Kevin McDougal – No post-season awards

2012

12-1-0

Picked #1 by one source.

QB – Everett Golson – No postseason awards

BOTTOM LINE: If you accept that AA, Heisman, Baugh and Unitas winners satisfy the definition of ELITE – of the 22 ND – CLAIMED AND UCLAIMED – NC TEAMS I’ve listed, 16 had AA QB’s; 3, Heisman winners; one, a Baugh winner; and one, a Unitas winner.

And to top it off, NINE ARE IN THE COLLEGE FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME.

And while not all of these QB’s won their various awards in championship seasons – though most did – they still were the starting QB’s of those teams.

One team, 1943, had TWO starting QB’s who were both Two-Time AA’s and Heisman winners and who are both in the CFHOP – Bertelli who cut short his season to enter the service; and Lujack who replaced him but then entered the service himself in 1944 and 1945, only to be replaced by Frank Dancewicz who also then won AA honors, though not on a championship team.

Then there was Gipp who, while not a QB per se, was the leading passer on the 1919 and 1920 teams.

So, while CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION, it can SURE AS HELL HELP, and as the evidence points out, ND championship teams TEND TO BE LED BY ELITE QB’s.

The question then becomes how prevalent is that correlation throughout the rest of CFB, particularly in recent years. The answer to that will say even more about the issue than ND’s history alone which covers a number of extremely dissimilar eras.
That took some time to put that together. Enjoyed the read. Thank you.
 
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Watch his high school film.


The young man can make every throw.

He can throw off platform or sit in the pocket.

He can beat you with his legs.

Very poised

High football IQ

Watching those clips has to make you excited for next year. His motion looks a bit different though. Maybe they are tweaking a few things. Man, some of those throws are pro level. Can’t wait to watch this kid grow.
 
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Why do top college teams go after certain QBs? They believe those QBs will be a Top QB in college. Do we agree on that?

How do they make that assessment? High School film of course.

Film does not lie. The only questions left to answer is

#1 Can that QB play in front of 80,000 people plus the millions watching on TV. When the lights come on will he perform at a high level or be overwhelmed. TB in the limited snaps he took, NEVER looked rattled. The moment was never to big for him.

#2 Can he handle the speed of the game? Some QBs were the fastest player on their HS team. Now, 6’5 DE are faster than them. TB had no problem with the speed of the game.

The next question TB will have to answer is:

Defensive Coaches will now game plan to stop him specially. They will know everything about him. This will be answered after week 1 vs OSU.
Zorich88,

What you’re also missing is that the film clip your referencing only shows his good throws, it doesn’t show his mediocre and poor throws.

it’s a highlight film !

While we all hope that he excels in the coming year, there was nothing about his performance this year that merits your irrational exuberance !
 
Zorich88,

What you’re also missing is that the film clip your referencing only shows his good throws, it doesn’t show his mediocre and poor throws.

it’s a highlight film !

While we all hope that he excels in the coming year, there was nothing about his performance this year that merits your irrational exuberance !
He didn't have many bad throws his junior year. He was as good as you can possibly be in HS. He did play poor competition though

You dont need to see the poor throws though. Once coaches see you have the ability and talent, they think they can coach you up.

He has the talent, he needs to be coached and developed which is taking place for the next 9 months
 
Zorich88,

What you’re also missing is that the film clip your referencing only shows his good throws, it doesn’t show his mediocre and poor throws.

it’s a highlight film !

While we all hope that he excels in the coming year, there was nothing about his performance this year that merits your irrational exuberance !
#1 film shows ceiling/potential. Yes, we don’t see the interceptions on a highlight clip. However, what we do see is the level at which a player plays. When you watch a player make eye popping plays on film, that tells you what you are working with.
You see in TBs highlights that he can make all the throws.
You see his pocket presence
You see his ability to make plays when the pocket breaks down
His touch on the deep ball
His ability to look a safety off
Also makes plays with his legs

Also, he made plays this season for ND.

TB was brought in with high expectations.

Top 10 expectations

He has top 10 abilities
 
I don't know many highlight films of any kids that show their bad throws, runs for loss, dropped balls, etc...

It's always going to be their best. The fact that he had that many bests in a very long clip, should get us pumped up. We will know in about 6 months.
 
you need your QB, elite or not elite, to have an elite QB type of year!
 
#1 film shows ceiling/potential. Yes, we don’t see the interceptions on a highlight clip. However, what we do see is the level at which a player plays. When you watch a player make eye popping plays on film, that tells you what you are working with.
You see in TBs highlights that he can make all the throws.
You see his pocket presence
You see his ability to make plays when the pocket breaks down
His touch on the deep ball
His ability to look a safety off
Also makes plays with his legs

Also, he made plays this season for ND.

TB was brought in with high expectations.

Top 10 expectations

He has top 10 abilities
Then why didn’t they manifest themselves this year ?
 
Most freshman QBs dont start their freshman year. Thats normal

And he played pretty well when he got his oppurtunities
Pretty well ?

How does “pretty well” equate to one of the top ten QB’s in the country ?

He was 21 for 35 with 3 Int’s and based on those stats you’re projecting him as one of the top 10 QB’s in the nation ?

One can hope that TB develops into a terrific QB, but making the claim that he’s one of the 10 best in the nation is more than a stretch
 
Pretty well ?

How does “pretty well” equate to one of the top ten QB’s in the country ?

He was 21 for 35 with 3 Int’s and based on those stats you’re projecting him as one of the top 10 QB’s in the nation ?

One can hope that TB develops into a terrific QB, but making the claim that he’s one of the 10 best in the nation is more than a stretch
Never said he was or would be a top 10 qb this year. You have to start reading who you are replying to and just not go off the handle
 
Never said he was or would be a top 10 qb this year. You have to start reading who you are replying to and just not go off the handle
Except that you jumped in and defended the claim
 
Except that you jumped in and defended the claim
I didnt defend the claim.

I just said what is true, Buchner is very talented and played pretty well for a freshman. Which is all true

Most freshman qbs dont do much their first year. He has a bright future
 
I didnt defend the claim.

I just said what is true, Buchner is very talented and played pretty well for a freshman. Which is all true

Most freshman qbs dont do much their first year. He has a bright future
Let’s hope.

He’ll need a good OLine and a running game in order to be successful
 
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