No. I don't have the time... I don't mean to attack just that you're arguments are silly. Like when you said Weis left the program in better shape than Kelly. Coan will never start, when it was obvious why he was brought in. Book is elite. Those are silly statements, that's all.
Do you need an elite QB to win a championship
- Thread starter Zorich 88
- Start date
Coan should never have started. Weis left the program in better shape than Kelly, and Book was an elite college QB.
Curious, are you Golson's pad account? Not like his va - jj pad, which you clearly are. I mean his tablet account.
You can never make an argument, just attacks on other posters. NINi - rish.
I just think your opinions are wrong as I said, especially you're first two sentences in this post. So I'll just leave it at that, rather than you feel attacked.
You're an anonymous poster on an internet message board who offers only opinion without facts. NINi - rish.
If, indeed, Freeman "underperforms," posts such as yours will be viewed as having provided the analytical roadmap as to WHY.
There are, of course, no guarantees. THERE NEVER ARE. But from a PROBABILITY VIEWPOINT, yours is an eminently PLAUSIBLE scenario, no question.
But, again, only time will tell.
As I see it, hiring the guy was -- AT THE VERY LEAST -- like a 3-POINT SHOT from well beyond the line. In other words, making for a decidedly slim chance of ND's MATCHING what it did during Kelly's last five years, let alone exceeding it.
Last edited:
One ND player on the team with EG, called EG the greatest football player, pro or college, that he had ever seen!
He really said that! Brandon N….
It is still googleable
"He called sophomore Everett Golson “the most talented human being I've seen on a football field ever.”
bad assessment? bad coaching? something went wrong!
He really said that! Brandon N….
It is still googleable
"He called sophomore Everett Golson “the most talented human being I've seen on a football field ever.”
bad assessment? bad coaching? something went wrong!
Last edited:
You were the one who said Weis left the program in better position than Kelly?
Makes sense now
What is elite? Is it W/L? That would make Book elite. Is it Natty? That would take out all but QB’s in the last 10 years and no one would define Bennet as elite. Is it ratings out of HS? Is it draft pic?
If you define it as a 5 star, offered by the perineal top 5, who consistently performs week in and week out and gets drafted in the first round that would be elite to me. A Natty takes more than just a QB. Maybe a 6.0 rated QB or a 5 star. Hard to say those would not make you an elite QB.
If you define it as a 5 star, offered by the perineal top 5, who consistently performs week in and week out and gets drafted in the first round that would be elite to me. A Natty takes more than just a QB. Maybe a 6.0 rated QB or a 5 star. Hard to say those would not make you an elite QB.
A Guy that has the talent to make the other players on the field levels better than they would otherwise be, not who is over-achieving because he is surrounded by better talent. He has the uber physical talents and the personality such that players acknowledge him as the leader. It it in fact obvious to all.
This thread reminds me of a day and a conversation I was involved in so many years ago. We were sitting in Lou Holtz's office at ND waiting for him with a few older guys. They were talking about how even though Joe Montana was considered the greatest ND QB bc of his success in the NFL, that Joe Theisman was actually a better college QB. Joe M had the super bowl wins and a NC at ND, and was getting a lot of media attention at the time. Joe T had no NC at ND.
I would say both were elite college QB's of their day.
Then Joe T showed up and the topic was changed. Lou didn't arrive until later so he didn't chime in, but it would have been interesting to hear his take.
Of course there was no internet message board then. These were men, ND fans talking ND football. Clearly different from the ladies on this board clucking away.
Based on all this, i don't really know when ND had an elite QB. Maybe the last was both Joe's. I don't feel Rice was elite, even with the Natty. Clausen, Kizer, Book and Quinn
Was not saying Rice had those, more stating it would be nice if Book did.
As far as 1988, that team was loaded and embarrassingly rich with talent.
Waters, Anthony Johns, Rodney Culver, Green, Brooks and Braxton Banks were all on that team just at RB. It was amazing what we had at RB. Your talking about multiple top pro players, let alone college.
Ismail was on that team, arguable one of the greatest CFB players ever and got robbed of a Heisman. There is no way Book had more talent on the teams he had.
The OL was a cascade of stars. Heck, Grunhardt, Brown, Heldt. Toss in Derek Brown at TE, Zorich at NG, Pritchet, Stams, Stonebreaker....
That was one of the most loaded teams ever.
Was not saying Rice had those, more stating it would be nice if Book did.
As far as 1988, that team was loaded and embarrassingly rich with talent.
Waters, Anthony Johns, Rodney Culver, Green, Brooks and Braxton Banks were all on that team just at RB. It was amazing what we had at RB. Your talking about multiple top pro players, let alone college.
Ismail was on that team, arguable one of the greatest CFB players ever and got robbed of a Heisman. There is no way Book had more talent on the teams he had.
The OL was a cascade of stars. Heck, Grunhardt, Brown, Heldt. Toss in Derek Brown at TE, Zorich at NG, Pritchet, Stams, Stonebreaker....
That was one of the most loaded teams ever.
I am not a Kelly lover . I just think he could see the days of the weaker schedules coming to and end . This year schedule is no joke .
I think Holtz was right that Kelly never saw coaching at ND as the QUASI-MYSTICAL EXPERIENCE Lou himself regarded it as.
I've always SPECULATED that Kelly knew what he was getting into at ND and figured that the chance of winning the Kentucky Derby of CFB -- THE NC -- was worth the challenge -- EVEN IF IT MEANT HAVING TO CARRY MORE WEIGHT -- ND ACADEMICS -- THAN THE OTHER HORSES.
And I think Kelly gave his ALL in trying to achieve HIS AND ND's JOINT GOAL. Which is to say that he was doing this AT LEAST as much for Kelly as for ND. Actually, LET'S BE HONEST. It was 95% for Brian Kelly. WHICH IS FINE WITH ME. We live in a society that -- rightly or wrongly -- promotes ECONOMIC SELF-INTEREST as the GOVERNING PRINCIPLE.
Brian Kelly IS and HAS BEEN an opportunist. Again, NOT A BAD WORD from where I come from. And as an opportunist, when LSU CAME KNOCKING, he ANSWERED THE CALL. More money, no recruiting restrictions and -- as I suspect he viewed it -- a BETTER CHANCE TO WIN IT ALL. After 12 years of trying at ND, he felt it was time for a NEAUX MOUSE TRAP.
I don't begrudge him one damn thing.
Kelly is the proof point for the idea that if you can fake sincerity you can fake anything. He excused himself from a recruits dinner table to take a phone call to finalize his arrangement then sat back down and finished eating. That’s a level most would not descend to or be proud of. C’est la vie. It’s big boy football and ND knew who Kelly was. He was interviewing for NFL jobs in 2012 BCS bowl lead up while Saban was gameplanning for his destruction.
The word ELITE is defined as "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society."
So, in ND' case does Elite QB = NC?
NO ONE KNOWS.
But here's HISTORY'S CASE:
1913
7-0-0
Mythical NC winner if there’d been one.
Beat major powers Army, PSU and Texas on the road.
QB – Gus Dorais – All American (AA)/CFHOF
1919 and 1920
18-0-0
Unclaimed mythical NC winners both years
Leading Passer and Rusher – George Gipp – AA/CFHOF. Gipp WAS ND’s offense.
1924
10-0-0
Mythical NC winner
QB – Harry Stuhldreher – Three-time AA/Four Horseman/CFHOF
1929 and 1930
19-0-0
Mythical NC winners both years
QB – Frank Carideo – Two-Time AA/CFHOF
1938
8-1-0
Unclaimed NC though picked #1 by the Dickinson system.
QB – Steve Sitko – 1939 All Polish-American team (Seriously)
1943
9-1-0
National Champion
QB – Angelo Bertelli – Two-Time AA/Heisman winner/CFHOF AND Johnny Lujack – Two-Time AA/Heisman Winner/CFHOF
1946 and 1947
17-0-1
National Champion both years
QB – Johnny Lujack – Two-Time AA/Heisman Winner/CFHOF
1949
10-0-0
National Champion
QB – Bob Williams – Two-Time AA/CFHOF
1953
9-0-1
Picked #1 by 10 different polling and rating systems.
QB – Ralph Guglielmi – AA/CFHOF
1964
9-1-0
Picked #1 by 3 different polling and rating systems.
QB – John Huarte – AA/Heisman winner/CFHOF
1966
9-0-1
National Champion
QB – Terry Hanratty – Two-Time AA/Baugh Award Winner
1967
8-2-0
Incorrectly picked #1 by the Dunkel System, but it is what it is.
QB – Terry Hanratty – Two-Time AA/Baugh Award Winner
1970
10-1-0
Picked #1 by three rating systems.
QB – Joe Theismann – AA/CHOF
1973
11-0-0
National Champion
QB – Tom Clements – AA
1977
11-1-0
National Champion
QB – Joe Montana – NO POSTSEASON AWARDS
1988
12-0-0
National Champion
QB – Tony Rice – AA/Unitas Award
1989
12-1-0
Picked #1 by four rating systems.
QB – Tony Rice – AA/Unitas Award
1993
11-1-0
Picked #1 by two rating systems.
QB – Kevin McDougal – No post-season awards
2012
12-1-0
Picked #1 by one source.
QB – Everett Golson – No postseason awards
BOTTOM LINE: If you accept that AA, Heisman, Baugh and Unitas winners satisfy the definition of ELITE – of the 22 ND – CLAIMED AND UCLAIMED – NC TEAMS I’ve listed, 16 had AA QB’s; 3, Heisman winners; one, a Baugh winner; and one, a Unitas winner.
And to top it off, NINE ARE IN THE COLLEGE FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME.
And while not all of these QB’s won their various awards in championship seasons – though most did – they still were the starting QB’s of those teams.
One team, 1943, had TWO starting QB’s who were both Two-Time AA’s and Heisman winners and who are both in the CFHOP – Bertelli who cut short his season to enter the service; and Lujack who replaced him but then entered the service himself in 1944 and 1945, only to be replaced by Frank Dancewicz who also then won AA honors, though not on a championship team.
Then there was Gipp who, while not a QB per se, was the leading passer on the 1919 and 1920 teams.
So, while CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION, it can SURE AS HELL HELP, and as the evidence points out, ND championship teams TEND TO BE LED BY ELITE QB’s.
The question then becomes how prevalent is that correlation throughout the rest of CFB, particularly in recent years. The answer to that will say even more about the issue than ND’s history alone which covers a number of extremely dissimilar eras.
Last edited:
Hard ball.
It's a business, and Kelly has always behaved more like a CEO than most would have wanted him to. Most prefer to see coaches principally as educators and builders of character. But a lot of that is projection. Understandable to be sure, and something we've all been prone to.
But then MUCH OF LIFE runs on AMBITION. Particularly in today's world where money, power, place, status and winning TRUMP MOST OTHER THINGS.
Kelly may have disillusioned people, but I don't see him as BLATANTLY OR WILLFULLY having hurt anyone. Some, I think, are simply miffed at him for not buying into the ND mystique. But to me, it was always clear that he wasn't that sort of person. What I saw were opportunist and pragmatist.
I'm quite interested to see how he does at LSU. He handled the ND challenge pretty well. AND IT GOT HIM THE LSU JOB. Let's see what he can do in the SEC. Whole new set of obstacles.
We'll see.
Last edited:
If you accept the definition of ELITE as those who received postseason honors, I can only speak to last year’s winners.
Bryce Young, certainly. Pickett. Stroud. There were others. 247 Sports published a list of 25. It's on Google. Not ALL were elite but some certainly were.
But whether you look at a small group or a larger one, there’s generally an informed consensus among writers, broadcasters and other close followers of the sport as to who the VERY BEST ARE.
But just as ND has fared better in championship runs with elite QB’s, not all elite ND QB’s played on championship teams.
Here’s the list of ND AA and/or CHFHOF QB’s who DIDN’T start on championship teams:
1917 – Jim Phelan
1922 – Frank Thomas
1945 – Frank Dancewicz
1956 – Paul Hornung
1962 – Daryle Lamonica
1992 – Rick Mirer
2005 – Brady Quinn
2006 – Brady Quinn
2009 – Jimmy Clausen
No ND championship in 33 years. 3 ND AA QB’s in 27 years. That, too, is an interesting correlation.
If and when I have time, I will correlate the last 20 NC winners with the number of ELITE QB’s who played for them, using the same criteria to define ELITE.
My guess is that the correlation will be AS STRONG FOR THAT GROUP as it has been for ND historically.
QB’s aren’t everything, but the better teams tend to have better ones. And more so, it seems, all the time.
Last edited:
Bryce Young, CJ Stroud and Caleb Williams are probably the 3 best qbs coming back next year. I may be forgetting someone but those 3 jump out to me
No...
This whole thing is a huge quagmire.
HH is ok...but big picture look at our rushing stats in the biggest of games.
Weeks ago I posted our rushing yardage in the biggest games under Brian Kelly.
It's utterly embarrassing...even with HH coaching...our piss poor running game in those contests. He might coach up an individual but collectively we did poor. We steamrolled the weak and got stonewalled by the strong.
The days are gone of saying I'm running it right there...try and stop us.
We'll see going forward because BK was fools gold.
Elite QB's never hurt but more...no no...most importantly is they have to make plays and we need perimter players to make big plays.
There's a difference there.
Tim Tebow I'd never call an elite QB but he was a huge playmaker and just an incredibly tough/good football player. He also benefited from having one of the best college coaches and coaching can in fact make a difference.
We've had absolutely none of the above in a very long time. Very long time.
Book was a safe choice at QB. When your stable is Wimbush...then Jerkovic which didn't get a fair shot. ..not a great selection of horses there.
But that's on BK. He needed to stay nowhere near the QB position but just couldn't help himself
What qualified him to make that assessment and what was his frame of reference in terms of what other QB’s he evaluated
What’s puzzling is that you had guys playing next to each other that started in the NFL
We always seemed to struggle on short yardage plays
Tim Tebow was one of the greatest cfb players of all time. So yeah, he was elite
The one consistent thread running through each list of "elite" QB's talked about in this thread is they each had "elite" coaching.
Back in the day I was able to sit with some of those coaches and listen. And I remember someone saying that organizations created superstar players, not the other way around. And I think that's still true. A guy can come in with all the stars in the world and the greatest of potential, but without an elite coaching staff creating an elite team around him and coaching him up, he will not reach his own potential.
ND doesn't need a Trevor Lawrence type QB, they need an excellent college QB and an elite coaching staff. Does ND have that now? That's what we are going to find out.
Back in the day I was able to sit with some of those coaches and listen. And I remember someone saying that organizations created superstar players, not the other way around. And I think that's still true. A guy can come in with all the stars in the world and the greatest of potential, but without an elite coaching staff creating an elite team around him and coaching him up, he will not reach his own potential.
ND doesn't need a Trevor Lawrence type QB, they need an excellent college QB and an elite coaching staff. Does ND have that now? That's what we are going to find out.
L
you think Dean smith made Michael Jordan? Or was it the other way around? Remember the old joke “who is the only person to hold MJ under 20 pts a game?” A: Dean Smith
It’s not surprising that the coaches overvalued their role in the success and undervalued the role of the players innate talent and abilities. Colleges football is less about X’s and O’s and more about Jimmy’s and Joe’s.
you think Dean smith made Michael Jordan? Or was it the other way around? Remember the old joke “who is the only person to hold MJ under 20 pts a game?” A: Dean Smith
Cam Newton played for Urban Meyer and Gene Chizik. Both won NC's.
Joe B played for Ed Orgeron where he won the Heisman and Ed won a NC.
Michael played for Phil Jackson in the NBA. In college, he played for Dean Smith. Called a "coaching legend" by the Basketball Hall of Fame. 2 NC's.
Thanks for proving my point.,
edit: I'm just a ND football fan, that's all I've ever claimed to be. But the guys on this board who sell themselves as "experts," are complete morons.
Joe B played for Ed Orgeron where he won the Heisman and Ed won a NC.
Michael played for Phil Jackson in the NBA. In college, he played for Dean Smith. Called a "coaching legend" by the Basketball Hall of Fame. 2 NC's.
Thanks for proving my point.,
edit: I'm just a ND football fan, that's all I've ever claimed to be. But the guys on this board who sell themselves as "experts," are complete morons.
Last edited:
Gene Chizik is an awful head coach and was fired after Cam left. He is not a head coach anymore. Ed is an average head coach and was fired twice and does not have a head coach job
Neither are close to elite head coaches
You're an anonymous internet message board poster. Both coaches you are trashing have National Championships and Heisman winners in their resume.
I'll be happy with this level of average at ND. It his 100x better than what ND has had for the last 20-25 years.
If we had Cam Newton between 2017 and 2021 we might have one right now. That's why getting that elite qb is so important
I don't either . It's not his fault if the program goes downhill . I blame the University for the to quick hire of M F .
That's bullshit.
If tb had had a senior season it would have been possible but the kid didn't play in over a year any meaningful football
You're putting the cart before the horse, dummy. Elite players play for elite coaching staffs. Once ND has an elite coaching staff, they will get the QB to develop. Do they have an elite coaching staff now? We have no reason to believe they do, but we can all hope MF develops into one. Hope is all any of us can do right now.
Without Michael Jordan, Dean Smith is closer to Rollie Massimino than he is to Mike Krysewski (sp?). James Worthy didn’t hurt either. Dean Smith is legendary … he got the best players and he won.
calling him “dummy” doesn’t make you right and him wrong. Embrace the discussion and eliminate the ad homonym. It’s all good we are all Irish fans and it’s the off-season. Breathe.
Gene chizik and Ed Orgeron are not elite coaches you dope. Our coaching staff was better than Auburns and our coaching staff right now looks as good as it has in a long long time. Nice try dumb shit
IF, IF IF !
The fact is that if TB was elite as he claimed he would have beaten Coan out
