The 2017 Irish if Kizer Stayed

[iwish]

I was discussing with a friend, and I' wondering what you all think. Would this year be looking different for us if DeShone had stayed?

First, I am personally pretty thrilled with this year (outside of the Miami lapse, obviously). I've said all along that the Irish have exceeded expectations. As for BW, I think he seems like a great young man who represents Notre Dame proudly and properly, has done some amazing things, and most importantly I always assumed would be a 2-year starter who would greatly learn and improve from season 1 to season 2.

That said, BK has been right about a lot of things this year - and he felt strongly Kizer would have benefited greatly from another year here. Granted he is playing for the worst team in the NFL, but his stats are pretty painful (52.5%, 5 TD's with 14 INT's, and a Rating of 54.0).

So my question is - would we have the same, better or worse record if Kizer had stayed? Obviously there's no way to know, this is purely curiosity of what my fellow Irish fans think. "Feels" like we may have won the Georgia game as BW was only starting his second game and was overwhelmed. Kizer likely handles that game a little better. I don't think Kizer makes the difference alone in the Miami game but who knows.

Thoughts?

 

[NIN Irish]

My guess is 2 wins if he stayed.

 

[IRISHJD98]

I think that's a hard question. Kizer would have still been missing Stepherson the first 4 games and would have been faced with receivers that drop passes on key plays. If he had stuck around, who knows if the running game would have been emphasized the way its been this year.

He was definitely a very good QB and could read defenses and run the offense well, but he still only completed 58% of his passes last season. IMO, as a total package, Wimbush is better in the redzone.

 

[Irish Grandeur]

Kizer had his chance last year - ND went 4 and 8. That is not necessarily on him but, I think, Wimbush wins more games than Kizer if he started last year.

Rather than take Kizer forward I took Wimbush backward and believe BW does a better job.

 

[stu4don]

Teams would have had to respect the pass and not load the box. I think we'd be undefeated and ranked #2. Pass protection this year has been good.

 

[HDK]

Wow, some pretty harsh words for Kizer. I'll concede that with Wimbush as starter last year (which assumes he didn't have to go through the Bryan Kelly two QB approach to start the season) we may have won a couple of more games.

But Kizer is twice, maybe three times the quarterback Wimbush is. I don't have anything against Wimbush. He's a great runner and competitor, but he can't pass to save his life.

Kizer wasn't helped last year by the lack of a defense or the loss of every leader on that team. Plus, he didn't get the benefit of Long's more rational approach to play calling.

I think we'd stand very good chance of being 10-1 right now, as I don't think Jesus himself would have led us to a win against Miami, even with his mother calling the plays.

 

[Pennick4]

Hard to say but Kizer wasn't well liked by his teammates. Wimbush has a knack of getting the ball into the end zone. I think BK likes having Wimbush at the helm this year.

 

[NDskins]

Has the returning QB under Coach Kelly improved the longer he is under Kelly? I don't think most of them improved, more lateral to decline year over year under his watch.

 

[HDK]

Hard to say but Kizer wasn't well liked by his teammates. Wimbush has a knack of getting the ball into the end zone. I think BK likes having Wimbush at the helm this year.

How do we know he wasn't well liked? They sure seemed to like him when he almost led them to the playoffs in 2015.

 

[twalsh]

I was discussing with a friend, and I' wondering what you all think. Would this year be looking different for us if DeShone had stayed?

First, I am personally pretty thrilled with this year (outside of the Miami lapse, obviously). I've said all along that the Irish have exceeded expectations. As for BW, I think he seems like a great young man who represents Notre Dame proudly and properly, has done some amazing things, and most importantly I always assumed would be a 2-year starter who would greatly learn and improve from season 1 to season 2.

That said, BK has been right about a lot of things this year - and he felt strongly Kizer would have benefited greatly from another year here. Granted he is playing for the worst team in the NFL, but his stats are pretty painful (52.5%, 5 TD's with 14 INT's, and a Rating of 54.0).

So my question is - would we have the same, better or worse record if Kizer had stayed? Obviously there's no way to know, this is purely curiosity of what my fellow Irish fans think. "Feels" like we may have won the Georgia game as BW was only starting his second game and was overwhelmed. Kizer likely handles that game a little better. I don't think Kizer makes the difference alone in the Miami game but who knows.

Thoughts?

Just too hard to tell. Pretty much same players who went 4-8 with Kizer, but different coaches.

 

[Pennick4]

How do we know he wasn't well liked? They sure seemed to like him when he almost led them to the playoffs in 2015.

It has been widely speculated. Not a good leader.

 

[floridairish]

Kizer nice kid and a big league arm. Appeared from a dstance to not be much of a leader and i did not like his body language when being coached hard or when adversity hit. And the adversity was usually caused by his poor decision making and sloppy mechanics.

 

[floridairish]

Has the returning QB under Coach Kelly improved the longer he is under Kelly? I don't think most of them improved, more lateral to decline year over year under his watch.

Yes Tommy Rees, in 2013 he was a damn good QB especially when you consider he had almost no god given ability. BUT...the kid took the coaching and did not melt. If BW continues to accept being coached he will improve, if you start seeing pouting, shoulder shrugging and sulking he will not. It is all on him because everything is in place for him to be a big time QB in 2018. And in the Heisman discussion if he can play big time ball the next two games.

 

[Toby Smart]

That's what I want to know. How d

It has been widely speculated. Not a good leader.

Hardly speculated by who?

 

[XGoBearcatsX]

It makes no difference because he is in Cleveland, not South Bean and everything past that is pure speculation.

ND is very good in 2017, a top 10 team, and very few saw it coming. BK has done an excellent job and has a chance to put a cherry on the year with two more wins.

2018 should be outstanding!

 

[Pennick4]

That's what I want to know. How d

Hardly speculated by who?

Many beat reporters.

 

[Telx1]

All I know is with Wimbush we are 9-2 with an incredible red zone efficiency and very few turnovers, and under Kizer last year we were the polar opposite. A million variables impacting each.

 

[Kelso86]

Kizer had his chance last year - ND went 4 and 8. That is not necessarily on him but, I think, Wimbush wins more games than Kizer if he started last year.

Rather than take Kizer forward I took Wimbush backward and believe BW does a better job.

"Kizer had his chance last year - ND went 4 and 8."

Also had his chance the year before -- took ND to the Fiesta Bowl.....

 

[Bumpdaddy]

It has been widely speculated. Not a good leader.

And yet he was named team captain for 2017 before deciding to head to the NFL.

 

[Bumpdaddy]

All I know is with Wimbush we are 9-2 with an incredible red zone efficiency and very few turnovers, and under Kizer last year we were the polar opposite. A million variables impacting each.

I gotta admit comments like this baffle me. I'm not picking on you because I've heard many other Irish fans share similar feelings, but I have to ask... Do you think 2016 was Kizer's fault or BK's? I know the easy response might be it was a combination of the 2 but, if so, if any of the fault belonged to BK then, in a season in which we lost 7 games by one possession, most of which the offense scored plenty of points to win while the defense let us down, doesn't the season look completely different for Kizer if BK had coached better? Would anyone have ripped on Kizer if the defense wasn't putrid and our o-line blocked better? Because, from what I saw, I think we would have won all 7 of those 1 possession games if the defense and/or o-line had been even just a little better and I don't think anyone would have found reasons to criticize Kizer.

For the record, I'm not saying the defense and o-line were the only two problems with last year's team. To me they were just the most glaring problems. As far as the rest of the problems were concerned, I see those as being a byproduct of BK's poor coaching last year. Do you see it differently? Do you think DK shares the blame?

 

[Toby Smart]

And yet he was named team captain for 2017 before deciding to head to the NFL.

I could not find one single beat writer, any stories, or any player quotes to support this claim about DK. In fact, what I did find was really nice things coming from CJ Sanders and EQ.

 

[Pennick4]

And yet he was named team captain for 2017 before deciding to head to the NFL.

Named... Not voted

 

[Bumpdaddy]

Named... Not voted

Making that distinction doesn't mean you actually made a point. Why would anyone - player or coach - name Kizer a team captain if they didn't think he had leadership qualities and had the support of his teammates? And do you think any of the other 6 who were "named" captain were not deserving of their leadership role?

 

[Pennick4]

Making that distinction doesn't mean you actually made a point. Why would anyone - player or coach - name Kizer a team captain if they didn't think he had leadership qualities and had the support of his teammates? And do you think any of the other 6 who were "named" captain not deserving of their leadership role?

He wasn't popular with his teammates. Sorry if that offends you snowflake.

 

[Bumpdaddy]

He wasn't popular with his teammates. Sorry if that offends you snowflake.

So now you resort to name calling. OK, you're ugly. Now back to the point you didn't make. You saying he wasn't popular with his teammates doesn't make it so. I have evidence to back up my claim. You have none, so I guess all you are left with is what? Insults? Weird that you would post to a public message board if you can't handle someone challenging your claims.

 

[Toby Smart]

He wasn't popular with his teammates. Sorry if that offends you snowflake.

All I'm trying to find out is what your sources are about DK? No big deal. This revelation is news to me and I want to read the credible sources that make that claim.

 

[Nocalirish]

If Superman was real and was a nazi we would all be speaking German. LOL

 

[Pennick4]

So now you resort to name calling. OK, you're ugly. Now back to the point you didn't make. You saying he wasn't popular with his teammates doesn't make it so. I have evidence to back up my claim. You have none, so I guess all you are left with is what? Insults? Weird that you would post to a public message board if you can't handle someone challenging your claims.

He wasn't popular with his teammates. Coach Kelly wanted him back. I wished he came back. Not that difficult to understand.
I think BK is happy with the BW. He gets them in the end zone.

 

[rgc7]

If we have to win a game by passing alone, Winbush is , at this point in time , not ready to do that,
but get a balanced offensive game going, give Wimbush protection and time to past, and he is an outstanding college QB.
This is also his first year playing and he will only get better !

 

[zonairish]

All I know is with Wimbush we are 9-2 with an incredible red zone efficiency and very few turnovers, and under Kizer last year we were the polar opposite. A million variables impacting each.

Exactly. Look @ Kizer now. I realize the Browns do not have a lot going for them overall. However, the perception of Kizer's lack of leadership and he does not seem to win with the team on his back seems to be a problem. I will take Brandon

 

[Toby Smart]

No credible sources about DK so I will go with the statements of CJ Sanders and EQ. They thought he was a great leader and they actually shared a locker room and huddle with DK.

 

[Irish Grandeur]

"Kizer had his chance last year - ND went 4 and 8."

Also had his chance the year before -- took ND to the Fiesta Bowl.....

What's your point? Kizer is not here this year and I don't think he was there (mentally/emotionally) last year. This is all speculation and if you think Kizer would do better than BW this year then state it. Otherwise, no need for a random post on my post that doesn't even state your own opinion.

 

[Telx1]

I gotta admit comments like this baffle me. I'm not picking on you because I've heard many other Irish fans share similar feelings, but I have to ask... Do you think 2016 was Kizer's fault or BK's? I know the easy response might be it was a combination of the 2 but, if so, if any of the fault belonged to BK then, in a season in which we lost 7 games by one possession, most of which the offense scored plenty of points to win while the defense let us down, doesn't the season look completely different for Kizer if BK had coached better? Would anyone have ripped on Kizer if the defense wasn't putrid and our o-line blocked better? Because, from what I saw, I think we would have won all 7 of those 1 possession games if the defense and/or o-line had been even just a little better and I don't think anyone would have found reasons to criticize Kizer.

For the record, I'm not saying the defense and o-line were the only two problems with last year's team. To me they were just the most glaring problems. As far as the rest of the problems were concerned, I see those as being a byproduct of BK's poor coaching last year. Do you see it differently? Do you think DK shares the blame?

Bump...not sure why you are so baffled. I clearly state in the second sentence that there are a million variables!

 

[Pennick4]

No credible sources about DK so I will go with the statements of CJ Sanders and EQ. They thought he was a great leader and they actually shared a locker room and huddle with DK.

Many sources.

 

[Bumpdaddy]

Bump...not sure why you are so baffled. I clearly state in the second sentence that there are a million variables!

Yeah, I get that but in the first part of your statement it certainly looked like you were trying to simplify the discussion by pointing out BW is 9-2 with better red zone efficiency and DK was 4-8 with worse RZ efficiency and turnovers. On the one hand it seemed like you were saying that BW is largely responsible for this year's record while DK was largely responsible for last year's, but on the other hand you point to "variables", so really I was looking for clarification. Do you think last year's problems were more on BK or DK? Personally, I think last year's problems are 100% attributable to BK and he has agreed. Had he coached better the defense would have been better which would have put less pressure on the offense. Had he coached better the offensive line would have performed much better which would have helped our running game which in turn would have opened up our passing game, and, of course, a better o-line would have protected DK better which would have prevented him from rushing and forcing throws. Had BK done those two things DK's numbers would have looked a lot better. So, again, the "baffling" part for me is why anyone who knows what happened last year would imply that DK was a significant part of the problem. I think anyone who thinks that must also wonder why BK bothered to make the significant changes he made in the off-season. If it was as simple as moving on to the next QB then maybe BK was out of his mind to change the coaching staff and his approach to coaching as significantly as he did. I'm not saying you were implying that but, again, I wasn't sure what you were implying so I was looking for clarification.

 

[Telx1]

Yeah, I get that but in the first part of your statement it certainly looked like you were trying to simplify the discussion by pointing out BW is 9-2 with better red zone efficiency and DK was 4-8 with worse RZ efficiency and turnovers. On the one hand it seemed like you were saying that BW is largely responsible for this year's record while DK was largely responsible for last year's, but on the other hand you point to "variables", so really I was looking for clarification. Do you think last year's problems were more on BK or DK? Personally, I think last year's problems are 100% attributable to BK and he has agreed. Had he coached better the defense would have been better which would have put less pressure on the offense. Had he coached better the offensive line would have performed much better which would have helped our running game which in turn would have opened up our passing game, and, of course, a better o-line would have protected DK better which would have prevented him from rushing and forcing throws. Had BK done those two things DK's numbers would have looked a lot better. So, again, the "baffling" part for me is why anyone who knows what happened last year would imply that DK was a significant part of the problem. I think anyone who thinks that must also wonder why BK bothered to make the significant changes he made in the off-season. If it was as simple as moving on to the next QB then maybe BK was out of his mind to change the coaching staff and his approach to coaching as significantly as he did. I'm not saying you were implying that but, again, I wasn't sure what you were implying so I was looking for clarification.

OK, I was responding to the OP and talking BW vs DK, stating factual comparisons, but acknowledging that this is too simplistic because there are so many other variables. As for who is responsible for last season, I think most of the issues with last year’s performance rest at the feet of BK, and not DK. The failure to name the starting QB in Spring, the decision to keep BVG, the poor S&C program, etc... all impacted on a terrible won loss season. That said, I personally doubt that we would own the same red zone efficiency this year with Kizer, and I believe we would have more QB related turnovers as well, largely because he would have likely thrown many more passes. Frankly, I think our record would likely be the same this year with either. But all of this is simply conjecture and we each have our opinions, none of which can be supported. These are mine.

 

[Bumpdaddy]

OK, I was responding to the OP and talking BW vs DK, stating factual comparisons, but acknowledging that this is too simplistic because there are so many other variables. As for who is responsible for last season, I think most of the issues with last year’s performance rest at the feet of BK, and not DK. The failure to name the starting QB in Spring, the decision to keep BVG, the poor S&C program, etc... all impacted on a terrible won loss season. That said, I personally doubt that we would own the same red zone efficiency this year with Kizer, and I believe we would have more QB related turnovers as well, largely because he would have likely thrown many more passes. Frankly, I think our record would likely be the same this year with either. But all of this is simply conjecture and we each have our opinions, none of which can be supported. These are mine.

I think the first part of your analysis is spot on but, while we'll never know one way or another, I mostly disagree with the 2nd part. Before this year what QB under BK hasn't had turnover problems? Before this year what QB hasn't had problems in the red zone? The QB's have changed but the problems had stayed the same until this year so, although I think BW has done a fairly good job, I think the red zone improvement and low turnovers have been more of a result of better coaching philosophy - we're actually seeing the QB under center at times near the goal line and our play calling seems to be better - and we're seeing much better o-line play which has allowed our running game to flourish even in the red zone. I think DK would have done an outstanding job with this offense. I don't think there's a game we won that we would have lost if he were the QB and I actually think DK would not have struggled against UG the way BW did. The running lanes weren't there that game but there were many open WR's that BW missed that I don't see DK missing under the same circumstances. He would have missed some throws of course. He's not perfect, but he reads defenses a lot better than BW and he isn't late to make the throws when the receivers are open. I won't say we would have beaten Miami with DK because it certainly looked like we had a collective failure that game, but I do believe BW seemed to struggle more than anyone else. I think DK would have handled the crowd much better and we would have been better offensively but it may not have been enough given the other problems in that game.

 

[spenna]

If Superman was real and was a nazi we would all be speaking German. LOL

It does not matter but I think they would have beat Georgia

 

[NDIRISH53]

That's what I want to know. How d

Hardly speculated by who?

BK said something recently about how he didn't put the right leaders in place. He was the qb of the team, and off season weight lifting was basically optional, they were also 4-8. That warrants speculation about his leadership.

 

[Toby Smart]

And yet, in August of this year, BK said that DK should have remained at ND for another year. Interesting that a HC would want a player who was not well liked to return to the program for another year. BK never mentioned any names who were, and who were not the "right" leaders. It's all speculation and gossip by some fans. Anyway, not being a team leader doesn't translate to not being well liked by his team mates. Who knows, he might have been selected if he had returned. I will take the words of a couple players who are actually involved with the program.