Walk-on Mahoney
- Thread starter francade
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Check out Pelini's tapes on the other site. He is better than practice squad.
Seen it a few times! I really hope he develops into a special teams player for ND once he adds about 20lbs. That said, I'm not overly impressed by the tape, nor were the other coaches evaluating it I guess considering he wasn't offered by anyone other than Youngstown State.
Love getting kids like this though. Son of a coach and likely football junkie. Kids like that, with a little bit of size like he possesses, can play on my practice roster all day and maybe he develops into more.
When your walk ons are better than your scholarship players you have a problem.
yep....and a few knuckleheads here ask asinine questions and are incredibly galactically dumb!
Apparently, they wake up that way and stay that way all day; but they are too dumb to know that either.
Maybe they should tell ND to just field walk ons!
I know most of you live & die w/ recruiting rankings but I think there r way too many 4 & 5 star busts and conversely way too many mahoneys that don't get better offers for me to have much faith in recruiting services. There's too much of premium put on 40 times & shuttle runs than there is evaluating a good football player. We have too many of the former & not enough of the latter, imo.
And I know that title winners all have high recruiting rankings but when u see a guy like renfroe at Clemson play way he did in the natty to help bring Clemson a title, it makes me think there are a lot of renfroes out there that never get a chance because of the thought process of "he may be a good practice player" but nothing more. I'm not ragging on the services either. It's tough to evaluate every player in the country.
^ sometimes that unknown guy stars in situations because he gets less focus by the DC during the game planning and practice up to the game. It is like the reserve 2nd baseman that coms in for a few games and is great, but as an every game/everyday player he becomes what made him a reserve.
If you can get the higher ranked prospects, that is the prudent move. When you cannot you look to the next highest thought of prospect...
Again, only fans of teams unable to recruit elite players denigrate the general recruiting systems results.
It becomes generality vs exception.
If you can get the higher ranked prospects, that is the prudent move. When you cannot you look to the next highest thought of prospect...
Again, only fans of teams unable to recruit elite players denigrate the general recruiting systems results.
It becomes generality vs exception.
Perse,
While I completely agree with your tiered recruiting strategy, I do think there is something to be said for having an eye for talent regardless of star rating.
I point to a guy like Genmark-Heath who was likely underrated because he came onto the scene late in California and has his best football days ahead of him. Being able to project talent, regardless of ranking is an important variable for an evaluator.
Like you I want ND to bring in a plethora of 4 and 5 star players each year becauae they will give ND the best chance for success. That said, a school like Notre Dame, that will never win the arms race in recruiting against the likes of Alabama, must also focus on filling slots with kids that have intangibles and high reward physical attributes.
I think ND's model for winning will be more Clemson like than anything. A couple 5 stars at key positions that you count on to take over the game, then compliment those players with a roster of developed 4 star talent and 3 star guys with high upside. Athletes.
If ND can even just bump their recruiting a few spots, were talking an extra 1-2, 4 stars per class in place of 3 stars and those key 3-4 top 100 players each class, complimented by talented 3 stars that have a chance to develop into dynamic athletes, ND can be successful. Recruiting among the top 10-12 teams in the nation and develop, develop, develop.
Thanks for the correction. Like I said, I like quality walk ons. I would hope that ND would be able to get guys as walk ons that had the option to play at 1-AA ball. Getting a kid with solid measurables gives him the opportunity to help you on practice squad, scout team, and you never know, maybe he becomes Mike Anello. Alabama not too long ago started a walk on safety who became an All American and helped take the Tide to a Natty. Renfrow did the same for Clemson. If you take 20+ walk ons in a 4 year cycle, you hope that 1-2 are better than anyone thought. Maybe this kid is one of those. Likely not. But maybe.
Elite programs get elite recruits. There is no debating that statistical reality.
However, on an individual basis, that's far less meaningful.
Did being a walk-on stop JJ Watt from being an All-American, 1st Round Pick, All-Pro, and repeated Defensive MVP?
Did being a walk-on stop Clay Mathews from doing the same?
Heck, you have multiple guys that weren't even allowed to walk-on to D-I teams going in the 1st Round now, like Carson Wentz and Ryan Ramzyk
The individual's evaluation is what's always most important on an individual level. So arguing "5*'s tend to work out better than walk-ons" on an individual level is pretty meaningless.
But as a recruiting trend, if you aren't pulling in Top10 (and really Top5) classes, you're not winning championships
I think this is about right.
If you can get 20-25 walk-ons who are all D1-AA type of players, with enough drive to come and work despite a low chance at PT and no scholarship.....you can hope to get 1-2 of them to develop into potential contributors to your team.
Joe Schmidt was actually valuable in 2014, before his injury.
Finke looks like he could contribute at Slot WR and on Special Teams
And I bet there can be a few more out there that we could get to contribute, while hoping to pull a JJ Watt, Clay Mathews, Carson Wentz, etc. out of our hat
And there is nothing wrong with a walk on busting his ass on the scout team for a few years, impressing the coaching, getting bigger and faster in the weight room and becoming better than a scholarship player. If that is ever the case sign me up for a walk on starter. Stars do not matter if a man is a better ball player than the other
fans make that contention out of sour grapes; you guys must think you been winning ... somthing?
those top teams beating the snot out of ND are teams recruiting star power.
Agreed that you need the elite players to win, I'm just saying that in some cases, a walk-on can play as well or better than the blue chip recruit. It's hard to find them I guess, but they're out there. Overall talent evaluation is lacking in this area, imo. You can't tell me that there are only a handful of finkes & renfrows out there. Recruiters are enamored with/ measurables when they should pay more attention to football skill, imo.
that it is hard to find them is understatement; they are the next level of hard after 'diamond in the rough'
We will never be on a level playing field with most teams when it comes to walkons until the Alabamas and Clemsons of the world cost $60,000 a year to attend. That's the reality. It's great that we get a Finke or Aniello every so often, but we are never going to do it in any significant way.
Your point is well taken! Regardless, they aren't getting a ton out of walk ons either. A couple quality players a decade, really no more or less than ND.
Yes you are correct and I hate touching this subject , just ask my buddy Tom Lemming what he thinks about all of this
yep; no doubt! you want the job of finding them? A coach cannot survive on hopes of identifying those guys. And often times a kid may be great but just does not have the physical attributes to be at the highest level. Ability is not enough. JMO, ND has a half dozen players on scholarship that also fit that limitation.
Yea I wouldn't say it's a coaches job to find hidden talent unless it's in your own state. Coaches need to recruit for stars, as much as some people don't like to admit it. The scouts are generally good at identifiying who the best athletes are. The more 4 or 5 star kids added with a good player development program leads to wins. A walk on here or there who outworks higher rated players and MADE themselves a better ballplayer then others at the postition will usually get their chance
Not necessarily true. Just depends on the coach and situation.
Chris Peterson made a fantastic career out of proving that what you just said is 100% inaccurate. Chip Kelly got an NFL HC & GM gig by proving the same thing. Patterson at TCU got his entire school invited to a new conference by proving you wrong as well.
(and there are other examples too)
But certainly the higher percentage bet is on the kids that are highly recruited (and normally rated highly)
It's very hard to win big without those types of players
Coaches definitely need to identify the actual talent. Just "recruiting for stars" is a terrible idea, if you're only basing those "stars" on what the "scouts" for places like Rivals, 247, or ESPN tell you.
That's a great way to end up with a roster like Texas's despite having a nothing but Top5 classes, according to rankings sites
(Mack Brown)
Heck, both Meyer and Saban take quite a few 3*'s because they're players that they've identified as being better than what Rivals rates them as. Not to mention the fact that now when Meyer/Saban offer a recruit who's currently ranked as a 3* (or NR) Rivals and 247 suddenly move that kid up to a 4*
Identifying your own talent is CRITICAL to success
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