Thoughts on Brandon Wimbush converting to Arnaz Battle/Carlyle Holiday role?

[chaseball]

Wimbush seems way too talented/gifted athletically to be on the sideline in a headset and not on the field making plays. He still has 2 years of eligibility left after this season which would give him plenty of time to learn a skill position.

After Brady Quinn took over at QB, Carlyle Holiday became a nice play maker at WR/Punt Returner/etc. Same with Arnaz Battle .. both even became NFL WRs.

Wimbush looks like he could be a really nice player in this role, especially in an offense like this one, where WRs are thrown a lot of short passes and expected to make plays with their legs after the catch.

The biggest question is whether the player still has QB ambitions (willing to accept the position change instead of transferring), and whether the staff thinks he could be a bigger asset at another position.

At 6'1 210 lbs, he seems like he would be a better version of the current avery davis in that RB/slot WR role.

 

[SALittleGiant513]

Need Wimbush to stay as a back-up. Cross training him in the middle of the season takes away from his limited reps going forward as a QB. Also, cross training him as a wr/rb will take away from reps of the wr/rb's as it is. I get the desire to get the best athletes on field but we don't want to have to burn PJ's shirt as an inexperienced backup if something happens to Book.

 

[chaseball]

Need Wimbush to stay as a back-up. Cross training him in the middle of the season takes away from his limited reps going forward as a QB. Also, cross training him as a wr/rb will take away from reps of the wr/rb's as it is. I get the desire to get the best athletes on field but we don't want to have to burn PJ's shirt as an inexperienced backup if something happens to Book.

Good point. What about 2019 and beyond ?

 

[88ND]

Need Wimbush to stay as a back-up. Cross training him in the middle of the season takes away from his limited reps going forward as a QB. Also, cross training him as a wr/rb will take away from reps of the wr/rb's as it is. I get the desire to get the best athletes on field but we don't want to have to burn PJ's shirt as an inexperienced backup if something happens to Book.

No. He could stop right now playing QB and knows enough about the position of an emergency came up he could jump right in.

If he truly is an elite athlete, he needs one the field.

Phil is the backup now regardless the horseshit spewed by the media. Why? One reason...he's accurate.

 

[theskibro]

Good point. What about 2019 and beyond ?

This is a work in progress. It’s too soon to know if Book is the real deal. Stanford will tells us a lot

Meanwhile, we need a backup and Wimbush can help us If things progress with Book, I have no doubt Kelly will have that conversion conversation with Brandon this winter.

The reality is Wimbush does not have QB skills for the next level. There is no doubt on that. Maybe he can be mentored to see the field better and make good decisions doubt it
Maybe he can pass more accurately. Doubt it

Will he recognize this and accept the move?

He should. He likely will. But. But.

If I was him I would struggle more with one undeniable fact —. Kelly n the ND staff consistently picked him as the starter the past 2 years. So what’s changed? What did they not see?

How can a guy impress his coaches in practice but not succeed in game situations?

The answer seems to be his decision making and seeing the field.

I maintain it also his inability to pass. And that is baffling. How does he throw so poorly in games but not in practice? Or is Kelly just blind?

Expect to see BW in a slot role next year and also in the backfield ala that number 3 who transferred from USC, can’t think of his name - ? Man it’s tough to get old. Ahh, Amir Carlisle

 

[lyonhawk]

I think this is the best move for him going forward unless he just REALLY wants to play QB. I don't think he has the frame to play RB full time, but he could be a terror on jet sweeps and WR screens that work when the ball is delivered accurately.

As for burning PJ's redshirt, the rules were changed so that he could play in up to 4 games and maintain the year of eligibility, so unless Book went down with a major injury, he could fill in and not lose his redshirt.

 

[SALittleGiant513]

No. He could stop right now playing QB and knows enough about the position of an emergency came up he could jump right in.

If he truly is an elite athlete, he needs one the field.

Phil is the backup now regardless the horseshit spewed by the media. Why? One reason...he's accurate.

So with developing RB's (Davis, Armstrong) and WR's (Young, Austin etc) you want to take practice snaps away from them to give to Wimbush and do not want him to continue to work on the QB game plan during the week?

 

[chaseball]

This is a work in progress. It’s too soon to know if Book is the real deal. Stanford will tells us a lot

Meanwhile, we need a backup and Wimbush can help us If things progress with Book, I have no doubt Kelly will have that conversion conversation with Brandon this winter.

The reality is Wimbush does not have QB skills for the next level. There is no doubt on that. Maybe he can be mentored to see the field better and make good decisions doubt it
Maybe he can pass more accurately. Doubt it

Will he recognize this and accept the move?

He should. He likely will. But. But.

If I was him I would struggle more with one undeniable fact —. Kelly n the ND staff consistently picked him as the starter the past 2 years. So what’s changed? What did they not see?

How can a guy impress his coaches in practice but not succeed in game situations?

The answer seems to be his decision making and seeing the field.

I maintain it also his inability to pass. And that is baffling. How does he throw so poorly in games but not in practice? Or is Kelly just blind?

Expect to see BW in a slot role next year and also in the backfield ala that number 3 who transferred from USC, can’t think of his name - ? Man it’s tough to get old

I think coaches, like fans, can get caught up in the hype with the player's talent.

Wimbush is way more physically imposing, throws the ball with more velocity, and has the potential to be one of the most dynamic runners at the QB position in the league.

As a coach, you want to develop/see that potential materialize, even to a detriment.

But Ian Book is just a solid FBS level QB across the board. Where he lacks in physical traits he makes up for with natural instincts to play the position. And i'm sure these skills are easy to overlook in a practice environment.

At least this is my best guess as to why it took Ian Book so long to get a legitimate shot.

I think Ian Book needed that perfect storm of the right opponent, and then a BIG breakout game, to leave NO MORE DOUBT in the eyes of the coaches. Now they are working overtime to get Book ready for the next 8 opponents despite what BK is saying to the media.

The entire offense ran like a well oiled machine, with one guy after another making a play based on Ian Book's ability to make good decisions and throw a catchable ball on point/in stride.

 

[88ND]

So with developing RB's (Davis, Armstrong) and WR's (Young, Austin etc) you want to take practice snaps away from them to give to Wimbush and do not want him to continue to work on the QB game plan during the week?

No!

I said nothing of him being a RB.

He's too clumsy to be a tailback. Sorry but he's not a running back.

 

[SALittleGiant513]

No!

I said nothing of him being a RB.

He's too clumsy to be a tailback. Sorry but he's not a running back.

Ok, so no RB (even though that has been discussed by people on the board) just focusing on WR. Wimbush has not ran routes, would need significant practice running routes and learning the offense from a WR position. Taking him out of the QB room and putting him in the WR room limits his ability to be the best backup possible. Why do that now versus in the off-season? Would the benefit of getting Wimbush ready in practice to the point where he is in there for 10 to 15 snaps a game or whatever it is be worth the harm it could pose to taking those practice snaps away from Austin and Young and/or any of the other younger WR's?

 

[stu4don]

I would imagine if he doesn't see enough reps and if Ian keeps it up and stays healthy, he would transfer and play QB somewhere else (maybe with a more suitable offensive coordinator for his talents?) Either way, I only wish the kid the best. I do hope he stays focused and ready this year. It only takes one hit and he is back to #1!

 

[mbd11]

I think he weighs closer to 230. So RB might be a better fit. But either way, maybe next year. Because this year we still need him at QB.

 

[88ND]

Ok, so no RB (even though that has been discussed by people on the board) just focusing on WR. Wimbush has not ran routes, would need significant practice running routes and learning the offense from a WR position. Taking him out of the QB room and putting him in the WR room limits his ability to be the best backup possible. Why do that now versus in the off-season? Would the benefit of getting Wimbush ready in practice to the point where he is in there for 10 to 15 snaps a game or whatever it is be worth the harm it could pose to taking those practice snaps away from Austin and Young and/or any of the other younger WR's?

Let's see....
Half the board thought highly of BW and Book was the "clearly beat out guy" ....

I on the other hand told the board weeks ago if this team has big aspirations BW won't be the starter all year. I didn't say kiss the ring of Book but anyone with two ounce of football sense can clearly see the offense struggles immensely with BW taking snaps.



Lastly
..i never said he's a running back. I never said he should be reciever.

If he's that great of an athlete he needs to be in the defensive secondary rotation in the safety area. Nickel back, safety, whatever....he's not a corner...hips and footwork are not fluid enough but he could contribute playing centerfield. Tall, can run, and if he has ball skills even more the merrier. He would know an opponents offense a little bit from a different perspective.

If he insists playing QB then let him transfer because if there is one surefire thing about BW in 14 starts it's that in BK's offense he makes it completely one dimensional and can't throw with any accuracy.

The why can be debated until the end of time... Fact remains IN THIS SETTING he's NOT a productive QB.

P.s.
Before all the people who really don't know athletes and positions on the football field start talking like my suggestion is crazy....................

Since it's Stanford week I'll remind you a player who just couldnt play QB for the cardinal but was too good to keep off the field.
Scott Frost.
He needed a Tom Osborne offense to thrive at QB and he got it...
But until then he was a good safety for the trees !!

 

[tbonesays]

No. He could stop right now playing QB and knows enough about the position of an emergency came up he could jump right in.

If he truly is an elite athlete, he needs one the field.

Phil is the backup now regardless the horseshit spewed by the media. Why? One reason...he's accurate.

Doesn't it take @4 years to 'learn the system' under BK?

 

[Duo]

Look at Bama: Jalen Hurts and Tua Tagoviloa. Saban benched the better runner in favor of the better passer.

 

[88ND]

Doesn't it take @4 years to 'learn the system' under BK?

Good point...

I heard Zaire was ready to take the reins

 

[88ND]

Look at Bama: Jalen Hurts and Tua Tagoviloa. Saban benched the better runner in favor of the better passer.

Bama was one dimensional under Hurts.

Tua is every bit as good a runner because the linebackers have to play him honest. Amazing what a real dual threat can do.

 

[twalsh]

Wimbush seems way too talented/gifted athletically to be on the sideline in a headset and not on the field making plays. He still has 2 years of eligibility left after this season which would give him plenty of time to learn a skill position.

After Brady Quinn took over at QB, Carlyle Holiday became a nice play maker at WR/Punt Returner/etc. Same with Arnaz Battle .. both even became NFL WRs.

Wimbush looks like he could be a really nice player in this role, especially in an offense like this one, where WRs are thrown a lot of short passes and expected to make plays with their legs after the catch.

The biggest question is whether the player still has QB ambitions (willing to accept the position change instead of transferring), and whether the staff thinks he could be a bigger asset at another position.

At 6'1 210 lbs, he seems like he would be a better version of the current avery davis in that RB/slot WR role.

All valid points, but NOT in the middle of the season. We can't give Jurkovic enough reps to elevate him to #2, because Book needs lots of reps. Any change decision on Wimbush comes either in the offseason, or in bowl prep if we are not in the playoff.

 

[twalsh]

I think he weighs closer to 230. So RB might be a better fit. But either way, maybe next year. Because this year we still need him at QB.

I stood next to him at UNC last year. No way he's only 210 lbs. he's a monster.

 

[d1042]

Wimbush seems way too talented/gifted athletically to be on the sideline in a headset and not on the field making plays. He still has 2 years of eligibility left after this season which would give him plenty of time to learn a skill position.

After Brady Quinn took over at QB, Carlyle Holiday became a nice play maker at WR/Punt Returner/etc. Same with Arnaz Battle .. both even became NFL WRs.

Wimbush looks like he could be a really nice player in this role, especially in an offense like this one, where WRs are thrown a lot of short passes and expected to make plays with their legs after the catch.

The biggest question is whether the player still has QB ambitions (willing to accept the position change instead of transferring), and whether the staff thinks he could be a bigger asset at another position.

At 6'1 210 lbs, he seems like he would be a better version of the current avery davis in that RB/slot WR role.

BW is a QB.
He will likely graduate and transfer.
He will pursue a spot that looks like he will be able to step in and lead a team.
He will have 1 year and will want it to be a lifelong happy memory.

 

[twalsh]

BW is a QB.
He will likely graduate and transfer.
He will pursue a spot that looks like he will be able to step in and lead a team.
He will have 1 year and will want it to be a lifelong happy memory.

I hope he makes a better decision than Malik. If your not an NFL QB, and an Ivy League school offers you free grad school and a chance to play, you take it.

 

[tbonesays]

I hope he makes a better decision than Malik. If your not an NFL QB, and an Ivy League school offers you free grad school and a chance to play, you take it.

Grad school in what? The Ivies cannot give football scholarships.

Football salary seems to be almost an all or nothing proposition. A benched senior should do whatever gives the best chance at collecting some pay. Doesn't training camp pay players something just to try to make the team?

 

[SALittleGiant513]

Let's see....
Half the board thought highly of BW and Book was the "clearly beat out guy" ....

I on the other hand told the board weeks ago if this team has big aspirations BW won't be the starter all year. I didn't say kiss the ring of Book but anyone with two ounce of football sense can clearly see the offense struggles immensely with BW taking snaps.



Lastly
..i never said he's a running back. I never said he should be reciever.

If he's that great of an athlete he needs to be in the defensive secondary rotation in the safety area. Nickel back, safety, whatever....he's not a corner...hips and footwork are not fluid enough but he could contribute playing centerfield. Tall, can run, and if he has ball skills even more the merrier. He would know an opponents offense a little bit from a different perspective.

If he insists playing QB then let him transfer because if there is one surefire thing about BW in 14 starts it's that in BK's offense he makes it completely one dimensional and can't throw with any accuracy.

The why can be debated until the end of time... Fact remains IN THIS SETTING he's NOT a productive QB.

P.s.
Before all the people who really don't know athletes and positions on the football field start talking like my suggestion is crazy....................

Since it's Stanford week I'll remind you a player who just couldnt play QB for the cardinal but was too good to keep off the field.
Scott Frost.
He needed a Tom Osborne offense to thrive at QB and he got it...
But until then he was a good safety for the trees !!

Look man I am not trying to bust you up. OP is the one who asked about either RB or WR. I was just trying to give my opinion in that context. Switching him to defense right now seems like a worse idea for the remainder of the season. I agree if after the season he is insistent on QB and he hasnt regained his spot a parting of the ways is likely.

 

[twalsh]

Grad school in what? The Ivies cannot give football scholarships.

Football salary seems to be almost an all or nothing proposition. A benched senior should do whatever gives the best chance at collecting some pay. Doesn't training camp pay players something just to try to make the team?

You have to be invited to training camp, it's not a choice.

 

[tbonesays]

You have to be invited to training camp, it's not a choice.

I know. I had to change up my entire summer plans.

 

[twalsh]

I know. I had to change up my entire summer plans.

 

[michigaNDer#1]

Maybe Kelly sees a LBer in him, like Demetrius Jones.

 

[NDIRISH53]

He only has 1 year left after this year, but no I would keep him at QB and try to find some packages for him. Run a few qb draws with him against the nerds? Some read option? I’d like that!

Also, sprinkling BW in for a few plays here and there forces defenses to spend time preparing for both QB’s in future weeks. I’d say give him a play or 2, if he rips off a huge one immediately snap it again and make the defense panic. Then put book back in.

 

[michigaNDer#1]

He only has 1 year left after this year, but no I would keep him at QB and try to find some packages for him. Run a few qb draws with him against the nerds? Some read option? I’d like that!

Set up a triple option package for him to eat up 10 minute drives in the second half.

 

[IrishInOntario]

I'd love to see him commit his athleticism to another position and work his ass off in the weight room this winter to convert his body. I think he could be a legitimate contributor elsewhere on the offense.

That said, with the abundance of teams annually that are in need of help at QB, it's more likely that Brandon graduates and transfers at season's end, for the opportunity to play elsewhere... He's 13-3 as a starter. A team in need of a quarterback will come knocking.

Expect Ian Book, Phil Jurkovec to me the #1 and #2 heading into next year... And honestly, for the future of the program, I don't think that's the worst thing.

A note on Jurkovec while I'm on the topic... Man do I hope that kid is the passer he's billed to be, because he certainly isn't fast. Difference between watching him and Ian Book run the read option (it was only one play) was night and day. He's mobile, but he certainly isn't making you pay with his legs at the college level. Hopefully he's the gunslinger we saw on his high school film!

 

[88ND]

Look man I am not trying to bust you up. OP is the one who asked about either RB or WR. I was just trying to give my opinion in that context. Switching him to defense right now seems like a worse idea for the remainder of the season. I agree if after the season he is insistent on QB and he hasnt regained his spot a parting of the ways is likely.

I didn't suggest you were however let's just say for the post's sake he is a top athlete on the squad.
If that is in fact true I want him on the field in a productive role.
The only productive role I see him playing is at free safety or the extra defensive back on a nickel or dime.

He's not quick enough to be a reciever, not fluid enough and honestly tough evough to be runnimg back....

If he's not really a top athlete on the squad then he doesn't leave the sideline.

 

[88ND]

He only has 1 year left after this year, but no I would keep him at QB and try to find some packages for him. Run a few qb draws with him against the nerds? Some read option? I’d like that!

Also, sprinkling BW in for a few plays here and there forces defenses to spend time preparing for both QB’s in future weeks. I’d say give him a play or 2, if he rips off a huge one immediately snap it again and make the defense panic. Then put book back in.

No.

Book was a trooper this whole time all the while knowing he was much better at passing.
Waited the wait. Bit his tongue....

Now he goes out and has the offense clickimg like a machine we are going to rotate BW in occasionally now for what?

Sympathy plays?

GMAFB

He had 14 starts to prove his worth.

If he wants to contribute its a different position or thank you for coming transfer

 

[tbonesays]

I didn't suggest you were however let's just say for the post's sake he is a top athlete on the squad.
If that is in fact true I want him on the field in a productive role.
The only productive role I see him playing is at free safety or the extra defensive back on a nickel or dime.

He's not quick enough to be a reciever, not fluid enough and honestly tough evough to be runnimg back....

If he's not really a top athlete on the squad then he doesn't leave the sideline.

That only works for one game. If BW being in means a running play then it will work for zero games.

FWIW I wanted Carlyle Haliday moved to safety.
FWIW

 

[88ND]

That only works for one game. If BW being in means a running play then it will work for zero games.

FWIW I wanted Carlyle Haliday moved to safety.
FWIW

I thought the same thing. Exactly.

 

[echowaker]

No!

I said nothing of him being a RB.

He's too clumsy to be a tailback. Sorry but he's not a running back.

way off. you're making opinions about a player based on a totally different required skill set. if a change to RB was made and the player in question completely bought in it could easily be achieved given that players above average physical abilities.

 

[Get Nasty]

A note on Jurkovec while I'm on the topic... Man do I hope that kid is the passer he's billed to be, because he certainly isn't fast. Difference between watching him and Ian Book run the read option (it was only one play) was night and day. He's mobile, but he certainly isn't making you pay with his legs at the college level. Hopefully he's the gunslinger we saw on his high school film!

Being at the game watching him run around in warm ups, that one play, etc. I'm extremely confident phil is more athletic than Book. The difference right now is being fast vs playing fast. Book is confident and plays the read option fast where as i'm guessing phil wasn't as confident and was clearly hesitant in his first live action. When phil gets his chance he will be using his legs, i have no doubt, not like Wimbush, but bigger gains than book.

 

[IrishHerb]

Grad school in what? The Ivies cannot give football scholarships.

Football salary seems to be almost an all or nothing proposition. A benched senior should do whatever gives the best chance at collecting some pay. Doesn't training camp pay players something just to try to make the team?

Right, the Ivies do not give athletic scholarships, but they do give academic scholarships to graduate students in some fields.

 

[NDIRISH53]

No.

Book was a trooper this whole time all the while knowing he was much better at passing.
Waited the wait. Bit his tongue....

Now he goes out and has the offense clickimg like a machine we are going to rotate BW in occasionally now for what?

Sympathy plays?

GMAFB

He had 14 starts to prove his worth.

If he wants to contribute its a different position or thank you for coming transfer

It’s not sympathy. Wimbush is still a weapon and one of the biggest playmakers on the team.

 

[echowaker]

It’s not sympathy. Wimbush is still a weapon and one of the biggest playmakers on the team.

Exactly. not attempting to take advantage of that would be silly in my opinion. i can envision many, many different looks that nd can use to their advantage going forward.

 

[88ND]

way off. you're making opinions about a player based on a totally different required skill set. if a change to RB was made and the player in question completely bought in it could easily be achieved given that players above average physical abilities.

lol...
That simple huh?
Your ignorance is the beacon of a message board expert know nothing.

You really have no clue but you think you do which makes you twice as ignorant.

I'd bet you anything that BW REALLY bought in on playing QB. Bought in WITH ALL HIS MIGHT!!!

That's worked out so well the head coach benched him for a guy that was said clearly got beat out at practice. The reason according to the head coach is that the offense wasn't working the way they envisioned.

How the hell could that be? Wimbush bought in...right? BW is just such an athletic anomaly how could this have failed? He bought in.

Let me help you
There are things within the game that crossover from one position to the other but you can't just make someone something they are not no matter how much they buy in.

Are you following that?

Let me repeat that for you...no matter how much someone wants to buy into something there are things they just can't do.

This thinking that Brandon Wimbush is a worldly athletic phenom is ridiculous. By division 1 standards in 2018 he has decent speed (not elite) for a skilled position player. Skilled position being any back, reciever, defensive back. Quarterback falls under any back category in case you didn't know.

He takes a shotgun snap..the play develops...natural running lanes unfold. When he chooses to take off its when a play has broken or by design but either way he chooses the path of least resistance. As he should. He takes off running with lots of room and gains yardage. Great.

Taking a handoff heading into the box he is way too clumsy and heavy footed. He is not taking the ball in a tight compact manner and hitting the hole 100 mph or making a cutback all without breaking stride.

No matter how much he buys IN as you say that's something he just can't do. Are there other positions he can contribute? Sure.

Running back isn't one of them.