Phil was ranked higher, and recruited by more schooles then all those you listed. I don't believe it's because PJ sucks like some believe. My opinion is he was poorly developed. I think he will be successful elsewhere.
Phil Jurkovec Transferring
- Thread starter IrishInOntario
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you may be right..... seems like a good kid, i hope he does well. I don't think he will be that good though.
I thought Golson and Wimbush would be better at their new schools, they were not, golson was descent. Zaire was bad.
I think given the right opportunity he is definitely nfl material. There is a reason Ohio state, Alabama and clemson all wanted him.
that's hindsight now. they had their chance and made their choice as did Fields.
we shall see if any of them still do. lots of highly regarded guys by everyone don't pan out. no absolutes for certain. Hopefully PJ is not one of those.
you're banking on high school rankings ? yikes that doesn't guarantee he'll perform better.
No hs rankings is not the end all be all. But don't discount them either. We go round and round on these boards about stars by the names and their importance. But you cannot deny that all the elite teams are littered with high ranked hs players. Sure you can find a diamond in the rough no one saw, but you won't make a living on it.
agree but once they are on campus the stars are moot. some pan out some don't. assuming player A will be the better college than player B because of them is presumptuous at best.
IIO -- well said. You know I'm a Kelly fan but I always wondered (and maybe this is a college football question) why offenses can't run packages for guys like Phil and Wimbush? (See Urban at Florida.)
I have often wondered (and I'm a b-ball guy so don't laugh) -- why not develop a second offense. New line, new qb -- to run, for example a kind of Navy option -- stick 'em in during the second quarter to confuse and beat down the defenses? Run a few and then with guys like Phil of Wimbush, toss one deep when the other team goes to sleep... If it works, keep doing it. If they figure it out, bring in the first team.
Shame to lose such a good athlete. Whereas Kelly's defenses (esp. under Lea) are trending towards elite -- our offense is still second tier and gets exposed vs. the elite teams.
Remember in 2022 we play BOTH Clemson and OSU!
@IrishInOntario "It's not about designing a couple plays. Did you see how Justin Fields looked last year at Georgia?" I could not find this post so I had to piggy back off of another poster.
This is one of the better post on this thread and wanted to make sure that this point was highlighted.
I for one love the concepts that Kelly and Long tried to implement into this offensive game plane, especially the route tree that they were playing off. A lot of the sideline post routes against cover 3 and even cover 2 with the under routes that complement them to make a defense "pick their poison" have been open Book just does not chose the right receiver. For example, We had Claypool lined up at Z and Kmet at the Y. Claypool runs a 10 to 15 yard post toward the middle of the defense while Kmet ran a post toward the sideline. Even if the defense is not in man the read there is going to be a 1,2,3 right out of the break. Normally this 2 route concept forces a defense to either play middle and cover the post leaving the side post open to an over the top in a cover 2 or 3 look or man to man against the OLB which is a good mismatch. If you look at route concepts like this throughout the year Book has not taken advantage of these reads. Book will normally check down to his X reciever who is Finke running a drag route 3 to 5 yards from the LOS which is then normally met with a hit by the MLB or broken up pass, just based on what I have seen. If Finke had more speed to beat the MLB the play could be a little more successful but the fact still remains that he is missing that initial read. Another example is when The Y receiver is lined up with the Z, lets say it is on the right side of the field and lets say it is short side in this scenario. The Y runs a post middle of the field with the Z running a corner route with 3 breaks normally 10 yards at the end of the break (we have seen this exact play before). The read is still a 1,2,3 and is a pick em for the defense which forces a choice by either a nickle back or OLB to chose middle or corner, off that choice that when he has to throw and he does not. You will normally have the H which is the TE run a drag to play side to force the corner to honor the under route which again creates space over the top for the corner route, which at that point the safety decided if he is responsible for the corner route or the post that is coming up the middle of the field. It all happens fast but it is easy to pick up when you watch for it game in and game out. Obviously, it is not a sure fire thing but that is how these route concepts are suppose to work and it you do not read the defense then you are basically just lost back there having to tuck and run or resort to hitting the under route every time.
So, to your point these concepts may be hard to someone like PJ to fully pick up and execute. I will not make assumptions because I never saw practice over the course of his tenure. I do know that when he was in the game the offensive scheme changed. So here is the question, do you taylor your offense to fit one guy, or do you find the right guy for your offense? Chicken and egg debate really, but you get my premise here. I feel like we could have done a better job implementing more RPO stuff into our scheme but again I am not in the room.
This is one of the better post on this thread and wanted to make sure that this point was highlighted.
I for one love the concepts that Kelly and Long tried to implement into this offensive game plane, especially the route tree that they were playing off. A lot of the sideline post routes against cover 3 and even cover 2 with the under routes that complement them to make a defense "pick their poison" have been open Book just does not chose the right receiver. For example, We had Claypool lined up at Z and Kmet at the Y. Claypool runs a 10 to 15 yard post toward the middle of the defense while Kmet ran a post toward the sideline. Even if the defense is not in man the read there is going to be a 1,2,3 right out of the break. Normally this 2 route concept forces a defense to either play middle and cover the post leaving the side post open to an over the top in a cover 2 or 3 look or man to man against the OLB which is a good mismatch. If you look at route concepts like this throughout the year Book has not taken advantage of these reads. Book will normally check down to his X reciever who is Finke running a drag route 3 to 5 yards from the LOS which is then normally met with a hit by the MLB or broken up pass, just based on what I have seen. If Finke had more speed to beat the MLB the play could be a little more successful but the fact still remains that he is missing that initial read. Another example is when The Y receiver is lined up with the Z, lets say it is on the right side of the field and lets say it is short side in this scenario. The Y runs a post middle of the field with the Z running a corner route with 3 breaks normally 10 yards at the end of the break (we have seen this exact play before). The read is still a 1,2,3 and is a pick em for the defense which forces a choice by either a nickle back or OLB to chose middle or corner, off that choice that when he has to throw and he does not. You will normally have the H which is the TE run a drag to play side to force the corner to honor the under route which again creates space over the top for the corner route, which at that point the safety decided if he is responsible for the corner route or the post that is coming up the middle of the field. It all happens fast but it is easy to pick up when you watch for it game in and game out. Obviously, it is not a sure fire thing but that is how these route concepts are suppose to work and it you do not read the defense then you are basically just lost back there having to tuck and run or resort to hitting the under route every time.
So, to your point these concepts may be hard to someone like PJ to fully pick up and execute. I will not make assumptions because I never saw practice over the course of his tenure. I do know that when he was in the game the offensive scheme changed. So here is the question, do you taylor your offense to fit one guy, or do you find the right guy for your offense? Chicken and egg debate really, but you get my premise here. I feel like we could have done a better job implementing more RPO stuff into our scheme but again I am not in the room.
What a sobering bit of insight towards the future.
We must take measures post haste to secure Kelly's tourniquet for we have witnesses the carnage inflicted upon him undertaking such endeavors.
Give me 100 five stars vs 100 3 stars. I guarantee I'll have a lot more success stories than the team with the three stars. I think the data is empirical. Unless you're USC lol.
who's coaching them ? in all seriousness though too many factors in the mix than to just say well if he has 5 stars he'll end up being the better player. it's not nearly that simple.
Or Tennessee, Michigan, Texas, Florida State, Ole Miss (2013-2015 top) or Florida (after Meyer).
You can have all the talent in the world but if you do not have a stable program and a good coach it really does not matter how talented you are.
The reason for listing the teams above is to provide a counter argument that though all of these teams for-mentioned recruited in the top echelon of college football, they were unable to win. If you look at Alabama, Clemson and Ohio State these teams can bring in the talent and coach. The 2 part equation that the greatest coaches of all time master, ie Saban, Meyer and Dabo.
There are more instances of teams/coaches doing less with more, than coaches doing more with less.
As long as you have an above average staff you'll be up there in the elite status. The numbers don't lie. All the elite teams have lots of star rates hs kids. If Kelly had Ohio State, or Clemson's athletes we would be elite and right up there. However, I don't consider Kelly an elite coach. He's good, but not elite.
A just question indeed!
Regrettably, Kelly has thus far into his tenure fixated primarily upon the physical attributes of his quarterback targets without giving much weight to their potential proficiency at running his offense. This has been observed through his pursuits of prospects such as Malik Zaire, Brandon Wimbush, and now young Phil.
He appeared to have possibly secured the services of a quarterback that possessed both traits in Golson but much to my and likely Golson5's chagrin--positive results did not transpire.
With that said, none too much fault should be assigned to Kelly in that singular matter for it is unrealistic to anticipate 100% success with any one prospect.
That said, had Kelly to date concentrated more of his efforts on evaluating the manner in which each propected played on the field in high school and perhaps did a cursory review of their mental aptitudes he might to have secured a higher success rate in his development of quarterbacks.
Additionally, were he willing to be more flexible with his offensive scheme he may have been able to find success with some of the more physically gifted quarterbacks on the roster, rather than, always needing to default to whichever quarterback showed the least resistance in executing the existing and never changing scheme. A change (no pun intended) that might also be beneficial given a scheme, as observed through events that transpire on the field, for which some of our more lofty adversaries seem to easily contain.
One can see the frustration in it all.
Fair enough and all good examples. I relent to say that yes a good staff is as important as talent. But to say that star status in recruiting doesn't matter is pretty naive also.
how many of those kids can make it to ND ? of those that can how many want to ? many of them are looking for the quickest path to the NFL with the least amount of resistance along the way. ND is not that. some call that an excuse i call it the cold hard reality of the situation. OSU with all those stars you cite got boat raced by lowly Purdue last year. Clemson was a better play call away from losing to North Carolina who doesn't have anywhere near the talent on the roster. that's just two examples of many. you still have to develop players and play the game. these kids aren't finished products in high school.
of course it matters but some act as if it's the be all, end all. far from it.
Agree, but kelly had to hire him, and Lance was wanted more than just at ND.
That was certainly more true of long ago but today...
These kids have their own high school schedule and playoffs to navigate plus the 800 camps sponsored by Nike or a local high school legendary coach QB camp or.....you get the point.
Now more than ever the data on these kids is as accurate as ever. Social media doesn't hide the player from Fargo any longer.
Having said all the above...what he might not be able to overcome is the damage done by development under Brian Kelly. Yes that's a very real thing.
Brian Kelly has been perfect over the last decade........perfect at not having one QB flourish or progress from one year to the next. I don't know how in the hell anyone could ever advise a highly rated HS QB to sign with Brian Kelly. He will NOT help you get to the NFL and in 2020 the NFL is their dream.
Their is no speculation on this whatsoever. Ten years of stunted growth or regression has been cemented.
I feel bad for Phil and honestly any top rated QB that plays under BK.
You can say he did this or that good for the program but the QB position has been not only average but disastrous. His entire damn tenure!!!
Kizer making decent money. That said how many of them had NFL skill sets ? i don't think it would be wrong to say Kizer is the only one of the group during the Kelly tenure. Buchner looks to be the real deal. we shall see.
Of all of the recruits I've seen film of Pyne seems to be the best fit for this game plan? His reads seem even quicker than Buchner's (Pyne played QB all four years, father is a coach)... and he has a very quick release. Arm strength needs improvement -- or is that an 'either you got it or you don't' talent? I was really impressed with his performance in the all-star game - even if the throw to Rice's son was short (nice play by Rice's son there!)
They do, what the hell do you think 2017 was? Remember that year when Kelly saved his job, and we ran the ball so much, and Josh Adams was a brief Heisman contender and we had two top ten NFL drafts picks on the OL? That was a classic case of an offense and coaches tailoring things around their QB's weaknesses.
And it worked! And BK saved his job. And then eventually such an arrangement was deemed to be unsustainable and Ian Book took over. So while coaches in theory are perfectly capable of rearranging their playbook to account for the fact that their QB can't throw for shit, they would probably rather have a QB who can run the actual main offense effectively, and play him instead, as well as consistently favor players who can run the main offense. And there'd be no reason to keep or get someone like BW or PJ on the field at the expense of the regular running of the offense for no other reason than to have them in the lineup, more or less. That's the sort of thinking that might appeal to fans who feel very strongly about elite recruits and having them on the roster and always playing them whenever possible. I don't think too many coaches are going to develop and implement a 'second offense', as you say, just to get some former blue chipper who the fans like to swoon over, on the field, in spite of his inability to win the job with the regular offense. That's just not a thing. Certainly not much of one. Even more so for a system coach like BK.
And that's all Ian Book is. He's not that great, but as far as all the QBs on the roster right now, he's someone who can run the main offense pretty effectively. Definitely better than Wimbush, and presumably better than Jurkovec. For all I know PJ could have ended up the greatest QB ND has ever produced, but since he's transferred we'll never know. Doesn't seem like that's where things were going, based on the smattering of evidence, but who knows when he might have turned the corner. Or if he would have been another Deshone Kizer and just lit it up the moment he had a chance to shine. Oh well...
Fair enough and I agree with you. It takes both. But don't under estimate hs rankings either.
I agree, I believe those were my exact words is stars are not the end all be all.
i don't i just try to keep it in perspective. it's my Mike McNair complex.....
Lol true even though he was injured evey year. But yes I get the point.
My guess today is Clark opens ‘21 as starter and gives way to Pyne by game 4-6 and settles in as back up. Buchner see the history, understands, enters the
t-portal. ND will have also recruited another QB to still have 3 on the roster.
(of course Buchner, will get deemed ‘flawed’ by ND forum fans and it will be reasoned that that’s why he choses to transfer.)
Jerry Seinfeld:
[the conversation from the pilot episode of 'Seinfeld'] See now, to me, that button is in the worst possible spot.
George Costanza:
Really?
Jerry Seinfeld:
Oh yeah. The second button is the key button. It literally makes or breaks the shirt. Look at it, it's too high, it's in no-man's land.
George Costanza:
Haven't we had this conversation before?
t-portal. ND will have also recruited another QB to still have 3 on the roster.
(of course Buchner, will get deemed ‘flawed’ by ND forum fans and it will be reasoned that that’s why he choses to transfer.)
Jerry Seinfeld:
[the conversation from the pilot episode of 'Seinfeld'] See now, to me, that button is in the worst possible spot.
George Costanza:
Really?
Jerry Seinfeld:
Oh yeah. The second button is the key button. It literally makes or breaks the shirt. Look at it, it's too high, it's in no-man's land.
George Costanza:
Haven't we had this conversation before?
Define NFL skill set...
A big arm? That's at the top of all their lists. Intangibles? That would certainly a close second.
With the exception of Book and Rees BK has had NFL arms. Zaire had an NFL arm. Wimbush too. Even though Golson was a smurf he had a big arm.
That's the good.
The bad is the development of their game after the factor of arm. It's pathetic. No NFL team has the time needed to waste several years developing a QB who not only is green but has picked up terrible habits by Brian Kelly.
No NFL team can afford to waste 4 years developimg what the college team should have done because there is also an NFL learning curve after that. So now you're talking 6 or 7 years before they are truly ready. Not going to happen in the NFL. While you can't win over night in the NFL you need the reward sooner than 6 years.
that's why I said Oline. No one was going to outrun the pass rush every play on that UF team that Zaire joined.
That word has changed since I played.
i think Zaire could have been really good but he was never the same after the injury. did very little at Florida also. interesting how none of the three you mentioned accomplished much of anything after transferring. skill set includes many things. the fact that none of those three did much anywhere is a strong indicator they didn't possess the requisite NFL skill set. Kellys job is not to develop NFL caliber QB'S. his job is to win games. just like Holtz. Lou had the unanimous #1 overall recruit in Powlus. How did he develop as a NFL ready QB ? offensive schemes are a huge part of it. Feel free to blame Kelly for everything including the quality of the toilet paper at the stadium.
Malik’s talent was leadership, not necessarily possessing real obvious physical gifts for the position.
Yes, a pity that young Phil or Brandon were even presences on campus given their inability to run the offensive scheme.
One does have to ponder how their presence at the university even came about with such a glaring in ability to run the offensive scheme.
That might also lead one to ponder about the coaching staff's ability to appropriately target and recruit quarterbacks that can effectively excute their scheme.
I think we can all conclude based upon events that have transpired on the field over the past decade that Kelly and his staff have a glaring deficiency in either appropriately identifying quarterbacks to execute their offense both mentally and physically or develop the mental or physical deficiencies of the quarterbacks they mis-evaluated during the recruiting process.
Regrettably, whether for which case it may be, the deficiencies continue to result in lackluster production at the position which at the end of the day falls squarely and chiefly under the responsibility of your fair and virtuous maiden.
Point blank, you can't stand on one side of the aisle here because it takes combination of both to be great.
Time will tell, he's certainly talented and honestly size is relevant as a general statement but does not pertain to every single prospect.
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