Where are ALL the Book and Kelly haters???

[NDinNJ]

I understand what you are saying.

However, is it coaching or is it players?

The Notre Dame academic standard is a higher standard than what LSU, Bama and Clemson have.

ND does not get the same level athlete that those schools get.

I believe Kelly has gotten everything he can out of the players he has recruited and coached at ND.

I do not believe ANY coach in the country could do a better job at Notre Dame.

Here we go with the excuses, academics standards. Other coaches have won at ND with those same standards.
Also if you look at Clemson up to the point of their first natty a few years ago, their composite rankings were in the 10-15 range, very similar to ND’s rankings during that same period, yet they were able to get over that hump and get the quality wins, and win. After that the flood gates opened up for them with recruiting.
BK’s biggest weakness is his lack of ability to develop a QB. The position has been a disaster for most of his tenure, which anyone with any football sense can see is what’s prevented the program from getting to that next level.

 

[Golson5]

Here we go with the excuses, academics standards. Other coaches have won at ND with those same standards.
Also if you look at Clemson up to the point of their first natty a few years ago, their composite rankings were in the 10-15 range, very similar to ND’s rankings during that same period, yet they were able to get over that hump and get the quality wins, and win. After that the flood gates opened up for them with recruiting.
BK’s biggest weakness is his lack of ability to develop a QB. The position has been a disaster for most of his tenure, which anyone with any football sense can see is what’s prevented the program from getting to that next level.

His biggest weakness is evaluating the QB position. Hopefully that has changed with Buchner. We'll see

 

[d1042]

no-one ‘hates’ Book

 

[Zorich 88]

Here we go with the excuses, academics standards. Other coaches have won at ND with those same standards.
Also if you look at Clemson up to the point of their first natty a few years ago, their composite rankings were in the 10-15 range, very similar to ND’s rankings during that same period, yet they were able to get over that hump and get the quality wins, and win. After that the flood gates opened up for them with recruiting.
BK’s biggest weakness is his lack of ability to develop a QB. The position has been a disaster for most of his tenure, which anyone with any football sense can see is what’s prevented the program from getting to that next level.

First of all, are you comparing Clemson academics to Notre Dame academics?

Second, all this talk about Kelly not developing QBs is ridiculous.

Name one current top 5 program where the coach developed a 3 star or less QB!

Top programs have top rated QBs. The coaches did not develop them.

Riley has had too QBs from day one at Oklahoma. He did not develop any of them.

 

[Pennick4]

His arm talent is average. He can hit a deep ball if he gets his feet right and steps into it, but he is incapable of hitting anything past 25 yards on the reg under less than ideal situations.

You must be watching another Ian Book...

 

[Kcndmis97]

First of all, are you comparing Clemson academics to Notre Dame academics?

Second, all this talk about Kelly not developing QBs is ridiculous.

Name one current top 5 program where the coach developed a 3 star or less QB!

Top programs have top rated QBs. The coaches did not develop them.

Riley has had too QBs from day one at Oklahoma. He did not develop any of them.

Have to disagree. You need to develop all QBs, just not at the same rate. D Crist was a 5-star, Wimbush and Phil were top 100 overall players. None of them will live up to the hype, at least at ND. Also, yes the top programs have top rated QBs....whose fault is that? Maybe BK and staff need to evaluate differently and push harder for a 5-star QB. Not all 5-stars pan out, J Eason and Fromm are not the same as Lawrence and Fields, yet all were 5-stars. That’s where development comes in.

 

[Golson5]

You must be watching another Ian Book...

Ian Books arm talent is average, closer to below average than above.

Thats not even debatable

 

[Bodizephax]

Ian Books arm talent is average, closer to below average than above.

Thats not even debatable

False. Fake news, Ian Book has above average arm strength. He overthrows on the long ball. He just needs a little better accuracy.

 

[Golson5]

False. Fake news, Ian Book has above average arm strength. He overthrows on the long ball. He just needs a little better accuracy.

Sorry friend, that's totally inaccurate and wrong

 

[Pennick4]

Ian Books arm talent is average, closer to below average than above.

Thats not even debatable

Try again.

 

[Zorich 88]

Have to disagree. You need to develop all QBs, just not at the same rate. D Crist was a 5-star, Wimbush and Phil were top 100 overall players. None of them will live up to the hype, at least at ND. Also, yes the top programs have top rated QBs....whose fault is that? Maybe BK and staff need to evaluate differently and push harder for a 5-star QB. Not all 5-stars pan out, J Eason and Fromm are not the same as Lawrence and Fields, yet all were 5-stars. That’s where development comes in.

I understand what you are saying. However, to say one of the biggest knocks on Kelly is he does not develop QBs is simply not true. College coaches are not turning 3 star QBs into superstar QBs. That’s not how it works.

Look at Mahomes, are you saying Texas AM developed him into a NFL superstar?

 

[Golson5]

Try again.

Its not even a debate. He has an average arm

 

[Kcndmis97]

I understand what you are saying. However, to say one of the biggest knocks on Kelly is he does not develop QBs is simply not true. College coaches are not turning 3 star QBs into superstar QBs. That’s not how it works.

Look at Mahomes, are you saying Texas AM developed him into a NFL superstar?

They developed Mahomes enough to get drafted in the first round so yes I would say they developed him plenty. Same with Justin Herbert, 3-star turned into first round pick. BK oddly has had more success developing 3-star QBs (Rees and Book) than high 4-star QBs (Wimbush and Phil). The truth is probably that BK can develop QBs but he is bad at evaluating them at the HS level and recruiting the wrong QBs. The problem with developing 3-star QBs like Rees and Book is that they have a ceiling. At least if you are going to land a 3-star QB, land one like Herbert who has massive upside with his size and arm strength.

 

[Pennick4]

Its not even a debate. He has an average arm

Try again...

 

[NIN Irish]

Try again...

Pennick
Would you compare Book's arm to Jamarcus Russell or maybe Aaron Rodgers?

 

[Zorich 88]

They developed Mahomes enough to get drafted in the first round so yes I would say they developed him plenty. Same with Justin Herbert, 3-star turned into first round pick. BK oddly has had more success developing 3-star QBs (Rees and Book) than high 4-star QBs (Wimbush and Phil). The truth is probably that BK can develop QBs but he is bad at evaluating them at the HS level and recruiting the wrong QBs. The problem with developing 3-star QBs like Rees and Book is that they have a ceiling. At least if you are going to land a 3-star QB, land one like Herbert who has massive upside with his size and arm strength.

Herbert has what no one can develop, size. 6’6 230.
The Ducks did not develop him.

Texas A&M did not develop Mahomes.

Mahomes was always a gun slinger. Their respective schools did not develop these guys. Outside of these two players, what other QBs did these schools develop?

Now, did these coaching staffs impart some great tools? Yes, of course they did.

Are they who they are today because of their respective college coaches? Nope

 

[Kcndmis97]

Herbert has what no one can develop, size. 6’6 230.
The Ducks did not develop him.

Texas A&M did not develop Mahomes.

Mahomes was always a gun slinger. Their respective schools did not develop these guys. Outside of these two players, what other QBs did these schools develop?

Now, did these coaching staffs impart some great tools? Yes, of course they did.

Are they who they are today because of their respective college coaches? Nope

Sorry, have to disagree because if all it takes is being tall and having a big arm then D Crist would have been a star at ND. J Eason would have been a star at UGA. Vince Young would have been a star in the NFL. You need to be able to be accurate throwing, have good footwork and most importantly, recognize coverages and make fast decisions. That’s where the coaching and development comes in.

Yes, Herbert has elite physical gifts but you have to then develop his accuracy and the mental part. Wimbush wasn’t tall but his arm was super strong....however, he was highly inaccurate and inconsistent. You need more than a big arm. If it is true that these college coaches didn’t develop these QBs and they are good because of their god given abilities, then why is BK recruiting guys like Book and Rees who doesn’t have that stature? Like I said before, I don’t think BK‘s problem is a lack of QB development, it is evaluation and recruiting.

 

[Zorich 88]

Colleges are “systems” not a place QBs go to develop.

Sorry, have to disagree because if all it takes is being tall and having a big arm then D Crist would have been a star at ND. J Eason would have been a star at UGA. Vince Young would have been a star in the NFL. You need to be able to be accurate throwing, have good footwork and most importantly, recognize coverages and make fast decisions. That’s where the coaching and development comes in.

Yes, Herbert has elite physical gifts but you have to then develop his accuracy and the mental part. Wimbush wasn’t tall but his arm was super strong....however, he was highly inaccurate and inconsistent. You need more than a big arm. If it is true that these college coaches didn’t develop these QBs and they are good because of their god given abilities, then why is BK recruiting guys like Book and Rees who doesn’t have that stature? Like I said before, I don’t think BK‘s problem is a lack of QB development, it is evaluation and recruiting.

you have a lot of inaccuracies in this post.

Starting with Crist. He could have been a special ND QB. However, remember all the injuries?

College coaches do not have the time to develop QB accuracies. That is done during the off-season with QB training coming from an outside QB coach.

College coaches can sharpen skills. However, they do not have the time to develop skills. That is on the QB to get that extra training.

College coaches coach playbook and system.

Also, Kelly did not recruit Tommy. Charlie recruited Tommy.

Top QB recruits look for systems. They look for systems that fit them. Elite QBs are not drawn to Notre Dame. It’s not an open offense and ND does not have a Championship since 1988.

 

[d1042]

“Hater”

threads are the worst kind of threads.

 

[Kcndmis97]

Colleges are “systems” not a place QBs go to develop.

you have a lot of inaccuracies in this post.

Starting with Crist. He could have been a special ND QB. However, remember all the injuries?

College coaches do not have the time to develop QB accuracies. That is done during the off-season with QB training coming from an outside QB coach.

College coaches can sharpen skills. However, they do not have the time to develop skills. That is on the QB to get that extra training.

College coaches coach playbook and system.

Also, Kelly did not recruit Tommy. Charlie recruited Tommy.

Top QB recruits look for systems. They look for systems that fit them. Elite QBs are not drawn to Notre Dame. It’s not an open offense and ND does not have a Championship since 1988.

Injuries are not the reason Crist was a bust. He had some injuries but he was not that great before the injuries. He was replaced in the 2nd half of the USF game in 2011 because he was so ineffective....against USF. By all accounts Crist was an elite recruit but he busted in college, same with J Eason and other 5-star QBs. Yes, it’s all about a good fit into the system. Coaches don’t have time during the season to develop accuracy and reading coverages, they do that in the Spring and Fall camps. I seriously doubt they spend the majority of the time in the Spring coaching the playbook. Spring is about that development and summer too....not from coaches but from GAs and other outside training. Regardless, the main theme is that ND has had quite a few top QB recruits in the BK era, maybe not the 5-stars but the next level down. Yes, we need to win more on the field to attract the Uber QB recruits but to do that, we need to develop the higher ceiling kids that we do get, like Wimbush, Kizer, Zaire, Phil, etc. It’s just not a good look when your most successful QBs have been Rees and Book, not many 5-star QBs will come knocking when that’s the case.

 

[Kcndmis97]

Colleges are “systems” not a place QBs go to develop.

you have a lot of inaccuracies in this post.

Starting with Crist. He could have been a special ND QB. However, remember all the injuries?

College coaches do not have the time to develop QB accuracies. That is done during the off-season with QB training coming from an outside QB coach.

College coaches can sharpen skills. However, they do not have the time to develop skills. That is on the QB to get that extra training.

College coaches coach playbook and system.

Also, Kelly did not recruit Tommy. Charlie recruited Tommy.

Top QB recruits look for systems. They look for systems that fit them. Elite QBs are not drawn to Notre Dame. It’s not an open offense and ND does not have a Championship since 1988.

The big mistake right now is the way BK and his staff treated Phil. They basically gave up on him and didn’t even try to develop him. He came out and said it publicly. In his first ever start, he had more passing yards than Book, against the same opponent. I don’t know how it will play out for Phil but his upside is way higher than Book. Just a bad mistake. This also hurts recruiting, what 5-star QB will want to come to ND after seeing how the staff treated Phil in favor of a lower ceiling guy like Book? At least they gave Wimbush a chance and worked with him, he just didn’t have what it takes to be a QB at this level and that’s OK, it happens. But for Phil to not even get a chance....so wrong.

 

[savvyandsassier]

“Hater”

threads are the worst kind of threads.

Right, because internet hatering is the currency of this board. And it's the cancer of society. And eventually it's going to be it's downfall.

And I'm not talking about real conviction and real discussion. I'm talking about the petty, ego-driven, ego-indulging sniping and bickering, as well as the dread self-reinforcing tribalism. Social media's been around, what, 10, 15 years? At least at scale? And look at the devastation it's already wreaked.

Anyway, that's basically what so much of social media is about, being a hater, so of course that makes them the worst kind of threads. If you're already a drug addict, and then someone starts scolding you for it and wants to take it away from you, well then naturally you're not going to like it. You want more of that heroin!

 

[Golson5]

The big mistake right now is the way BK and his staff treated Phil. They basically gave up on him and didn’t even try to develop him. He came out and said it publicly. In his first ever start, he had more passing yards than Book, against the same opponent. I don’t know how it will play out for Phil but his upside is way higher than Book. Just a bad mistake. This also hurts recruiting, what 5-star QB will want to come to ND after seeing how the staff treated Phil in favor of a lower ceiling guy like Book? At least they gave Wimbush a chance and worked with him, he just didn’t have what it takes to be a QB at this level and that’s OK, it happens. But for Phil to not even get a chance....so wrong.

Obviously it didn't hurt us, we got a better prospect than Phil in Buchner

 

[IrishMike409]

The big mistake right now is the way BK and his staff treated Phil. They basically gave up on him and didn’t even try to develop him. He came out and said it publicly. In his first ever start, he had more passing yards than Book, against the same opponent. I don’t know how it will play out for Phil but his upside is way higher than Book. Just a bad mistake. This also hurts recruiting, what 5-star QB will want to come to ND after seeing how the staff treated Phil in favor of a lower ceiling guy like Book? At least they gave Wimbush a chance and worked with him, he just didn’t have what it takes to be a QB at this level and that’s OK, it happens. But for Phil to not even get a chance....so wrong.

You have no idea what went on in locker room and meeting rooms and practice field. Phil admitted that football stopped being fun. That tells me Phil moped around, got discouraged, and felt sorry for himself. No thanks. I’ll take a winner like Book over Phil everyday.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Obviously it didn't hurt us, we got a better prospect than Phil in Buchner

Besides, I bet you it's bullshit too. That would be my guess at least. A bunch of spiteful, miserable BK haters running with some rumor that poor little PJ was mistreated and ill-used by BK and Tommy Rees, and that's why he transferred and yet another reason why BK is so terrible. How convenient. That's like the most pettiest, transparent conspiracy theory type bullshit you could think of.

But who knows, right? Unless you were there personally in the room with those guys, it's pretty much just speculatin'. Whether it's PJ who's a punk, or BK who's an asshole. Myself I never once have thought of BK as some sort of QB guru, and don't even know where that myth got started. Anybody who ever watched him interacting with this QBs at UC like I did, would have no such illusions. IMO BK is a whiner by temperament, who looks like he gets along poorly with his QBs, and is the opposite of some sort of QB whisperer.

So if PJ wasn't hitting it off with him, I'm not really sure anyone hits it off with BK. That would be my best guess. At least some of the haters out there had the decency, upon reading PJ's interview where he cries in his milk, and talks just a little too much shit about ND, to take some offense to that, and to circle the wagons a bit, even though ideally they would love to blame it on BK like they typically do.

 

[spenna]

If getting the hell out of the way means running into the endzone I will take it ! His three rushing TD's before halftime broke the Notre Dame record for qb rushing TDs before the half.

I don't hate anybody , i just do not think Kelly will ever win a N C . and i don't think its his fault. He can only recruit the players the university lets him go after . Book is as good as his receivers , but he is good . Most LONG TIME fans agree with Johnny Lujack , we care about wins not graduation rates .

 

[Pennick4]

Pennick
Would you compare Book's arm to Jamarcus Russell or maybe Aaron Rodgers?

Nope. Neither but doesn't mean he doesn't have a good arm. He is a very good college qb and arm strength isn't an issue. He is a very underrated runner.

 

[Kcndmis97]

Obviously it didn't hurt us, we got a better prospect than Phil in Buchner

We keep saying that. I think we said that in 2018 when Wimbush was proven to not be the guy....we said, at least we have Phil. Now that Phil is not the guy, I guess Buchner is next. At some point you have to look at the source of the issue and not keeping hoping for the next guy.

 

[d1042]

“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

ND ain’t what it used to be.

 

[d1042]

We keep saying that. I think we said that in 2018 when Wimbush was proven to not be the guy....we said, at least we have Phil. Now that Phil is not the guy, I guess Buchner is next. At some point you have to look at the source of the issue and not keeping hoping for the next guy.

Pyne <- Book <- Rees
Wimbush -> PJ -> Buchner

 

[NDinNJ]

First of all, are you comparing Clemson academics to Notre Dame academics?

Second, all this talk about Kelly not developing QBs is ridiculous.

Name one current top 5 program where the coach developed a 3 star or less QB!

Top programs have top rated QBs. The coaches did not develop them.

Riley has had too QBs from day one at Oklahoma. He did not develop any of them.

Im not comparing Clemson academics to ND, I’m comparing their recruiting during the same period prior to Clemson winning a natty, very comparable.

I was comparing ND academics in 88-96 to 2011-present. It hasn’t changed. Holtz won games that mattered with Kelly We’re still waiting.

As for QB’s here’s what Kelly has had in his 11 years. Kelly has failed the position his entire time here. I find it hard to believe none of the individuals listed below couldn’t pan out. There has to be some truth to what what PJ said in that article.

Crist composite 5 star
Golson composite 4 star
Zaire composite 4 star
Kiser composite 4 star
Wimbush composite 4 star
Jurkovec composite 4 star

 

[d1042]

sometimes it is about the fit! not just the talent.

The QB needs to exemplify what the coach envisions his offense is designed to do. Based upon sheer physical talents Book and Rees are hardly the top 2. But for Kelly they are the best fit.
Right now, my guess is that Pyne is a guy like that.

 

[Zorich 88]

The big mistake right now is the way BK and his staff treated Phil. They basically gave up on him and didn’t even try to develop him. He came out and said it publicly. In his first ever start, he had more passing yards than Book, against the same opponent. I don’t know how it will play out for Phil but his upside is way higher than Book. Just a bad mistake. This also hurts recruiting, what 5-star QB will want to come to ND after seeing how the staff treated Phil in favor of a lower ceiling guy like Book? At least they gave Wimbush a chance and worked with him, he just didn’t have what it takes to be a QB at this level and that’s OK, it happens. But for Phil to not even get a chance....so wrong.

As fans, we do not have a clue what goes on behind closed doors.

If Phil was better than Book 3 years ago, Phil would be the ND starter now.

Phil was not better than Book. No way was Phil going to start over Book. All he had to do was wait his turn. Instead, he jumped ship. What powerhouse school picked him up? Oh wait, BC got him.

 

[Zorich 88]

Im not comparing Clemson academics to ND, I’m comparing their recruiting during the same period prior to Clemson winning a natty, very comparable.

I was comparing ND academics in 88-96 to 2011-present. It hasn’t changed. Holtz won games that mattered with Kelly We’re still waiting.

As for QB’s here’s what Kelly has had in his 11 years. Kelly has failed the position his entire time here. I find it hard to believe none of the individuals listed below couldn’t pan out. There has to be some truth to what what PJ said in that article.

Crist composite 5 star
Golson composite 4 star
Zaire composite 4 star
Kiser composite 4 star
Wimbush composite 4 star
Jurkovec composite 4 star

I just do not understand your point???

 

[NDinNJ]

I just do not understand your point???

My point is you bring up academics and recruiting for BK failing to get that win vs a top 5 or major bowl win.

ND academics haven’t changed
ND recruiting has been on par with Clemson, yet Clemson has 2 natty’s and BK is still trying to beat a top 5 team.

 

[Golson5]

My point is you bring up academics and recruiting for BK failing to get that win vs a top 5 or major bowl win.

ND academics haven’t changed
ND recruiting has been on par with Clemson, yet Clemson has 2 natty’s and BK is still trying to beat a top 5 team.

Clemson landed the elite QB (Watson, Lawrence) and more elite top level players

 

[Kcndmis97]

As fans, we do not have a clue what goes on behind closed doors.

If Phil was better than Book 3 years ago, Phil would be the ND starter now.

Phil was not better than Book. No way was Phil going to start over Book. All he had to do was wait his turn. Instead, he jumped ship. What powerhouse school picked him up? Oh wait, BC got him.

But I thought you believed that college programs do not develop QBs? They develop themselves and either have the skills or they don’t, right? If that’s the case then Phil should have overtaken Book last season. Book is a 3-star, his ceiling limited, does not have ideal height or arm strength whereas Phil has the prototype size and arm strength, plus he was a top 100 recruit. So what gives? In fact Wimbush was ranked even higher, #60 overall in the country. Wimbush was ranked 40 spots higher than this guy, D Haskins of OSU yet Haskins was a 1st round pick and Wimbush is not in football.

Any way you want to spin it, BK and staff have failed big time when it comes to QBs, either development or recruiting. That’s what has held ND back from competing better and possibly winning one of these games against elite opponents. Now the fan base is hoping Buchner is the guy, there’s always a next guy. Pyne was rated just outside the top 100 so that will be Four top 100 QB recruits. That’s better than most schools, including OSU. At some point we have to start looking at the root of the issue and it may not be the QBs themselves.

 

[IrishMike409]

My point is you bring up academics and recruiting for BK failing to get that win vs a top 5 or major bowl win.

ND academics haven’t changed
ND recruiting has been on par with Clemson, yet Clemson has 2 natty’s and BK is still trying to beat a top 5 team.

Recruiting not on par w Clemson.

 

[NDinNJ]

Recruiting not on par w Clemson.

If you’re too lazy to research it that’s on you not me. Oh and I’m not talking the last 3 years. Look at 2011 thru 2017.

 

[NDinNJ]

Clemson landed the elite QB (Watson, Lawrence) and more elite top level players

Watson was a composite 4 star. BK recruited 5 composite 4 stars

Lawrence was recruited after Clemson won a natty. Amazing what winning vs elite teams does for recruiting.

Why is it so hard to admit BK failed the QB position?