im rooting against him but im not betting against him. hes got an uphill battle though. his current team is not as talented as ND and his recruiting classes arent even close to ours.
Dear every poster that is against the Freeman hire
- Thread starter Zorich 88
- Start date
9-3?
Yea, he won't last 5 years. It's going to be the return of ocho cinco for Kelly.
ND never played OSU so you don’t have a clue as to how Kelly would have coached that game.
And you have a coach with ZERO head coaching experience.
I have facts and all you have is hope.
WHY aren’t the restrictions as crippling as you think ?Here is my take: the answer is somewhat nuanced. As rionegro has stated, the average football player that ND recruits would likely not be admitted as a student were it not for the fact that he didn't play football. So yes, the admissions standard for football players at ND is somewhat relaxed. I have been told as much by a person who served as the assistant provost of admissions for more than a decade. (We were on a friendly basis from playing an occasional round of golf together, and that is how those discussions occurred.) As someone else has pointed out, we aren't recruiting Rhodes Scholars to play football at ND. And as rionegro has also pointed out, athletes at ND (not just football players) are given all kinds of academic assistance so that they can keep enrolled.
That said, I suspect that admissions standards for football players at some of the football factories (Bama, UGA, TAMU, etc.) are also relaxed. As public universities, their admissions standards for students in the general student body are simply not as rigorous. Even with that, I suspect some of the players that are let in can barely read. In fact, I suspect there are more than a few that cannot read at all. Remember the scandal with UNC's basketball program a few years ago? One of their star players, Rashad McCants, made the Dean's list with straight A's DESPITE not having attended a single class:
McCants says he took sham classes at UNC
From June 1014: Former North Carolina star Rashad McCants told Steve Delsohn of "Outside the Lines" that he could have been academically ineligible to play during the '04-05 national title season had he not been provided fraudulent academic assistance.www.espn.com
I suspect (but admittedly have no actual evidence) that some of this same kind of monkey business goes on at some of the football factory schools. We have all seen post-game interviews of football players. Generally speaking, kids that go to ND comport themselves very well: they are well spoken and can speak in coherent sentences. Kids at some of the football factory schools are another story, however. Many of them are unable to articulate a coherent thought. That, of course, is a little thing, but I think it speaks to the kind of athlete that some of the football factory schools are admitting.
The biggest difference probably lies in the fact that ND expects it student athletes to go to class, and they are not enrolled in "special" programs created for athletes. You have mentioned the calculus requirement; I believe that still exists, though someone can correct me if I am wrong. I suppose some kids are turned off by the fact that they will actually have to attend class at ND. Does that mean, as Brian Kelly famously said, that we are shopping down a different aisle? Maybe, but my personal view is that the recruiting disadvantage presented by ND's admissions and academic standards is probably overblown. And if there is a disadvantage, it is, as you have pointed out, a self-imposed one. (It is also one that I am perfectly OK with.)
So to answer the question you pose as to whether ND suffers from a restricted talent pool, I suppose the answer is a conditional "yes," but the restrictions may not be as crippling as you think them to be.
Do you ever watch the post game player interviews and notice the difference in articulation between ND‘s players and others ?
I agree that Fickell is an outstanding coach. I think he will win wherever he goes.
Ok then, tell me what Kelly's record is against 10 win teams? Without even looking I know it's putrid. He can't win the games that mean the most. He's proven it over and over.
Sure let's blame the players for all the losses and give credit to Kelly for all the wins. It's absurd.
That's because Coach O > Coach Kelly.
Coach O - 1 National Championship
Coach Kelly - ZERO National Championships
Kelly’s prior record is irrelevant when discussing the Oklahoma State game.
By your reasoning Alabama couldn’t lose to Georgia.
How did that work out for you ?
What’s absurd is your seriously deranged reasoning and flawed conclusions.
Cite for us where anyone other than you stated that all the losses are the players fault and that all the wins should be credited to Kelly.
it would seem that some moron, absent any football knowledge, has obtained your password and is using your computer and posting on this site.
please do us all a favor and change your password.
thanks
I guess that’s why the score was only 17-6 after three quarters
YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT FOOTBALL
I knew before the game they didnt have a chance. And the game proved exactly that
Thanks for that comprehensive and clearly thought out response which I would assume took you more than 15 seconds to produce.Here is my take: the answer is somewhat nuanced. As rionegro has stated, the average football player that ND recruits would likely not be admitted as a student were it not for the fact that he didn't play football. So yes, the admissions standard for football players at ND is somewhat relaxed. I have been told as much by a person who served as the assistant provost of admissions for more than a decade. (We were on a friendly basis from playing an occasional round of golf together, and that is how those discussions occurred.) As someone else has pointed out, we aren't recruiting Rhodes Scholars to play football at ND. And as rionegro has also pointed out, athletes at ND (not just football players) are given all kinds of academic assistance so that they can keep enrolled.
That said, I suspect that admissions standards for football players at some of the football factories (Bama, UGA, TAMU, etc.) are also relaxed. As public universities, their admissions standards for students in the general student body are simply not as rigorous. Even with that, I suspect some of the players that are let in can barely read. In fact, I suspect there are more than a few that cannot read at all. Remember the scandal with UNC's basketball program a few years ago? One of their star players, Rashad McCants, made the Dean's list with straight A's DESPITE not having attended a single class:
McCants says he took sham classes at UNC
From June 1014: Former North Carolina star Rashad McCants told Steve Delsohn of "Outside the Lines" that he could have been academically ineligible to play during the '04-05 national title season had he not been provided fraudulent academic assistance.
I suspect (but admittedly have no actual evidence) that some of this same kind of monkey business goes on at some of the football factory schools. We have all seen post-game interviews of football players. Generally speaking, kids that go to ND comport themselves very well: they are well spoken and can speak in coherent sentences. Kids at some of the football factory schools are another story, however. Many of them are unable to articulate a coherent thought. That, of course, is a little thing, but I think it speaks to the kind of athlete that some of the football factory schools are admitting.
The biggest difference probably lies in the fact that ND expects it student athletes to go to class, and they are not enrolled in "special" programs created for athletes. You have mentioned the calculus requirement; I believe that still exists, though someone can correct me if I am wrong. I suppose some kids are turned off by the fact that they will actually have to attend class at ND. Does that mean, as Brian Kelly famously said, that we are shopping down a different aisle? Maybe, but my personal view is that the recruiting disadvantage presented by ND's admissions and academic standards is probably overblown. And if there is a disadvantage, it is, as you have pointed out, a self-imposed one. (It is also one that I am perfectly OK with.)
So to answer the question you pose as to whether ND suffers from a restricted talent pool, I suppose the answer is a conditional "yes," but the restrictions may not be as crippling as you think them to be.
I hear you loud and clear and – as I recall – once got a similar “nuanced” response from when I was active on the other board.
So, here’s how I read what you’re saying:
Even though ND operates on an athlete-preferential basis as well, it does so in a LESS EXTREME WAY. It cuts corners but not as SHARPLY. This results in what you call A LESS RESTRICTED TALENT POOL THAN I IMAGINE.
Fine.
But if this is the case, doesn’t there remain a recruiting impediment that is LARGELY STRUCTURAL? It would seem so, wouldn’t it, since failing to get those same UBER-GUYS every year who wind up at OHIO STATE has been a problem for ALMOST 30 years regardless of ND’s coach?
And how many guys does that amount to a year? Does the consistent lack of 5-star recruits, IN FACT, mean the difference between beating Alabama and getting pounded? History would argue, HEY, IT SURE LOOKS THAT WAY.
So, then regardless of how wide it is – and, again, I don’t know despite my 5-star strikeout example – there is STILL A CRITICAL GAP.
In which case, just how much “TIDE-TURNING” impact can any one coach make even if the consensus is that he’s GOD’S GIFT TO RECRUITING?
Specifically, how does Marcus Freeman go that last EXTRA MILE Kelly couldn’t go unless ND LOOKS THE OTHER WAY A LITTLE BIT MORE! Or maybe A LOT MORE.
Point is, Freeman is still operating WITHIN THE SAME CONSTRAINTS. In which case, the “LAZY RECRUITER” vs. “UBER RECRUITER” dichotomy is not the critical determinant as UBER RECRUITING will only TAKE ND SO FAR.
And that includes even if ND can divert in its direction all of Stanford’s and NW’s best targets or get them to transfer to ND later. Because as I see it, that still won’t be enough to allow ND to DRAW EVEN with schools than can pull in in excess of 5 Five-stars a year. Or to be more accurate, ANYONE THEY WANT.
So, while, yes, Freeman may be able to improve recruiting INCREMENTALLY, I can’t see how – if things are as you suggest – he can improve it DECISIVELY enough to propel ND past Alabama and those of THAT ILK.
You have to play within the parameters you’re given, and of that, ND’s more restrictive talent pools have produced AMPLE EVIDENCE -- RESULTS-WISE -- over the last 30 years, leading to endless parsing exercises on how to achieve the same results as teams with GREATER FIREPOWER. Or as I like to think of it, FOOLS ERRAND NUMBER ONE AS PER ALL ND MESSAGE BOARDS.
Neither FREEMAN ALONE – nor anyone else -- takes this program to greater heights without SUBSTANTIAL ASSISTANCE FROM ND ITSELF. And, personally, I don't think that's coming as too few ND people are inclined to support it. You've said yourself you don't want it.
Me, I'm agnostic on it as I see the entire sport as we know it imploding with the result that ND may need to make its own SEPARATE PEACE. What's coming is TOTAL MONETIZATION which no power in academe can stop even if they wanted to. And they don't. They're a CARTEL and will continue increasingly to operate like one.
Yes, but isn't QB supposedly ND's PERENNIAL MISSING LINK?
And if you get premier QB's, then you get premier WR's and tend to wind up with premier OFFENSES. As in teams that win NC's.
There's a knock-on effect.
As for 5-stars, I don't think any more will come just because of this coach or that. They still have to qualify. And many 5-stars don't. Then some simply don't wish to go to a more academic place like ND. It's not their idea of "COLLEGE."
They're looking for what's easiest. THEN ON TO THE LEAGUE.
I am backing it up. But I'm not a BLIND BETTOR. I explained to you the only times I even consider wagering. I've made my case. We'll see how it turns out.
Do you think you KNOW how this is going to turn out? Fine. Bet with someone else. I'm sure there are takers. There's probably even a LINE somewhere. I'm not the only one who understands the much greater risk of hiring a head coach with no experience.
Good luck with the bet.
You hit it on the head. If ND wants to stay in its spot in the current CFB landscape let alone improve its lot (i.e. win a National Championship), the University is going to have to up its game in the NIL business. You know what makes those recruiting disadvantages like climate and social life go away - money. Look at what Texas A&M did to grab the top recruiting class. Other institutions are likely to follow suit and Alabama and Georgia and Ohio State and USC won't sit idly by and watch while former also rans buy their way to the top. This is a critical moment for Notre Dame. They can decide to swim in the pool with the other sharks or stay on the shore and take what they can get from the efforts of Marcus Freeman and his staff as far as recruits and hope that they can muster 9-10 wins a year. I don't know what ND wants to do at this point. If someone who is an alum or otherwise connected to the University can respond, please enlighten me. I thought I read somewhere a year or so ago that Father Jenkins indicated the university would not play this game. I could be wrong. I don't blame ND if it doesn't want to go all in. It certainly has the resources to do it. But I also understand the argument that goes the other way. And I think I've read where some ND players have received NIL money through agreements from local businesses and that's all well and good, but it sounds like it's going nuclear at these other universities and I'm not sure ND is going to follow suit.
No, YOU hit it on the head. I merely TEED IT UP for you.
You're thinking three moves ahead here. GREAT POST!
How many times do I have to explain to you that UC having a chance isnt the issue ?
That staying with Alabama for 3 quarters proved that UC was a solid team
Notre Dame is not going to lower their academic standards to those of Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State, Texas A&M, Etc,, etc.
Ergo we will always be at a competitive disadvantage !
You are so far up Kelly's arse, you must be president of the Brian kelly fan club.
The goal of the Notre Dame program is to win a NC. Kelly was never going to win a NC, so no crying over spilled milk, he did ND a favor by leaving.
I couldn't agree more. But the endless parsing, would-be LOCK PICKING and/or attempts to find the right formula to PROVE that ND can STILL OVERCOME this DISADVANTAGE never stops. I think it's actually the MAIN FOCAL POINT of many of these ND boards. As though board posters could somehow resolve structural recruiting issues.
It's like a one-legged ass kicking contest in MAGICAL THINKING.
But if you don't "think" this way, YOU'RE BEING DISLOYAL or NOT A "REAL FAN."
What's wrong with being a REALISTIC FAN?
I mean what Baltimore Oriole fan expects them to compete for the WS title ANY YEAR, let alone EVERY YEAR.
ND is what it is. No more, no less.
I know that it’s difficult for you, but try to focus on the topic/issue.
Historically Alabama owned Georgia, so by your flawed logic, Alabama had to beat Georgia for the NC this year.
Your reasoning and your flawed conclusion we’re proven wrong.
No surprise there !
This is where limited cognitive abilities come into play.
i‘m no fan of Kelly’s, I presented my criticisms starting over a decade ago.
But, I recognize and credit him for taking over a mediocre program and turning it into a winning program that resulted in three appearances in the National Vhampionship.
His record, especially these last five years is outstanding.
The goal each year is to compete for the National Championship, at least that’s what Ara said.
it may be true that Kelly was never going to win a NC at ND, but that may be true of any and every coach due to structural impediments beyond Kelly’s control.
So, there are two factors in play.
1. The inherent structural impediment
2. Coach Kelly’s perceived limitations.
I’ll let you and others debate and assign the respective percentages, but in my opinion, # 1 Is more than 50 %
Lou Holtz clearly defined the ND fan base’s unreasonable levels of expectations.
We all want ND to win a NC, but I think that you have to be realistic 3nough to acknowledge that we’re not competing on a level playing field.
In addition, given the landscape, like 4-4-3, I believe that the odds against us are increasing and that the college game, in general, is declining.
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it !
Read the post Pat. Says nothing about lowering academic standards. It talks about NIL and whether Notre Dame is going to play in the same arena as those other schools. Money talks. ND only has a certain amount of players it can offer every year due to its academic requirements. Other schools may be in a better position financially (via boosters like Texas A&M) to lure those student-athletes away from Notre Dame. M y question is whether ND is going to swim with the sharks and throw that kind of money around in NIL arrangements or not. I don't know. I asked the board if anyone has any insight about that since I've read that Father Jenkins made comments that didn't necessarily support that position. ND certainly has the alums who could do it, but is this the road the university wants to go down? That is all I'm asking. I was trying to build on the post put forth by 4-4-3 who aptly stated words to the effect of this (meaning CFB) becoming a cartel.
Just to be clear, when I used the word cartel, I was referring to the country’s UNIVERSITY/EDUCATION SYSTEM ITSELF. Given its EXORBITANT TUITIONS and PREDATRY TUITION DEBT FINANCE STRUCTURE which has turned thousands of young people into ASPIRING DEBT SLAVES even before they’ve acquired credit card, auto and mortgage debt.
Still, your misreading of my comment is WELL TAKEN as athletic revenues are part of the same VORACIOUS CASH FLOW MACHINE that allows many universities to fund the EVER MORE FABULOUS AMENITIES that allow them to attract the kind of BENIGHTED FOOLS willing to pay RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS for a private or out-of-state public education.
As for NIL, I’m not sure what was INTENDED but here’s the deal at A&M:
A recruit is targeted for a specific recruiting class.
A “point donor” then heads the recruiting effort.
The “point donor” gathers other donors around him.
Those donors create an LLC.
The LLC sponsors the targeted recruit and pays out deals for NIL if/when he enrolls.
That recruit, upon arrival on campus, receives money from the LLC.
In turn, the recruit promotes the LLC and its “cause,” whether that be a charity or a business.
More:
The University of Texas reportedly weaponized NIL to land No. 1 overall quarterback recruit Quinn Ewers. Texas boosters are also paying every offensive lineman on scholarship $50,000 through NIL— a well-known fact that could entice offensive line recruits to commit to the Longhorns. SMU boosters and notable alumni also announced a huge amount of money for NIL.
Does this sound like ND’s cup of tea?
UH, NOT THE ND I’M AWARE OF.
Did Kelly see both the NIL and TRANSFER PORTAL implications?
HOW COULD HE NOT HAVE?
I hope you keep posting on this topic as I myself intend to. It’s a total game changer if it isn’t somehow REGULATIED, something many wealthy southern states IN PARTICULAR are likely to fight. NIL is right up their alley as it allows them to LEGALLY pay recruits. For many, that’s like TAKING BREATH.
Again, is that ND’s game?
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While NIL has been weaponized via alumni, for the best HS players in the country, no matter how lucrative the NIL deal is, they aren’t getting into ND if they can’t meet the admissions standards.
so once again, we’re dealing with a narrower subset of recruits
Yes, but it could even be worse.
Not only will the ND pool remain restricted, but it's LIKELY TO BE EATEN INTO FURTHER in that some who might come to ND will go somewhere else if ND doesn't do alumni-driven LLC NIL deals of the type A&M has done, or if better NIL deals are available elsewhere.
This is now a pure PAY TO PLAY TEMPLATE for any recruits who qualify and WISH TO AVAIL THEMSELVES OF IT. So will ND play? And if so, to what extent?
They were an extremely well coached team. Fickell did a lot with little. The difference between a Kelly and a Fickell.
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