Yeah the majority of ND fans (not all) want to see him fail. And there's nothing wrong with that at all
BK post pressure….
- Thread starter ftnfan62
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OK, 4-4-3, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I always enjoy reading your stuff, even if there may be others here who don't.
As for the denigration of Kelly, apart from his perceived character issues, I think part of it, and maybe even much of it, stems from the way he left ND. Rightfully or not, I think how he departed left a bad taste in the mouths of many ND fans. Leaving was one thing, but leaving in the way he did was quite another. That said, I'm not sure there is any easy way to tell your employer you would rather work somewhere else. And some bosses are beloved, while others are not. Maybe those falling in the latter category are tolerated by the organization and its employees while they are getting the job done, but there is no love lost when they exit for greener pastures. I wouldn't characterize the discussion here about BK as a "hate-fest," as you have, but there is no denying that Brian Kelly seems to be a guy who elicits strong emotions from people. The polar opposite, I suppose, from Dan Devine. Maybe that's just the way it is, and always will be.
As for your take on Freeman, I didn't mean to suggest or imply that you have ever stated any personal animus toward him. I recall you and others expressed doubts as to whether he was the right man for the job when Kelly left, but you made clear your reasons for that position, and none of it was personal.
Kelly assuredly did tell his employer just not the fans. Do you remember savvy Jack's reaction to the 'news?' He was not surprised at all.
I personally do not feel the emotional attachment to a professional hired to do a job. Notre Dame did not marry Brian Kelly. To be successful you make a strategic choice about what leader best serves your interests.
Agreed, I didn't mean to suggest that Kelly sandbagged Swarbrick with his decision. What Kelly told Swarbrick, and when he told him, is between the two of them. I have no idea what was said between them. Swarbrick has not publicly criticized the decision, nor how he was informed of it by BK. As you note, Swarbrick publicly stated he was not surprised by Kelly's decision. However, I have heard various rumors--of which I admittedly have no first hand knowledge--that some of the players weren't happy with how they found out about Kelly's decision, and the timing of it. In defense of Kelly, I believe he did stand before the team (the next day, maybe?) and tell them in person why he was leaving to take the LSU job. Certainly BK handled the decision in a more honorable fashion than when Bobby Petrino announced he was quitting as HC of the Atlanta Falcons by leaving a four-sentence laminated letter in the player's lockerroom. That was pretty gutless.
And in the final analysis Kelly took an opportunity he felt was best for himself and his family. That's ok, and I personally have no problem with what he did. In fact, I am happy with how things have worked out. I was merely trying to offer an explanation for some of the vitriol that seems to be thrown Kelly's way. I don't feel that way myself, but clearly others do.
Prick is a strong term. It’s defined as “a contemptible or despicable person.” Is that your definition of Brian Kelly?
The term is also routinely used to demonize a person’s character in a complete and categorical way. Is that what you wish to convey in calling Kelly a prick?
Let’s assume that that’s the case and that you view Kelly as contemptible and/or despicable and on that basis look at the reasons you’ve cited to make your point.
And if that’s NOT what you meant, you can clarify that later.
The Interview
Football is a business and as in all businesses, interviews often take place at awkward times. But when money or opportunity calls, few can be so SIMON PURE as to simply hang up the phone.
What ACTUAL HARM that you are directly aware of resulted from Kelly’s taking the interview?
After all, Kelly went on to coach ND – and quite successfully – for another 9 years. And if he had left, you – who are so delighted that he’s gone – would then have been rid of him NINE YEARS SOONER.
Rather than call this episode contemptible, I view it – in terms of its ultimate zero negative impact on ND -- as tantamount to a NON-EVENT.
Assuming, of course, that had Kelly left, ND’s next coach or coaches wouldn’t have gone on to win more than the 85 additional games Kelly did in the same time span.
Blowing Smoke
I’ve heard this story, but what’s its source? How many degrees of separation from its FIRST TELLING to its appearance in YOUR POST? Do you know?
And what exactly is the allegation? That Kelly was hiding his intentions or even a done deal? Was he not still technically working for ND? If so, what was he supposed to do – tell the kid's parents he was moving on? Was it still not his job to recruit the kid for ND?
Seems to me he was in an inherently conflicted situation where one way or another, there'd be COLLATERAL DAMAGE.
But then, I don’t know all of the facts, so I’ll stop there. But then, do you? And if so, again, what’s your first-hand source? Your evidence as opposed to hearsay.
Berating Crist
Were you around the many times both Nick Saban and Lou Holtz threw sideline tantrums and got up in players’ faces? How about Woody Hayes or Lombardi? Or Billy Martin?
Have you ever read about Bear Bryant’s preseason workouts at Texas A&M? And how about Holtz grabbing a player by his face mask and dragging him off the field in a game in which ND had already laid over 40 points on an elite MSU defense? There's film on it -- MSU/ND 91 Highlights. It comes right at the end. And actually, I think Holtz did it more than once.
All of those guys WON TITLES, but does that absolve them of being pricks? Because according to your definition as it relates to Kelly, that’s what they were. And as such, why haven’t they been castigated the way Kelly is. And NONE of them ever has been.
But then, this is sports. Athletic combat. Some guys have short fuses, and they blow. Is it contemptible behavior? Not in my book. After all, what is football, REALLY, if not a sanctioned, ruled-based domain in which the point is to KNOCK THE SNOT OUT OF SOMEBODY.
And then if you win -- which all of those guys did -- ALL IS FORGIVEN.
Talking Down ND.
Taking digs at institutions -- even ones you work for -- and talking behind peoples’ backs are two of life’s MOST ENDURING -- or is it ENDEARING? -- PASTIMES, and EVERYONE DOES IT. Yet, I fail to see how this makes us all pricks.
Not to minimize your sense of offense at this, but I think that with this one we’re talking no more than foot faults or at most peccadillos.
My Take
I never saw Brian Kelly as either an easy or natural fit at ND and always felt that he’d taken the job with one eye on the door from the GET-GO. He either suspected or flatout knew – and in my opinion, rightly so – that ND would never give him the degree of autonomy that the best coaches of the best programs routinely get.
And yet, despite that, he was both COMPETENT ENOUGH and PROFESSIONAL ENOUGH to remain at ND for 12 years, winning 113 games, going 12-0 twice in the regular season, making the playoffs twice, and playing once for the NC.
Unfortunately, he IRREDEEMABLY ALIENATED ND FANS TWICE. First, despite coming close, he never won that NC and then at the point where his teams were progressing ever more steadily towards NC-caliber, HE QUIT.
Pardon my bluntness here, but as I see it, those disappointed by Kelly MOVED SEAMLESSLY from CRY-BABYING to SOUR GRAPES.
Had he won an NC and/or not quit ND when he did, WE WOULDN’T BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION, all of his ALLEDGED characterological deficiencies notwithstanding. Because, under those circumstances, ND fans, despite any pious protestations to the contrary, wouldn’t have cared a whit.
NOT AT ALL. And with Kelly completely ABSOLVED.
But since none of that happened and he left, people seem to want to keep PUNISHING the guy for whatever degree of satisfaction that affords them. And I suspect it will continue until ND supporters have either something BETTER TO GRIPE ABOUT or a new WHIPPING BOY emerges.
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The definition of a prick is wide and varied. A more moderate view is what I have."....The term "prick" is a vulgar slang term for a man who is contemptible or spiteful, and often has some authority." Had I chosen another label which I believe applies, such as A-Hole....I am afraid we would be having an anatomy discussion. There are two things on which we can disagree: Whether Kelly is a prick...and by what degree he is one. I don't place Kelly in the extreme negative category. He would be a moderate prick, in my view. I gave specific examples of why I believe he is a prick. So my definition of the term is relative to those few specific examples.
By Meg Wochnick, Columbian staff writer
Published: December 3, 2021, 4:39pm
"At no point during the visit did Kelly hint or suggest he’d be leaving Notre Dame. Nor were the Merriweathers aware of any rumors swirling; family members weren’t on their cell phones while entertaining the coaches.
But during the visit, according to Dom Merriweather, Kelly stepped out for a 15-minute phone call. Soon after he returned, the coaches and family members sat down for a home-cooked meal featuring deviled eggs, barbecued shrimp and brisket burnt ends. The visit continued for another 90 minutes." Three servings to go with that 95 mil? Only a prick would do that.
You are truly obsessed. You even have the stupid dinner menu memorized. That is actually a graceful way to handle a situation like that. And you obviously understand that much. Or maybe you don't, maybe that much subtlety is beyond the scope of your conceptual powers. And so rather than taking the call, and then strolling in announcing that he just finalized his LSU deal and so he's out the door, see ya bitches! That's what a prick would do.... Instead he discreetly finishes the visit, represents well for ND and does his duty as a recruiter before taking his leave and of course making his public announcement at the next available opportunity.
But the important thing is YOU ALREADY TOTALLY HATED BK YEARS BEFORE THIS HAPPENED. This is just a lame, transparent excuse to justify your very established hatred for the guy that already preexisted his departure - which was handled perfectly fine - and pathetically try to make it out like he's the bad guy for this one incident. Because he quietly finished a previously long planned home visit, where presumably he gave the same recruiting pitch any coach would, extolling the virtues of ND which would still be there with or without him, and if the kid wants to change his mind when the news breaks he's free to do so. The worst you could say is that the whole episode was awkward, even though it really wasn't, and it was more appropriate that he finish the visit as planned, in a conventional manner, rather than suddenly sharing with this HS kid's family in their living room that he was now taking the LSU job, probably even before he told his own family. Nobody would do that. He handled it in exactly the way anyone else would or should have handled it.
They left out : after the call he suddenly returned with a Cajun accent !
Sounds like you're moderating which to me makes sense.
In other news, given today's outcome, it looks like at least some ND fans have found their NEW WHIPPING BOY. At least for the moment.
But then, I've always argued that it isn't the individuals who are primarily to blame at ND -- especially a guy who wins 113 games there and is then treated like a PARIAH for his efforts -- it's THE BOX CANYON that ND has so neatly sealed itself off in.
Old Sisyphus still has a better chance of rolling his rock up that hill than ND has of regaining football supremacy. And that's what I suspect Brian Kelly LIKELY KNEW all along. But stubborn egoist he is, HE GAVE IT A TRY. THAT'S what I appreciated in the guy.
How ironic that another institution REWARDED him for those efforts.
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Savvy covered this and pretty much nailed it.
You don't BLOW UP an in-home visit or dinner of any kind just because you have a grenade in your pocket, especially if by NOT setting it off you're DOING NO HARM.
It was an unfortunately AWKWARD SITUATION to which it sounds like you're assigning FIRST-DEGREE MALICE.
And it's the kind of STRAWMAN ALLEGATION the press feeds on.
Nope. Case dismissed.
No. Kelly ate 3 servings of home cooked hospitatility....and stayed another 90 minutes, while entirely disenginuous. Merriweather's father spoke to that directly....calling it "bullshit". And that's what it was. You might buy into the excuses for Kelly's false face.....I don't....and won't. Recruiting games does not excuse dishonesty. On the other hand....Kelly did us a favor...he confirmed that he belonged elsewhere. If there is a STRAWMAN....He looks like Brian Kelly.
Sounds like you're VENDETTA-MINDED. Somehow, the man has deeply offended you.
There's really a more NUANCED VERSION of this situation and of Kelly in general. But far be it from me to try to talk you down from your RANCOR. You apparently want to hold on to the BAD FEELING.
All I can say is, if it makes you happy, CLUTCH IT FOR ALL THAT IT'S WORTH to you.
4-4-3.....your posts have usually been above board. But now we have three options: Right, wrong and nuanced? You ride that horse if you want to.
You can be RIGHT and NUANCED at the same time.
And I'll ride that horse to CLARITY any time.
I don't know what was in Kelly's head during that visit and neither do you. Did you ever consider the possiblity he understood the ACUTE SITUATIONAL AWARKDESS in which he found himself and simply decided that the best thing to do was to let a SLEEPING DOG LIE and finish out the evening without causing everyone else to freak out?
Without any foundation, you're accusing him of MALICIOUS INTENT when in fact he may merely have been playing his hand in the way he thought most appropriate.
I've talked with a number of people on this. They, like me, would have handled it EXACTLY THE SAME as Kelly did. And none of them, including MY WIFE, whom I also asked, would I consider inherently UNETHICAL or a "PRICK."
Again, I DON'T KNOW what Kelly was thinking and NEITHER DO YOU.
So, why not give him the benefit of the doubt?
Well, it must be your ANIMUS against him, in which case, no need for nuance -- JUST BLACK AND WHITE it, and paint Kelly BLACK.
But, hey, show me some truly UNETHICAL thing Kelly's done, and I will CONDEMN HIM IN A HEARTBEAT. But this nonsense? It's a NOTHING-BURGER.
That is effin' hilarious. I don't remember all the details of that fateful evening but apparently you do. First it was the meal itself, and now the fact that he apparently he had three servings, which is somehow salt in the wound to you. Really it's merely more ammunition for your truly pathetic case against BK the scumbag, when the truth is you're simply a pathological hater who totally hated and denigrated and reviled him for years and years before this exceedingly minor and unavoidable incident that you now transparently use as the phony basis and justification for your seething animosity.
Personally, I don't give a shit what this kid's dad thinks. Welcome to the real world, pops. Maybe you have a boring and serene 9 to 5 existence where everything is safe and on schedule. But BK flaps wings with the big boys, and sometimes in life you have to improvise. Somehow I'm guessing the sentiment wouldn't have been much different, nor would BK have gotten any more credit had he just busted out the news right then and there instead of asking for another plate of ribs. He was trying to spare you. But instead you just act all befuddled and indignant. And sure enough your kid is a bust and transfers out after two years of underachieving. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree....
And that's your laughable stick you try and beat BK with. That sorry-ass little anecdote which if anything makes BK look like the bigger man, and the magnanimous one.
From my perch, your MONEY SHOT:
"But BK flaps wings with the big boys, and sometimes in life you have to improvise."
From my perch, BKs wings flutter when playing against the big boys.
You know who else ignored a lot in South Bend, Kelly, including winning anything meaningful. Tell us more about the kind of players BK recruited at ND. I can help? Cierre Wood, Devontae Neal, Prince Shembo, Max Redfield, Tommy Rees, Will Mahone.
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