I believe that the biggest gap was Kelly, his game plans, failure to adjust and negotiating with the Eagles
Do you need an elite QB to win a championship
- Thread starter Zorich 88
- Start date
You would have to take the last 10 years of top players out of ND to match the teams we played, both won the natty those years.
Our last title. Compare that talent. That’s what you need. We have not had that since 1993.
Was rice better than book? Stats would say no.
Our last title. Compare that talent. That’s what you need. We have not had that since 1993.
Was rice better than book? Stats would say no.
I’m sorry I just don’t buy it. More talent? Yes, but ND is in the same neighborhood.
I actually think ND was talented enough to beat Georgia in 2019, Clemson in the ACC Champ and Bama in 2020.
2019 Total Yards
UGA 339
ND 321
ND lost the turnover battle 2-1. A dropped pass that turned into a ridiculous INT. UGA also turned it over and set up an ND score.
2020 Total Yards
Clemson 541
ND 263
ND moved the ball a bit in this game. Clemson scored points off of some big plays but not necessarily because they had better athletes. Obviously having Lawrence and Etienne helps but ND made some mistakes.
2020 Total Yards
Bama 437
ND 375
ND had a motion/illegal shift penalty that took a TD off the board. ND also got out-schemed big time. Lots of easy yards given up that didn’t have much to do with athleticism. Bama RB should have been tackled by McCloud but hurdled him (nice play, but the tackle should have been made), which turned an 8 yard run into about 60. Lots of other easy yards just by ND not being aligned properly. Don’t know what the heck ND was doing.
I will say QB play has been a difference maker. The 2019 Georgia game…the UGA QB made some great passes against pretty good coverage and that was a difference maker. The Bama QB was very accurate on some of his short passes as well. 1st rounders.
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Didn’t say we’re where not close. We have the line that is top every year. We have the TE that is top every year. We have lately had excellent DL. We did not have a top 5 WR or RB. We are missing those game breakers. You can’t go down the field 3 yards at a time. Takes too much out of you.
Just a few players away and Marcus seems on the right track like we had in 88-93
To get there we are close. I think Buch could be the QB. Just a insane WR and RB short. We can get those.
Just a few players away and Marcus seems on the right track like we had in 88-93
To get there we are close. I think Buch could be the QB. Just a insane WR and RB short. We can get those.
Fair enough. Maybe I misunderstood but you said top players from the last 10 years. ND can always use better players. I just think other schools maybe have better coaching in addition to a little more talent.
It’s frustrating knowing seeing the breakdowns happen that aren’t due to lack of athleticism.
I think reluctantly that BK was a very good coach. You just look at the talent gap. When teams are seeing 4-7 first rounders and we one or none there is an issue.
Freeman’s only hope is to upgrade talent because he will not be the coach BK was at this point I don’t believe.
But in the 21 championship, we where closer than anyone else was so it’s getting closer. Marcus seems to know that talent can erase some coaching issues.
Freeman’s only hope is to upgrade talent because he will not be the coach BK was at this point I don’t believe.
But in the 21 championship, we where closer than anyone else was so it’s getting closer. Marcus seems to know that talent can erase some coaching issues.
Yes Rice was better than Book, way better. He could beat you with his arm or his feet and the bigger the moment the better he got. He won the Unitas award and finished 4th in the heisman. It’s not even close.
I’m not anti Book … he was very good and fun to watch.
The stats would say something very different. I loved Rice but he had talent everywhere. Hard to compare. Maybe Rice with the Title but there was no playoff back then. So tough to compare
Rice stats in 88. Book did that in 4 games.
70 Cmp, 138 Att, 1176 Yds, 8 TD
I said elite Qbs dont usually start as freshman. And that is true.
Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Vince Young, Joe Burrow, Justin Fields are some others who also didnt start as freshman
I’m not sure what to make of Kelly. I think he’s a good coach but he just got beat by better ones.
I’m hopeful Freeman can upgrade the talent and continue to learn and grow as a coach. I’m definitely skeptical but I don’t have much of a choice.
And I agree its hard to match the 1st rounders. I wonder if those programs also benefit from a bias in the NFL? Like NFL teams consciously or subconsciously favor players from Alabama.
We will agree to disagree on this one. Rice was running the option behind a young offensive line and converted RBs playing WR (plus a Yale transfer) … he was incredible vs #1 Miami, #2 USC in Colloseum and #3 WVa in the desert. He was a winner in every sense. With all respect to Book, we scored 3 points, 3. That’s unheard of. In the biggest games with Book under center the offense was largely MIA.
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Rice also played against much tougher schedules. Can't blame Book for that, but he never played a schedule that included 6 top 25 teams, with 4 of those in the top 10. That was the 88 schedule.
I think Tony was amazing. Like I said tough to compare. I don’t know if Miami was any better then Alabama was. I’m really not so much talking about QB. I think Book or Rice would have been fine this year if we had waters and Bettis at TB and Tate and Floyd ar WR or Fuller and Claypool.
Our best WR was a frosh. Our second best was a 1 year starter. We had an awesome TB with our worst line in years. I’m excited about the 21 class and 22. 23 looks Killer. This thing could be building.
Our best WR was a frosh. Our second best was a 1 year starter. We had an awesome TB with our worst line in years. I’m excited about the 21 class and 22. 23 looks Killer. This thing could be building.
Rice didn’t have Bettis at TB, he had Mark Green, Braxton Banks and Tony Brooks. He didn’t have Tate or Floyd at WR, he had Alaniz, Eilers, and two underclssman RBs converted to WRs in Ismail and Watters. The OL had 3 sophomores and a converted TE. Book had more talent and experience around him on the field. Again I’m not slamming Boom he won a lot of games but Rice went 23-1 against the toughest schedules ND has ever seen - Book racked up wins vs less talented teams and was non competitive vs top 10 teams.
Book and Bennett have similar stats. If you wanna talk arm strength and who can throw the best deep ball, we can debate that. However, No one would consider Bennett elite.
Also, all this talk about sitting in the pocket and taking a hit, is old school outdated football. Not one coach in today's football wants there QB to take all out in your face hits so you can complete a 10-20 yard pass. QBs today, have to be able to pass off platform. They have to be able to extend the pocket and keep the play alive. The defensive athletes are way to athletic to just sit in the pocket. You have 265 pound DEs clocking 4.5 40 times. No QB is asked to take that hit. I am primarily talking college football. Now, you always have the exception. However, for the most part, the days of sit in the pocket and take big hits is gone.
If we have the best
oline
dline
run game
that would also help. No?
Its a team sport. Having the best QB is not all that it takes. Tua was the so called best the year he won the Heisman. The guy is about to get cut in Miami. At least some want him out.
TEAM!!!!!
That’s usually because someone better was starting their freshman year and also because they hadn’t developed into elite QB’s in their freshman year.
You’re forgetting an important factor, your “best” QB has to be able to meet the academic requirements and sustain eligibility by attending legitimate classes.
Exactly. Buchner hasn't developed into an elite qb yet. Doesn't mean he can't become one
Most qbs are more than intelligent enough. Qb, te, ol, academics are really not a problem for those positions mostly
Traded or benched most likely. I am just reading reports. I watched zero Miami games. Just watched the highlights.
If ND had an "elite" QB this year, who wins 11 games and the NC, or even competes, he's probably gone after one year to the league. (Buchner)
ND needs an "elite" COLLEGE qb. Like BQ, EG, or even Book. The 88 team had no problem running the ball, and could grind the clock with 7 minute drives that keep the ball out of the hands of elite quick scoring offensive teams (fsu etc) That is how you beat them. Kelly teams have rarely been able to routinely pick up 2 yards for the first down. There was a time with HH coaching the OL they could, but they lost the entire RB room for misconduct or some such. Weis was never able to do it either. It's been years since ND could do that.
Pyne could become an "elite" college QB and with a running game, and a great D, could win the NC this year and would return to play out his eligibility, even perhaps a 5th year. I think that's how ND competes with the elite teams.
ND needs an "elite" COLLEGE qb. Like BQ, EG, or even Book. The 88 team had no problem running the ball, and could grind the clock with 7 minute drives that keep the ball out of the hands of elite quick scoring offensive teams (fsu etc) That is how you beat them. Kelly teams have rarely been able to routinely pick up 2 yards for the first down. There was a time with HH coaching the OL they could, but they lost the entire RB room for misconduct or some such. Weis was never able to do it either. It's been years since ND could do that.
Pyne could become an "elite" college QB and with a running game, and a great D, could win the NC this year and would return to play out his eligibility, even perhaps a 5th year. I think that's how ND competes with the elite teams.
One undefeated season and 2 CFP berths make him a contender for "elite" college QB.
I remember you thought Rattler was elite. And Tua. How many undefeated seasons did they have?
Trevor Lawrence had exactly ONE undefeated season. Equal to Book with arguable much better team and coaching around him. Is he elite?
Yes T Lawrence was an elite college QB and Ian Book was not. None of this is even debatable. Head to head, Book was outscored by Clemson 64-13 … he scored 3 points in the cotton bowl. Lawrence was even better against Alabama. When the lights got brighter Lawrence got better and Book disappeared.
Are you seriously comparing Trevor Lawrence and Tua with Ian Book
You have to be joking
Of course Trevor was an elite college QB. One undefeated season with a better surrounding cast and coaching. Book had the same. Ultimately it is about results, and Book put up the numbers also. Was he "as" elite? Of course not. Trevor was a once in a generation talent. Book was close to getting ND to the NC win. VERY close.
Both playoff games were over at halftime because it was clear our offense could not score. Same with the ACCCG. None of the games were close. We were exposed as not having an offense that could compete at this level. The disparity at QB was huge and obvious, more than any other position. Several
of Books teammates now play on Sundays.
2 CFP appearances and 1 undefeated regular season in his 4 years. You are the one that thought Rattler was elite. Is JT Daniels an elite college QB?
Can you or anyone name one college QB with an undefeated season and 2 CFP appearances that is NOT considered an elite college QB?
I didn't think so.
I can name college qbs who actually won NCs who weren't elite.
Greg McElroy, Jake Coker and Stetson Bennett to name 3.
All won NCs but none are elite
Cardale Jones is another who won a NC but not elite
You have a strange definition of elite … I think we aren’t even discussing the same topic. Everett Golson was elite in your world too I guess.
I think if Everett had not had the problems not related to football, ie his suspension and transferring his final year, he could have been an elite COLLEGE qb at ND. With a better DC (BVG) and some continuity, he could have been. Again, elite at the college level.
Again, Trevor was a once in a generation talent, yet had only the same number of CFP appearances as Book. If Trevor is a once in a generation talent, and a number one overall pick, what does that say about Book with the same number of appearances in CFP?
Book was certainly a very successful college QB.
No other QB made 2 CFP appearances in his career and is not considered elite at the college level. To be clear, in 3 years as a starter, he led his team to 2 CFP appearances. I'm looking for team success to define elite. What is your definition of elite?
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Seriously, you make some of the most idiotic arguments. I remember you saying Coan would never start at ND.😂 Many others when you post.
Coan should never have started at ND. I didn't know at the time Coach Kelly was leaving after this year. Rather than attack other posters, are you able to make an argument? All I've ever seen from you are attacks on other posters. Like a worm.
No. He wasn't. But he went undefeated so in your view he would be elite then right?
