After that diatribe I conclude BK is a complete and total D-Bag. He's arrogant as hell and people didn't like him because A. Hes a douche. B- hes an arrogant prick. C- He threw his players under the bus numerous times. D- Never took responsibility for his losses, and F - NEVER won a Championship(all blow outs) and very very few big games in 12 years. I do agree with you that MF better find an OC who knows what hes doing and jacks replacement needs to pay the money to get him, whoever that is.
Didn’t realize Freeman was 14-7 overall as a head coach
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Thanks for the CLARIFICATION. I now understand your points.
In my analysis of ND's better coaches, I only look at OBJECTIVE RESULTS.
I worked in the MONEY business for companies that were completely MONEY-RESULTS oriented, so I tend to favor numbers based outcomes. I view Kelly -- despite his never having won the JACKPOT -- as still having won SUFFICIENTLY at ND. 74% is a more than RESPECTABLE number.
So, for Kelly to have finally "given up" made PERFECT SENSE TO ME. HIs goal wasn't to FUSE HIMSELF, body and soul, with ND and see his LEGACY as an ND ICON. No, his goal was to win an NC. And once he realized it wouldn't happen at ND and he got an offer from a place where it MIGHT happen -- HE JUMPED AT IT.
And to me, THAT'S THE GUY I WANT and will do whatever I can -- including break a few moralistically ARCHAIC RULES -- to keep.
In other words, I'll take the MERCENARY PROFESSIONAL over the EMOTION-DRIVEN LOYALIST every time. My concern with Freeman is that he isn't MERCENARY ENOUGH, and I feel THAT LACK the moment he opens his mouth at a PRESS CONFERENCE. I don't hear TOUGHNESS, and I don't hear COMMAND.
I hear RATIONALIZATIONS and GROPING.
If Freeman somehow FIGURES IT ALL OUT and gets this team together, ALL WELL AND GOOD. And I will be quick to CITE HIS ACCOMPLISHMENT. Because that will mean, AGAINST MY OWN BEST JUDGEMENT, that he's better than I gave him credit for.
But I'll be EXTREMELY SURPRISED if that's the case.
We shall see.
Thats true....but Charlie, Davie and Willingham didn't get 12 years. I think BK is the exception....especially since Swarbrick is on his way out. ND cannot afford to be pedestrian any longer...especially with the portal and NIL driving the bus.
I'm not sure Kelly can win an NC either. That's a brutal conference he's joined.
But I don't consider his NOT winning an NC at ND a BLEMISH. Others may disagree, but it's my FIRM CONVICTION that Kelly didn't have the same free RECRUITING HAND as any of those ND coaches who did win NC's. When ND won championships under Leahy, Ara, Devine and Holtz, it had the country's BEST TALENT. Kelly did not.
For example . . .
Look at how BADLY OUTMANNED ND was against Bama in 2012. In retrospect, is there EVEN ONE PERSON ALIVE who by any OBJECTIVE ANALYSIS would argue that Bama wasn't much more talented or that, somehow, Kelly lost that game by poor coaching?
No. It was clear from the first couple of plays from scrimmage that Alabama was almost AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE more talented than ND. If anything, ND over the years became MORE COMPETITIVE under Kelly. Yet, it still couldn't attract enough MARQUEE TALENT because of its ACADEMIC REQUIREMENTS.
AND IT STILL CAN'T.
Besides, Kelly is about KELLY and not ND. As I said in my previous post, he's a MERCENARY. In many ways, he was the IDEAL coach to resurrect ND's program but BY NO MEANS the IDEAL ND MAN -- which to me was of ZERO consequence.
A lot of pro-Freeman people keep citing his CHARACTER and various positive PERSONAL TRAITS. To me, that's secondary. What's primary is TOUGHNESS, FOOTBALL IQ and EXPERIENCE. And by my count, he doesn't score highly on ANY of those.
Will he turn the corner? Who knows. But no first-time coach at ND EVER has. I think he's in a VERY TOUGH SPOT.
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NAILED IT.
That's PRECISELY the appropriate analogy.
DESPITE HIS HAVING ALREADY WON AN NC, ND folk wanted to RIDE DEVINE OUT OF TOWN ON A RAIL after the 79 season when for the first time in SIXTEEN YEARS, ND lost FOUR games.
Hell, that's been done many times at ND SINCE.
Yes, absolutely. Kelly was in many ways DAN DEVINE LA DEUXIEME.
Kelly's offense and lack of defense will prevent him from winning an NC.
It was that way at UC, it was that way at ND, it is that way at LSU.
Unlike like Holtz who took over the position from the coordinator to correct what needed to be corrected Kelly to me doesn't know how to adjust and take control of a defense. Hes great on offense but not well on defense which is odd to me because he played db in college I believe.
Than there's the type of offense he ran at ND while wasn't friendly to the defensive side if the ball due to the exact reason you brought up in regards to recruiting.
IMO if ND is going to win an NC you would need to recruit the best players possible, an offense capable of eating the clock while moving the ball, and a stout defense that's not worn out from fast paced offense.
Almost the way the service academies have to deal with their limitation thou not particularly that type of offense
You shouldn’t call anyone challenged when you “just realized” that MF was 14-7. Way to stay up to speed.
No argument.
But ND is NEVER going to get the LION'S SHARE of the BEST PLAYERS. That ship has SAILED.
The two periods within my lifetime when ND DID GET THE BEST PLAYERS were a) the POST WWII years when Leahy -- himself a VET -- brought in all of those 25 to 27 year old ex-GI's, some of whom had seen JUNGLE COMBAT, and b) the complete RUN OF THE TABLE opportunity that HOLTZ AND VINNY CERRATO enjoyed from 87 to 90.
Unless something UBER-FUNDAMENTAL changes at ND, YOU WILL NEVER SEE THOSE KINDS OF CLASSES AGAIN. And we're not even talking PORTAL or NIL, neither of which ND, for reasons similar to its self-imposed recruiting limitations, well EVER pursue as aggressively as its most aggressive competitors.
But here's my question.
Would you rather still have Kelly after his last six years of 54-9 or Marcus Freeman coaching the team on Saturday vs. USC?
Me, I'd go with KELLY. And without ONE SECOND'S HESITATION.
Actually, the game I'd really like to see is USC vs. LSU. ALL O, ZERO D. Caleb vs. Jayden. I might even pay CASH MONEY to see that one.
I loathe USC (Pete Carroll compounded that with all due respect) I don't loath Kelly and if we were just talking in general terms Kelly of course
Now ND does not need to get all the top prospects with the right program that works within their limitations.
At ND its more X's and O's than Jimmy and Joe's
Okay, then that's your view.
Just let me know if and when "the right program that works within [ND's] limitations" arrives. I've waited patiently for 35 YEARS.
It's always COMING but never ARRIVES.
As for Kelly, I don't see ND surpassing his 54-9 ANY TIME SOON.
Those limitations you refer to are STIFLING.
To MY EYE, what you see is what you GET.
Not true.
It's already been at ND Lou Holtz knew how to work within the limitations 93' for example. ND can sale its self though NIL deteriorate the game even more make it the ME show when its about the team
Lou Holtz had MUCH FEWER LIMITATIONS.
Otherwise, he would NOT have been able to produce four #1 recruiting classes in a row. Tony Rice and Chris Zorich -- as well as a few others -- would NOT have been admitted.
As for the future, has ND rebuilt itself in a year's time the way USC did last year in the portal? And Marshall as well? And LOUISVILLE, this year? Not to mention hosts of other teams with multiple key additions at key positions?
It can't. It only takes PG's.
And that's because you still have ACADEMICS at ND, whereas you don't have them to the same extent at many other places, and in some, athletes don't even have to go to class.
Bottom line, NIL and the portal can only work as well at ND as recruiting which hasn't REGULARLY FEATURED 5-Stars in DECADES. I have video of Kelly from a few years ago explaining to an interviewer that consistent top-5 classes at ND are a PIPE DREAM.
Simply put, THERE IS NO SCENARIO where ND gets back to the kind of rosters it had after WWII and during Holtz's first years.
The problem with ND's football program is that it's an UNDERUTILIZED ASSET that has HAMSTRUNG ITSELF from being able to BUILD MORE CAPITAL.
But that's what the ADMIN apparently prefers. Or else it would loosen up and allow the RIGHT COACHES to FIX THINGS.
If I'm not mistaken ND has dropped it administration a bit, but let's say they didn't
1991 Notre Dame didn't not have a stellar defense but their offense was sound and if the kicker wasn't injured they could of had a run for the NC.
Point to what's possible. Went Darnell left prior to the Sugar bowl Holtz took over the defense and played with in its limitations.....hardly rushed the passer because it was their weak point just contained Matthews and allowed the offense to control the ball and the clock.
Thats the formula there.
Ball control clock management.
I'm not saying Freeman is that kind of coach but he would be well served if he was.
Notre dame is very capable of recruiting excellent linemen, tightens, and running backs, and though the Irish had some excellent Wr its hasn't been its strong position.
The Irish has had some excellent defensive players and some good defenses but if Notre Dame wants to compete it can't have a fast pace offense because of the lack of excellent defensive players that qualify to come to ND....that has always been the issue.
Now in regards to Rice and Zorich in NDs history you are only talking about two player's so that's a poor argument
Like I said in the prior post look at the 1993 season showed the Irish were capable to working within their limitations, the 85 player rule, and get screwed out if a NC
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Well by this logic, Freeman has 7 years to start his 54-9….
That's a good point though Freeman needs to build up some goodwill and a resume to get there
The level of play....execution.....against Duke and Louisville on both sides of the ball screamed ineptitude. I don't buy how tired and worn out they were. Their opponents didn't have a bye week either. There is a leadership gap that is accumulating as the season wears on. I supported Freeman....and still do. But he is a green horn. The offense is not producing at a successful level. The defense is barely holding its own. I can see the need to trade up in assistant coaches....and that need had better be addressed. Golden will move on after this season....and already some of the pundits are suggesting that Freeman may take over the D coordinator duties. That would be a major mistake. This program needs proven and experienced coordinators who can maximize the talent level that exists; and who can help Freeman navigate the program week in and week out. Otherwise....Freeman and this program will get lost in the weeds.
I listened to Brady Quinn at length two days ago, and he buys it against Louiville. Three consecutive Saturday night Prime Time games in a row, starting with Ohio St., in his opinion played a significant factor in the last game.
MF is aware of any roster deficiencies and is recruiting with those in mind. He is doing a good job there.
He is working with only 1 of his classes in so far. How about a lil patience; at least another class!
He is working with only 1 of his classes in so far. How about a lil patience; at least another class!
So, ‘the fans made me do it’
I don’t think he’ll win a title because it’s just very difficult and unlikely all things considered. But the point about the defense wasn’t true at ND. Whatever is happening on defense this year at LSU is wild and Kelly has to take responsibility, but take a look at ND:
2021: 8th in defensive efficiency
2020: 22nd
2019: 5th
2018: 11th
2017: 10th
Our defense during this run was excellent.
I'm not doubting your numbers, but I looked at The Football Data Base total defense and from 2021 and 2017 Notre Dames defense total defense was between the 30s and 50th
I didn't see efficiency as a category but I imagine it's all subjective to a point
And by Academic requirements. It's not just to get into school. It's the stuff you have to do while in school. The courses, major options, the requirements. I think this scares off a lot of talent.
Defense grew weaker under Holtz the moment BARRY ALVAREZ LEFT. Same as when John Ray departed from Ara's staff.
Darnell was awful and Minter and Davie FAIR TO DECENT.
There's no question ND gets excellent talent -- but in my view, JUST NOT ENOUGH OF IT and too FEW -- IF ANY, THESE DAYS -- celebrated MARQUEE SKILL PLAYERS. Like Bama and Georgia today, ND used to STOCKPILE TALENT.
The approach taken by Holtz against Florida in the CEREAL BOWL was INGENIOUS. But Holtz was EXTREMELY RESOURCEFUL and NOT your average coach. Could you honestly see Freeman SCHEMING LIKE THAT? I can't. Particularly, after what we saw against Louisville.
It wasn't just Rice and Zorich -- though they were BOTH THE KEY PLAYER ON EITHER SIDE OF THE BALL. George Williams and Tony Brooks were also border-line, and both were eventually suspended. And then there was John Foley, a highly-touted Prop 48 player, who got seriously injured early in his career (the same neck nerve injury that ended my own college career) and a few more who don't readily come to mind.
BOTTOM LINE: it was a DIFFERENT LANDSCAPE. Had ND been operating in those days the way it has since, the Brooks Bros. could easily have wound up at OU and Watters and Rocket at Penn State.
Here's my UNDERLYING POINT on Kelly and Freeman. Kelly did FAR MORE GOOD for ND than harm. While Freeman, looked to me, to have been ANOINTED before he'd accomplished anything.
So, for me, NO INDICTMENT of the first guy, while the JURY'S STILL OUT on the second.
Will Freeman prove out?
I'M SKEPTICAL.
It’s not really subjective. Total defense is yards given up. yards given up once you have a lead and play soft are different than yards when the game is in doubt defensive efficiency takes this into account the run from 2017 to 2021 saw Notre Dame generally speaking have an excellent defense.
Yeah, I guess that's fair. It's what you wanted, so I don't know why you'd have a problem with it. But yes, he had recently just built his 'forever home' in South Bend, even though the recent rise of the word 'forever' used as an adjective in this way is a really disappointing rhetorical development.... and I would guess he was ready to retire at ND. But then there was this spike in the loathing for him amongst the toxic fans, even though he had brought ND back to elite annual contender status, and I'm guessing he just decided to bolt, and it was bit of an impulsive decision. And it was the Knute Rockne moment when he couldn't deny it to himself any longer....
I bet you that's how it went down. And now we got MF, and he's not terrible. But obviously, and predictably, the program is regressing....
He wanted to renegotiate his contract. ND said we will talk in 2023. He wanted to get paid more and have an evergreen contract until retirement. Then LSU made him their 4th offer. He went for the $$$ and the easier path.
Yeah, but dude, he was taking over for a shitty CW program that was a shambles. And it was a total paradigm shift, and he had us in the title game by year three. MF was taking over an annual playoff contender, and the hope presumably was he going to not fix what wasn't broken, and keep the program at about the same level. Even though obviously he would have to assert his own leadership and vision.
Or at least that would have been the hope. And it's not playing out that way thus far. It's not a disaster, and the OC fiasco was a totally self-inflicted situation, and could easily be rectified.... but still a definitely step down and step backwards for the program as of today....
What are you talking about?? How would BK as the all-time winning coach at ND(!).... compare to UM who never took the job to start with, for whatever reason, he didn't think he could win here, but who the hell really knows.....
Where is the relevant or apt comparison?
There is no relevance to your post, but there is to the one I responded to
And Marcus Freeman, unlike Brian Kelly who took over a dumpster fire, inherited a football program that was 44-6 in its previous 50 games, with two CFB playoff berths from 2018-2021.
