Did anybody think 10 years ago it would be Notre Dame's secondary that was carrying most of the weight on a playoff quality team?

[chaseball]

Shuler - stud
Morrison - 1st round stud
Gray - best pure cover corner in the game
Moore - best fr CB in the game
Watts - first team AA

a team will be lucky to have 1 or 2 of these guys on their roster, ND has 5 of them. And the rotational players in the secondary have been excellent as well. Guys like: Clark, Heard, and Jaylon Sneed (listed as a LB but used a lot like a safety in this defense)

This is the group doing the most damage on the team/producing the most value that is leading to one of the highest F+ in the modern history of Notre Dame.

5, 10, 15+ years ago the defensive passing game was probably the biggest weakness on the team. Now its one of the best in the country.

Amazing job being done by the combo of Mickens, Freeman, and Al Golden especially when you consider most of these players had middling prospect profiles coming out of HS.

 

[Patrish]

Shuler - stud
Morrison - 1st round stud
Grey - best pure cover corner in the game
Moore - best fr CB in the game
Watts - first team AA

a team will be lucky to have 1 or 2 of these guys on their roster, ND has 5 of them. And the rotational players in the secondary have been excellent as well. Guys like: Clark, Heard, and Jaylon Sneed (listed as a LB but used a lot like a safety in this defense)

This is the group doing the most damage on the team/producing the most value that is leading to one of the highest F+ in the modern history of Notre Dame.

5, 10, 15+ years ago the defensive passing game was probably the biggest weakness on the team. Now its one of the best in the country.

Amazing job being done by the combo of Mickens, Freeman, and Al Golden especially when you consider most of these players had middling prospect profiles coming out of HS.

This just shows how little you know about football

 

[Golson5]

Secondary is an elite group no doubt

 

[Quest4Twelve]

Shuler - stud
Morrison - 1st round stud
Grey - best pure cover corner in the game
Moore - best fr CB in the game
Watts - first team AA

a team will be lucky to have 1 or 2 of these guys on their roster, ND has 5 of them. And the rotational players in the secondary have been excellent as well. Guys like: Clark, Heard, and Jaylon Sneed (listed as a LB but used a lot like a safety in this defense)

This is the group doing the most damage on the team/producing the most value that is leading to one of the highest F+ in the modern history of Notre Dame.

5, 10, 15+ years ago the defensive passing game was probably the biggest weakness on the team. Now its one of the best in the country.

Amazing job being done by the combo of Mickens, Freeman, and Al Golden especially when you consider most of these players had middling prospect profiles coming out of HS.

One of your better post! Just think if they still had Traore and Bothelo to put heat on the passer??? Then again maybe its because of the injuries that made them better players? Who knows, but ND definitely has some studs in the backfield!

 

[Patrish]

Secondary is an elite group no doubt

Secondary is an elite group no doubt

Yes, but without a good DLine and solid LB corps it’s difficult for DB’s to perform at a high level.

Defense is a multi-tiered symbiotic system

 

[nd4life211]

Secondary is the best in the country, even without Morrison. You are way off on Gray though, he’s not even the best cover corner on his own team.

Gray is very undisciplined in his technique. I’ve caught him lunging at receivers in press and missing, resulting in him grabbing. His eye discipline is very suspect, often looking in the backfield in man coverage when he doesn’t have hands on the receiver or know where he is. This is DB 101 stuff.

He’s a great corner still, but nowhere near the best cover corner in the country.

 

[Patrish]

Secondary is the best in the country, even without Morrison. You are way off on Gray though, he’s not even the best cover corner on his own team.

Gray is very undisciplined in his technique. I’ve caught him lunging at receivers in press and missing, resulting in him grabbing. His eye discipline is very suspect, often looking in the backfield in man coverage when he doesn’t have hands on the receiver or know where he is. This is DB 101 stuff.

He’s a great corner still, but nowhere near the best cover corner in the country.

I’m curious, how did you “catch him” and see those things when the camera follows the ball rather than the individual receivers who may never have the ball thrown to them ?

 

[nd4life211]

I’m curious, how did you “catch him” and see those things when the camera follows the ball rather than the individual receivers who may never have the ball thrown to them ?

These were moments where Gray’s receiver was targeted. Also the camera will sometimes show it on replays where they are focused on the secondary and receivers.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Well Christian Gray got passed on pretty badly vs USC. I wonder if the USC staff knew he was super vulnerable to being lit up, after watching his film, and realizing what a nincompoop he is in coverage, almost like someone plucked off the street, but still a great athlete, and a tough competitor, yada yada. But CB skills severely lacking. And USC saw through the hype. And then like, finally at the end, USC is thinking this is like candy from a baby, one of the worst CBs we've ever faced, and they go to the well yet again, but he under throws it, and CG who is a good hustler if nothing else, and there isn't much else, makes a gangly sort of play to get the interception and ends up running it all the way back. Where he gets to flash his pure physical speed, which, no one can deny him that.

I think we should isolate him man on man vs J Smith all game just to give him a chance to prove himself, to redeem himself. Doesn't matter how many catches he gives up in the process, he'll get a pic six eventually and we'll win the game.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Shuler - stud
Morrison - 1st round stud
Grey - best pure cover corner in the game
Moore - best fr CB in the game
Watts - first team AA

a team will be lucky to have 1 or 2 of these guys on their roster, ND has 5 of them. And the rotational players in the secondary have been excellent as well. Guys like: Clark, Heard, and Jaylon Sneed (listed as a LB but used a lot like a safety in this defense)

This is the group doing the most damage on the team/producing the most value that is leading to one of the highest F+ in the modern history of Notre Dame.

5, 10, 15+ years ago the defensive passing game was probably the biggest weakness on the team. Now its one of the best in the country.

Amazing job being done by the combo of Mickens, Freeman, and Al Golden especially when you consider most of these players had middling prospect profiles coming out of HS.

They were all four star recruits, though maybe not Watts, I'm not going to check. I think he was four stars and got demoted to three stars. But I believe fans and the pundits all liked Watts and considered him a sleeper when he committed. Or not even a sleeper just a good prospect. After all he was a low four star prospect, which is better than middling. But I was the only one who foresaw him switching to S, and not WR which was very much his projected position. And that was just from watching his HS clips. I don't know shit about football, and breaking down film, he just looked like a natural at DB, very physical and vigorous and unhesitating in the way played. And he labored more on offense. Very athletic and good and whatnot, but he didn't have the super sharp cuts in his routes, and was more of a raw talent. And it just seemed like he'd better utilized on defense, and would fit his natural competitive and athletic gifts. And S, not CB. So you can imagine I feel pretty darn validated at what a superstar he's become, leading the nation's top DB unit into the national championship game.

And I think CG was like a top recruit, not even a low four star. Top 100 type, once again not checking the rankings for confirmation, even though I totally could. So 'middling' is not the right adjective. They were all four star recruits. I guess you could use the word if your standard or frame of reference is an upper tier SEC program, and their expectations. Which is of course what your standard would be, that's all you talk about. So they probably were middling.

 

[nptb]

Secondary is the best in the country, even without Morrison. You are way off on Gray though, he’s not even the best cover corner on his own team.

Gray is very undisciplined in his technique. I’ve caught him lunging at receivers in press and missing, resulting in him grabbing. His eye discipline is very suspect, often looking in the backfield in man coverage when he doesn’t have hands on the receiver or know where he is. This is DB 101 stuff.

He’s a great corner still, but nowhere near the best cover corner in the country.

Travis Hunter is the best cover corner I've seen in college since Charles Woodson and Champ Bailey. So since he's still technically in college, he is the best cover corner in college now imo.

 

[NDinNJ]

Secondary is the best in the country, even without Morrison. You are way off on Gray though, he’s not even the best cover corner on his own team.

Gray is very undisciplined in his technique. I’ve caught him lunging at receivers in press and missing, resulting in him grabbing. His eye discipline is very suspect, often looking in the backfield in man coverage when he doesn’t have hands on the receiver or know where he is. This is DB 101 stuff.

He’s a great corner still, but nowhere near the best cover corner in the country.

 

[NDinNJ]

These were moments where Gray’s receiver was targeted. Also the camera will sometimes show it on replays where they are focused on the secondary and receivers.

I suggest you look at the thread where I posted Orlovsky's break down of Allar's Int. Orlovsky praises the staff, the defense, and Gray in how disciplined they are. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. I've never seen Gray "Lunge" at a receiver. Another wannabe armchair coach and critic.

 

[Golson5]

Travis Hunter is the best cover corner I've seen in college since Charles Woodson and Champ Bailey. So since he's still technically in college, he is the best cover corner in college now imo.

No chance. He got burned multiple times last year and this year. Ayomanor had like 200 on him last year

 

[Golson5]

I suggest you look at the thread where I posted Orlovsky's break down of Allar's Int. Orlovsky praises the staff, the defense, and Gray in how disciplined thy are. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. I've never seen Gray "Lunge" at a receiver. Another wannabe armchair coach and critic.

In his defense, Gray is the 3rd best cover guy on our team. Morrison and Moore are above him

 

[NDinNJ]

In his defense, Gray is the 3rd best cover guy on our team. Morrison and Moore are above him

I'm not questioning that, but for him to say he's not disciplined and he's lunging at receivers is absurd.

 

[nptb]

No chance. He got burned multiple times last year and this year. Ayomanor had like 200 on him last year

Last year he got beat about 4 times total and that was with them playing their zone coverage. He is a high risk player who loves to gamble for the pick or big hit. He guesses right more than any player I can remember at cb. This year he's been lights out.

Every corner is going to get beat at some point and time I don't care who you are. People say that Will Johnson was very good against Marvin Harrison which was a lie. Harrison won that matchup completely in my opinion. Morrison shut down Harrison last year convincingly. Morrison also struggled against Louisville two years in a row but I still believe he's elite of elite.

 

[Golson5]

Last year he got beat about 4 times total and that was with them playing their zone coverage. He is a high risk player who loves to gamble for the pick or big hit. He guesses right more than any player I can remember at cb. This year he's been lights out.

Every corner is going to get beat at some point and time I don't care who you are. People say that Will Johnson was very good against Marvin Harrison which was a lie. Harrison won that matchup completely in my opinion. Morrison shut down Harrison last year convincingly. Morrison also struggled against Louisville two years in a row but I still believe he's elite of elite.

Hunter is the best playmaker of the group but not the best cover guy at this point. He gets beat way more than a number 1 guy should. Probably because he plays both ways but Morrison and Johnson are both better cover guys right now

 

[nptb]

Hunter is the best playmaker of the group but not the best cover guy at this point. He gets beat way more than a number 1 guy should. Probably because he plays both ways but Morrison and Johnson are both better cover guys right now

This is false. Hunter is usually only tested in the first half, as teams learn that lesson, that the dude is a problem.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Travis Hunter is the best cover corner I've seen in college since Charles Woodson and Champ Bailey. So since he's still technically in college, he is the best cover corner in college now imo.

Yeah? That's high praise. Was Charles Woodson that good a cover corner? I mean I knew he was good, but there's a lot of CBs that have come down the pike since then. And he was a two player too, that's why he won the Heisman. He didn't put anywhere near the numbers TH did at WR though. Maybe TH really is a transcendent superstar. Obviously a prolific, good WR at a minimum. And apparently one of the great cover corners to ever lace 'em up, and not merely, really good. What would really be something is if he played both ways in the NFL full time, and was all pro at both, and played in the pro bowl both ways. Then you'd have to give him the props.

 

[nptb]

Yeah? That's high praise. Was Charles Woodson that good a cover corner? I mean I knew he was good, but there's a lot of CBs that have come down the pike since then. And he was a two player too, that's why he won the Heisman. He didn't put anywhere near the numbers TH did at WR though. Maybe TH really is a transcendent superstar. Obviously a prolific, good WR at a minimum. And apparently one of the great cover corners to ever lace 'em up, and not merely, really good. What would really be something is if he played both ways in the NFL full time, and was all pro at both, and played in the pro bowl both ways. Then you'd have to give him the props.

Those hits on the next level are a lot bigger. Watching the Packers games yesterday, they had a guy go down like 3 or 4 plays in a row after nice clean hits. I think it'll be situational at the next level.

 

[nd4life211]

I suggest you look at the thread where I posted Orlovsky's break down of Allar's Int. Orlovsky praises the staff, the defense, and Gray in how disciplined they are. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. I've never seen Gray "Lunge" at a receiver. Another wannabe armchair coach and critic.

You’re looking at one play and talking about Gray being disciplined all the time. No one is judged by their best play, it’s the totality of their play and consistency.

I suggest you watch the USC, Indiana and Georgia games. I played defensive back at the college level and have coached at the high school level for 5 years. Gray has a habit of looking in the backfield without having hands on the receiver. You always want a hand on the hip or to be leaning into the receiver before turning back for the ball (Benjamin Morrison is outstanding at this). Gray has gotten beat deep numerous times in the last month and a bit because he turns back without knowing where the receiver is.

Watch the penalty before his called back pick against PSU. Gray tried to get hands on the receiver and missed, so he grabbed him. What Gray needs to do is maintain his shade and let the receiver come to him when he makes contact, not having to lunge or fully extend his arms, which if you do that and miss, the receiver gets behind you.

Gray is a great cornerback, I’m simply informing the OP that he’s far from the best cover guy in the country. I’m sure Gray exhibited superb discipline on the end of game pick, but he doesn’t do that on an every down basis. Heck, I’m not sure any college db does.

 

[Golson5]

This is false. Hunter is usually only tested in the first half, as teams learn that lesson, that the dude is a problem.

I watched him many games. I watched Ayomanor embarass him last year

 

[chaseball]

I was watching "The Film Guy's" (film junkie/ex player who breaks down the coach's film of a game on youtube) he's gushing over and over about Christian Gray's performance on film vs PSU. Says Gray is one of the best pure cover corners (maybe not as good all around as some other corners in the game but one of the best vs the pass) and that he'll be a 10 year pro in the NFL.

Part 1

Part 2

 

[NDinNJ]

You’re looking at one play and talking about Gray being disciplined all the time. No one is judged by their best play, it’s the totality of their play and consistency.

I suggest you watch the USC, Indiana and Georgia games. I played defensive back at the college level and have coached at the high school level for 5 years. Gray has a habit of looking in the backfield without having hands on the receiver. You always want a hand on the hip or to be leaning into the receiver before turning back for the ball (Benjamin Morrison is outstanding at this). Gray has gotten beat deep numerous times in the last month and a bit because he turns back without knowing where the receiver is.

Watch the penalty before his called back pick against PSU. Gray tried to get hands on the receiver and missed, so he grabbed him. What Gray needs to do is maintain his shade and let the receiver come to him when he makes contact, not having to lunge or fully extend his arms, which if you do that and miss, the receiver gets behind you.

Gray is a great cornerback, I’m simply informing the OP that he’s far from the best cover guy in the country. I’m sure Gray exhibited superb discipline on the end of game pick, but he doesn’t do that on an every down basis. Heck, I’m not sure any college db does.

I'm agree he's not, but to say he lunges at receivers when he in fact doesn't is a false narrative.

 

[nd4life211]

I'm agree he's not, but to say he lunges at receivers when he in fact doesn't is a false narrative.

I’ve seen him extend his arms and miss the receiver when trying to press while lunging forward, specifically the called back int vs PSU. I however am more than satisfied with his play this year.

I think he gets targeted more because Moore is so darn talented, there’s no point targeting him.

 

[chaseball]

btw using the 247 composite:

Xavier Watts was the #384 player overall (low 4 star) -- rated as a WR
Adon Shuler #318 overall (low 4 star)
Ben Morrison #311 overall (low 4 star)
Christian Gray #101 overall (high 4 star)
Leonard Moore #430 overall (low 4 star)

There's typically about 350 prospects rated as 4 star any given class.

These DBs at Notre Dame were middling prospects (less Christian Gray) at the P4 level who have been coached up/developed into dominant football players.

 

[nd4life211]

btw using the 247 composite:

Xavier Watts was the #384 player overall (low 4 star) -- rated as a WR
Adon Shuler #318 overall (low 4 star)
Ben Morrison #311 overall (low 4 star)
Christian Gray #101 overall (high 4 star)
Leonard Moore #430 overall (low 4 star)

There's typically about 350 prospects rated as 4 star any given class.

These guys are far away from the top 100 prospects where usually you will find your impact players on a roster.

These DBs at Notre Dame are midddling prospects at the high P4 level who have been coached up into dominant football players.

Oh, so it’s not just recruiting then… development counts for something too…

It’s funny you will complain constantly about recruiting in your threads, yet fail to acknowledge development, arguably the next most important thing for a program after recruiting.

This is the 5th best roster in terms of average player rating. When you take into account development (which is likely the best in the country, when you look at how our depth has performed), it’s right near the top.

Recruiting means little without development or coaching… see Auburn, FSU, OU, Florida and A&M if you still fail to understand this.

 

[savvyandsassier]

btw using the 247 composite:

Xavier Watts was the #384 player overall (low 4 star) -- rated as a WR
Adon Shuler #318 overall (low 4 star)
Ben Morrison #311 overall (low 4 star)
Christian Gray #101 overall (high 4 star)
Leonard Moore #430 overall (low 4 star)

There's typically about 350 prospects rated as 4 star any given class.

These DBs at Notre Dame are middling prospects at the high P4 level who have been coached up/developed into dominant football players.

Right, exactly what I said. Middling by, let's say vintage Saban Bama standards, or Pete Carroll USC standards. Which is what you want so desperately for ND. And you got to use the word 'middling' that way. Which will piss off the locals, stir the hornet's nest! It's a word that sound just like it what it means. Even if you'd never heard the word before in your life you'd still know intuitively that it wasn't complimentary.

 

[raulduke_007]

btw using the 247 composite:

Xavier Watts was the #384 player overall (low 4 star) -- rated as a WR
Adon Shuler #318 overall (low 4 star)
Ben Morrison #311 overall (low 4 star)
Christian Gray #101 overall (high 4 star)
Leonard Moore #430 overall (low 4 star)

There's typically about 350 prospects rated as 4 star any given class.

These DBs at Notre Dame were middling prospects (less Christian Gray) at the high P4 level who have been coached up/developed into dominant football players.

Moore is one of the best lockdown CB's in CFB as a true frosh. He has been the biggest surprise this year. If he contiues his progression he will be a top 15 to top 10 pick. Kid is special. Gray is probably a 3rd day right now. X is probably late 1st early 2nd and Shuler mid to late 2nd. That is a hell of a hual. Considering Ben Mo was a top 20ish 1st rounder.

 

[chaseball]

Oh, so it’s not just recruiting then… development counts for something too…

It’s funny you will complain constantly about recruiting in your threads, yet fail to acknowledge development, arguably the next most important thing for a program after recruiting.

This is the 5th best roster in terms of average player rating. When you take into account development (which is likely the best in the country, when you look at how our depth has performed), it’s right near the top.

Recruiting means little without development or coaching… see Auburn, FSU and A&M if you still fail to understand this.

Read my post history, I've constantly praised the player development and coaching on this team (dating back to the BK era). Its the recruiting/talent I rail on constantly.

You can coach up middling prospects at the high P4 level with great coaching, scheme, development, etc. but you can't coach up these guys more than other great coaching staffs that have better raw material to work with (better raw prospects like OSU)

In college football its a battle for building the best football team in the country. There's no 2nd place. Its a all or nothing competition. You have to have the upside necessary to be the very best team in college football in any given year in order to push the odds in your favor.

ND isn't even in the first tier of rosters they are more in the middle to back end of the 2nd tier.

The talent composite rankings at 247 (which i use to compare 85 man rosters) uses a Gaussian formula. Notre Dame has a high "per player" average in recruiting because they do really well with low to mid 4 star types where other teams will put more efforts on top 100 impact players (as they should) and then compliment those high 4 star and 5 star guys with more 3 star types.

ND does better than most of the 2nd tier of rosters at the mid-level of their class but is completely out classed with the impact prospects of the highest quality (5 star and high 4 star guys) who their peers are monopolizing at their expense. This year with this coaching staff ND isn't being handicapped as much as they typically are with this talent composition, but over the last 20 years, it's the teams dominating the impact 5 star and high 4 star prospects that are bringing home the national title trophies in the very large majority of cases.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Oh, so it’s not just recruiting then… development counts for something too…

It’s funny you will complain constantly about recruiting in your threads, yet fail to acknowledge development, arguably the next most important thing for a program after recruiting.

This is the 5th best roster in terms of average player rating. When you take into account development (which is likely the best in the country, when you look at how our depth has performed), it’s right near the top.

Recruiting means little without development or coaching… see Auburn, FSU, OU, Florida and A&M if you still fail to understand this.

Are we really fifth? I figured we were more like top 12, in terms of composite recruiting ranking over a four year stretch, even with ND's supposedly sub-SEC caliber talent, which would put us by definition in the top 12 meaning just on raw talent alone we're already a playoff program.

And so by fifth, you mean the current remaining, active roster, and their respective individual recruiting rankings, after any addition or subtraction to the roster, which makes more sense in the age of the transfer portal where your roster can be totally turned upside down in just a few years from whatever the previous HS recruiting classes projected it to become. In any case, that's very high, and ND does not have a raw talent excuse anymore. Only four teams more talented on paper.

 

[NDinNJ]

Oh, so it’s not just recruiting then… development counts for something too…

It’s funny you will complain constantly about recruiting in your threads, yet fail to acknowledge development, arguably the next most important thing for a program after recruiting.

This is the 5th best roster in terms of average player rating. When you take into account development (which is likely the best in the country, when you look at how our depth has performed), it’s right near the top.

Recruiting means little without development or coaching… see Auburn, FSU, OU, Florida and A&M if you still fail to understand this.

It's useless to try and explain this to him. He cannot grasp the concept that a 4 star recruit can be developed into a 5 star athlete, likewise a 5 star recruit can develop into a 4 star athlete.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Read my post history, I've constantly praised the player development and coaching on this team (dating back to the BK era). Its the recruiting/talent I rail on constantly.

You can coach up middling prospects at the high P4 level with great coaching, scheme, development, etc. but you can't coach up these guys more than other great coaching staffs that have better raw material to work with (better raw prospects like OSU)

In college football its a battle for building the best football team in the country. There's no 2nd place. Its a all or nothing competition. You have to have the upside necessary to be the very best team in college football in any given year in order to push the odds in your favor.

ND isn't even in the first tier of rosters they are more in the middle to back end of the 2nd tier.

The talent composite rankings at 247 (which i use to compare 85 man rosters) uses a Gaussian formula. Notre Dame has a high "per player" average in recruiting because they do really well with low to mid 4 star types where other teams will put more efforts on top 100 impact players (as they should) and then compliment those high 4 star and 5 star guys with more 3 star types.

ND does better than a lot of other programs at the mid-level of their class but is completely out classed with the impact prospects of the highest quality (5 star and high 4 star guys). This year with this coaching staff this strategy is working, but over the last 20 years, it's the teams dominating the impact 5 star and high 4 star prospects that are bringing home the national title trophies.

Oh shit a gaussian formula?? Alright, now we definitely need to step up our recruiting. A gaussian formula? Gaussian? The mofo's probably turning over in his grave right about now, if he was perusing our roster. And saying, You guys suck! You need elite guys, you can't just have a whole roster of middling 4 star nobodies, thinking just because you have a high average star rating you're going to be kicking ass. Follow my formula! This shit is nonlinear. Two or three legit five stars is practically unquantifiable, almost like chaos theory or something, with all the great things you'd be capable of with just a handful of truly elite recruits. They're irreplaceable, you have to have them! You get nothing but middling four stars then you get nothing but middling results. Trust me, I know, I'm Gauss, famous mathematician. That's why I developed these formulas.

 

[chaseball]

Are we really fifth? I figured we were more like top 12, in terms of composite recruiting ranking over a four year stretch, even with ND's supposedly sub-SEC caliber talent, which would put us by definition in the top 12 meaning just on raw talent alone we're already a playoff program.

And so by fifth, you mean the current remaining, active roster, and their respective individual recruiting rankings, after any addition or subtraction to the roster, which makes more sense in the age of the transfer portal where your roster can be totally turned upside down in just a few years from whatever the previous HS recruiting classes projected it to become. In any case, that's very high, and ND does not have a raw talent excuse anymore. Only four teams more talented on paper.

There's tiers among the top 12 though.

You got a handful of about 4-5 teams that are dominating recruiting any given year, then you got a 2nd tier from #6-#15 who are sharing the leftover talent.

Those teams in the top 4-5 have a huge handicap-advantage over the rest of the field.

Being top 12 is having playoff caliber talent, but if you aren't in the first tier of talent, your chances for winning a national title, no matter how good the coaching is, is very small (which is where ND finds itself right now facing a roster that is in the first tier in talent in OSU)

OSU has 15 five-star to NDs 1 five-star
OSU has just as many 4 star players as ND (many of which are in the top 100)
nearly half of OSUs 85 man roster is top 100 talent (ND has a total of 10-15 players in the top 100)

These rosters aren't even on the same planet.

ND has a great coaching staff who has coached this roster up into a level of production above their talent, but OSUs coaching staff is also very elite/one of the best in the country and they too develop the hell out of their players. But they simply just have a lot more raw material to work with.

Its like rival race-car drivers facing off in a race. OSU and ND are both elite drivers (elite coaches) but OSU has the much faster/better car.

 

[nd4life211]

Read my post history, I've constantly praised the player development and coaching on this team (dating back to the BK era). Its the recruiting/talent I rail on constantly.

You can coach up middling prospects at the high P4 level with great coaching, scheme, development, etc. but you can't coach up these guys more than other great coaching staffs that have better raw material to work with (better raw prospects like OSU)

In college football its a battle for building the best football team in the country. There's no 2nd place. Its a all or nothing competition. You have to have the upside necessary to be the very best team in college football in any given year in order to push the odds in your favor.

ND isn't even in the first tier of rosters they are more in the middle to back end of the 2nd tier.

The talent composite rankings at 247 (which i use to compare 85 man rosters) uses a Gaussian formula. Notre Dame has a high "per player" average in recruiting because they do really well with low to mid 4 star types where other teams will put more efforts on top 100 impact players (as they should) and then compliment those high 4 star and 5 star guys with more 3 star types.

ND does better than most of the 2nd tier of rosters at the mid-level of their class but is completely out classed with the impact prospects of the highest quality (5 star and high 4 star guys) who their peers are monopolizing at their expense. This year with this coaching staff ND isn't being handicapped as much as they typically are with this talent composition, but over the last 20 years, it's the teams dominating the impact 5 star and high 4 star prospects that are bringing home the national title trophies in the very large majority of cases.

I’ve tried to explain to you that most 5 star guys don’t want to come to ND due to the strict demands in the classroom and there are very few who can even qualify academically.

Freeman and ND are recruiting a specific type of prospect. One who sees the value of Notre Dame and puts being a student before being an athlete. Unfortunately a lot of 5 stars don’t want to come to ND because they only have their eyes on the NFL. Freeman is okay with that and based on the results this year, we should all be too.

We don’t lose many guys to the portal because of the culture. These guys are bought into the team and we don’t have divas here. You can whine all you want about recruiting, Notre Dame will likely not have more than 5 or 6 five stars at any given time and the sooner off you accept that, the better off you will be.

 

[raulduke_007]

Read my post history, I've constantly praised the player development and coaching on this team (dating back to the BK era). Its the recruiting/talent I rail on constantly.

You can coach up middling prospects at the high P4 level with great coaching, scheme, development, etc. but you can't coach up these guys more than other great coaching staffs that have better raw material to work with (better raw prospects like OSU)

In college football its a battle for building the best football team in the country. There's no 2nd place. Its a all or nothing competition. You have to have the upside necessary to be the very best team in college football in any given year in order to push the odds in your favor.

ND isn't even in the first tier of rosters they are more in the middle to back end of the 2nd tier.

The talent composite rankings at 247 (which i use to compare 85 man rosters) uses a Gaussian formula. Notre Dame has a high "per player" average in recruiting because they do really well with low to mid 4 star types where other teams will put more efforts on top 100 impact players (as they should) and then compliment those high 4 star and 5 star guys with more 3 star types.

ND does better than most of the 2nd tier of rosters at the mid-level of their class but is completely out classed with the impact prospects of the highest quality (5 star and high 4 star guys) who their peers are monopolizing at their expense. This year with this coaching staff ND isn't being handicapped as much as they typically are with this talent composition, but over the last 20 years, it's the teams dominating the impact 5 star and high 4 star prospects that are bringing home the national title trophies in the very large majority of cases.

They're not 2nd tier recruits sport. Because you never been around football you think a 5 star means more than it actually mean. For instance a 5 star on paper that's a bad fit for your scheme & culture will produce a lesser result than a "2nd tier" 4 star. Now you might get more points from a recruiting site but be worse off on the field. The key to putting a team together is based on your style & culture.

 

[chaseball]

They're not 2nd tier recruits sport. Because you never been around football you think a 5 star means more than it actually mean. For instance a 5 star on paper that's a bad fit for your scheme & culture will produce a lesser result than a "2nd tier" 4 star. Now you might get more points from a recruiting site but be worse off on the field. The key to putting a team together is based on your style & culture.

The problem with this take is that its not backed up by the results. The teams dominating college football and winning the very large majority of national championships over the last 25ish years (as far as the recruiting databases go back) are in fact the teams monopolizing the highest rated prospects (winning the recruiting trail national championships)

Raw talent > (is greater than) scheme/fit/culture

 

[Golson5]

btw using the 247 composite:

Xavier Watts was the #384 player overall (low 4 star) -- rated as a WR
Adon Shuler #318 overall (low 4 star)
Ben Morrison #311 overall (low 4 star)
Christian Gray #101 overall (high 4 star)
Leonard Moore #430 overall (low 4 star)

There's typically about 350 prospects rated as 4 star any given class.

These DBs at Notre Dame were middling prospects (less Christian Gray) at the P4 level who have been coached up/developed into dominant football players.

There's about 450 4 star prospects a year.

And none were middling prospects

 

[Golson5]

A lot on this board dislike Driskell but he had both Morrison and Moore as top 100 players and talked for months and months how underrated they were. They were 2 of his favorite recruits in the last 5 years.

He nailed both