Oursider's View

[beachcardinal]

I would hope you would consider that all but two teams in the nation would gladly change places with ND. Kelly has been in a national championship game and in a final for in not that long a time. And from an outsider's view, you can complain about the coaching but Clemson was just a superior teams and quite evidently so, from my view.

 

[Toby Smart]

What slays me is BKs post game saying that he needs to do a better job coaching. I kind of thought he already was coaching the best he can now. Was he holding back or something? There are a few reasons why the Irish lost but it's not the loss that is aggravating. It's the way they lost.

 

[beachcardinal]

What slays me is BKs post game saying that he needs to do a better job coaching. I kind of thought he already was coaching the best he can now. Was he holding back or something? There are a few reasons why the Irish lost but it's not the loss that is aggravating. It's the way they lost.

My guess is that he was just accepting responsibility as a coach should. Do you really think it was play calling or lack or preparation? It looked to me like the Clemson players were simply much better.

 

[Toby Smart]

Well, the Clemson players are better. But this much better? From our very first offensive series, the kids looked tight, nervous. I don't know if the team was well prepared and just didn't execute or if the staff just didn't execute a game plan themselves, complete with a back up plan. Losing one player and all hell breaks loose. Reviews that went against the Irish all night. It was a Tsunami of bad breaks and bad play and bad game planning. Apparently, at this level, stars do matter.

 

[Shakin' Down the Thunder]

I would hope you would consider that all but two teams in the nation would gladly change places with ND. Kelly has been in a national championship game and in a final for in not that long a time. And from an outsider's view, you can complain about the coaching but Clemson was just a superior teams and quite evidently so, from my view.

Funny you say that. Was talking with my a buddy of mine (SC fan by the way) and told him that even if ND were to get embarrassed in the playoffs, I'd be very thankful for the undefeated regular season. Makes watching ND football that much more enjoyable. After all, I'm just a fan.

 

[beachcardinal]

Well, the Clemson players are better. But this much better? From our very first offensive series, the kids looked tight, nervous. I don't know if the team was well prepared and just didn't execute or if the staff just didn't execute a game plan themselves, complete with a back up plan. Losing one player and all hell breaks loose. Reviews that went against the Irish all night. It was a Tsunami of bad breaks and bad play and bad game planning. Apparently, at this level, stars do matter.

Look, you know your team better than I but you made to the top four in the nation. It is hard to look at that as a failure.

 

[Toby Smart]

I brought that up yesterday. I don't care what the fans think, but do the players consider this season a failure because the way it ended? If you are in it, you may as well win it. The players might say all the right things in public, but what are they saying in private?

 

[irish4life888]

I would hope you would consider that all but two teams in the nation would gladly change places with ND. Kelly has been in a national championship game and in a final for in not that long a time. And from an outsider's view, you can complain about the coaching but Clemson was just a superior teams and quite evidently so, from my view.

It was quite clear in all facets. Coaching, athletes, game plan, and preparation. I wasn't expecting a win, but thought we would at least be competitive

 

[notredamerises23]

I would hope you would consider that all but two teams in the nation would gladly change places with ND. Kelly has been in a national championship game and in a final for in not that long a time. And from an outsider's view, you can complain about the coaching but Clemson was just a superior teams and quite evidently so, from my view.

There was a reason Clemson was a 12 to 14 point favorite. Vegas gave us a 15%to 17% chance to win. We play 10 times and they win 8 times. The Tigers were just a superior team. People here didn’t want to accept that and kept talking about “Clemson didn’t play anybody, who did they dominate?” etc. Every statistical model had us, on average, 10 points worse than Alabama, Clemson, and Georgia.

Now with, bettter execution we play a closer game, but the stronger, better team that would win most of the time against us won.

Additionally, the extra practices benefitted the younger players of Clemson (most of their 4 and 5 star talent are freshmen and sophomores) more than our experienced players. Lawrence benefitted the most. He continually got better this year, but he was another level yesterday.

 

[beachcardinal]

There was a reason Clemson was a 12 to 14 point favorite. Vegas gave us a 15%to 17% chance to win. We play 10 times and they win 8 times. The Tigers were just a superior team. People here didn’t want to accept that and kept talking about “Clemson didn’t play anybody, who did they dominate?” etc. Every statistical model had us, on average, 10 points worse than Alabama, Clemson, and Georgia.

Now with, bettter execution we play a closer game, but the stronger, better team that would win most of the time against us won.

Additionally, the extra practices benefitted the younger players of Clemson (most of their 4 and 5 star talent are freshmen and sophomores) more than our experienced players. Lawrence benefitted the most. He continually got better this year, but he was another level yesterday.

This seems to me to be extremely accurate and well thought out.

 

[irish4life888]

There was a reason Clemson was a 12 to 14 point favorite. Vegas gave us a 15%to 17% chance to win. We play 10 times and they win 8 times. The Tigers were just a superior team. People here didn’t want to accept that and kept talking about “Clemson didn’t play anybody, who did they dominate?” etc. Every statistical model had us, on average, 10 points worse than Alabama, Clemson, and Georgia.

Now with, bettter execution we play a closer game, but the stronger, better team that would win most of the time against us won.

Additionally, the extra practices benefitted the younger players of Clemson (most of their 4 and 5 star talent are freshmen and sophomores) more than our experienced players. Lawrence benefitted the most. He continually got better this year, but he was another level yesterday.

Kudos on this, I agree with beach. Well done.

 

[notredamerises23]

This seems to me to be extremely accurate and well thought out.

Coaching or lack thereof does not and will not ever equate to being a 14 point dog. It matters, but not 14 points worth. I think people working in industry today understand how important data is. In my line of work, if I go into a meeting without data to support my argument, I’m blown the hell out of the room. When every single one of the statistical models says we’re a 10 point dog and gives us at best a 20% chance to win, well, I know it’s probably not going to go well.

Yesterday was disheartening. I watched with my brother (also an alum) and we felt in the second quarter that on every down (second quarter onwards) was us trying to hang on, make a play when there was no space to run or cstch balls, get a push against their OLine and pressure Lawrence who was making NO mistakes and looking like an NFL QB throwing 60 MPH outs.

We felt the players felt overmatched and gave up as Clemson backups come in and shoved us around.

Not sure where to go from here because we’ve maxed out our model. The Alabama, Ohio State, Clemson, Georgia football factories with their talent that may or may not actually go to class are hard as hell to defeat with their depth of talent thsts rested and coming off of all those practices.

 

[chitown sot]

My guess is that he was just accepting responsibility as a coach should. Do you really think it was play calling or lack or preparation? It looked to me like the Clemson players were simply much better.

Yes, Yes, and yes.
Chip long and his play calling were a joke, absolutely terrible. I can't believe this coaching staff had 5 weks of preparation and they came up with this. Clemsons coaching was better, they made adjustments, ND coaches had no answers for anything. An all around fricking TURD of a game. The kind of game that ND fans have come accustomed to in the BK regime. A complete debacle

 

[hoopsstar12]

Going for it on 4th down in 1st qtr and the idiot play gave Clemson the spark they needed. Our offense did nothing. Allowing end of half drive then Etienne run would have not happened with smarter higher quality coaches. Wimbush should have been inserted to run and spark offense and keep D honest. Blitzing Book every down was 2 easy. Losing fumble recovery, Alize Mack BS call and Love injury was 2 much for a fragile team.

 

[chitown sot]

There was a reason Clemson was a 12 to 14 point favorite. Vegas gave us a 15%to 17% chance to win. We play 10 times and they win 8 times. The Tigers were just a superior team. People here didn’t want to accept that and kept talking about “Clemson didn’t play anybody, who did they dominate?” etc. Every statistical model had us, on average, 10 points worse than Alabama, Clemson, and Georgia.

Now with, bettter execution we play a closer game, but the stronger, better team that would win most of the time against us won.

Additionally, the extra practices benefitted the younger players of Clemson (most of their 4 and 5 star talent are freshmen and sophomores) more than our experienced players. Lawrence benefitted the most. He continually got better this year, but he was another level yesterday.

Another bk apologist. Quit making sorry ass excuses

 

[napy2121]

Beach, I was pretty pissed off about yesterday but big picture the program has a strong foundation. I feel good about our short to intermediate future. On a micro level I do think some tough conversations need to be had. Here are a few things I’ve been chewing on I hope BK is consulting on with his staff:

1. Our qb situation. It took guts to supplant wimbush for book. I wonder if book needs further development or if we see his ceiling and know we can win but not be elite. We scored jurkovic and by all accounts he’s the best qb we’ve recruited under Bk. Does he have a championship level ceiling? I honestly don’t know, but if the answer is he’s not ready, then I ask... when do we get a guy at qb that is so good that it’s clear? Why can’t a place like ND get that guy?

2. We should have developed a speed guy at wr this year. We relied on our tall guys but struggled to get separation. Why didn’t we get a speed guy involved at some point knowing Clemson was coming?

3. Oline disappointed a bit this year after Bars went down. Was this coaching, lack of experience? Was Clemson that much better? I think Clemson was better but our Oline is our best recruited position. What happened here?

4. On d I worry about depth. Our starters are fine, but we lost love and the drop was noticeable. I also noticed Clemson linebackers were speed guys that were former safeties yet still ran like safeties. When we did that with tranquil we got a very good player, but he still wasn’t an elite sideline to sideline speed guy. Why can’t we get a true sideline to sideline guy?

Idk man. I guess I had to vent and this wasn’t a direct response. I guess like I said, I’m happy where the program is at, but if we have to take the next step... these questions should be asked. I certainly am not pretending to know the answers either. Anyhow thanks for sharing your perspective.

 

[chitown sot]

Going for it on 4th down in 1st qtr and the idiot play gave Clemson the spark they needed. Our offense did nothing. Allowing end of half drive then Etienne run would have not happened with smarter higher quality coaches. Wimbush should have been inserted to run and spark offense and keep D honest. Blitzing Book every down was 2 easy. Losing fumble recovery. Alize Mack BS call and Love was 2 much for a fragile team.

Yeah, the 3rd and two at clemsons 35-37 yard line in the first half and throwing two long stupid passes made absolutely no sense. If ANY time you should run the fricking ball it was then. Get the GD first down and go from there. Absolute stupidity, was Chip smoking crack friday night? Why not put Winbush in there for a few plays to mix things up? Its bk in his hard headedness not doing what should be done. (bk thinking "hes leaving the program so hes not playing"). Book absolutely sucked all game long, why in the fuKK would you not put winbush in there and mix things up. This coaching staff sucked as we know they always do with bk in charge during big games

 

[notredamerises23]

Another bk apologist. Quit making sorry ass excuses

Based on your posts that I've read, you do not possess the intellectual capacity to understand the argument I’m making.

 

[Quest4Twelve]

Beach - you think Kingsbury will politic for the Houston job?

 

[Leahylads]

The players are a reflection of the head coach. If the players were not good enough to beat Clem it is because of Kelly. 4-8 coaches dont get great recruits.

 

[iwish]

My guess is that he was just accepting responsibility as a coach should. Do you really think it was play calling or lack or preparation? It looked to me like the Clemson players were simply much better.

Exactly - people need to realize that he has done a great job and was simply ensuring they stayed away from criticizing specific players and coaches.

 

[d1042]

beach

If SC loses KK to UH, that is on Swann. He should have gotten the HC spot. KK can do much better than 2nd fiddle to Clueless Clay!

 

[beachcardinal]

beach

If SC loses KK to UH, that is on Swann. He should have gotten the HC spot. KK can do much better than 2nd fiddle to Clueless Clay!

That would be funny, but unlikely. KK took the job because he knows Clay is an idiot. Swann wouldn't make him coach in waiting but committed to him that he would be a candidate. With the Miami job now filled I doubt Houston can make an offer better than the chance of getting the SC job in 10 months.

 

[HarlemIrish]

Look, you know your team better than I but you made to the top four in the nation. It is hard to look at that as a failure.

Are they really top 4?

 

[deadirishpoet]

I would hope you would consider that all but two teams in the nation would gladly change places with ND. Kelly has been in a national championship game and in a final for in not that long a time. And from an outsider's view, you can complain about the coaching but Clemson was just a superior teams and quite evidently so, from my view.

I watched Clemson quite a few times this year and they were not anymore superior then ND was during the season

 

[beachcardinal]

Are they really top 4?

ND was selected so I guess that by how cfb measures it ND was.

 

[beachcardinal]

I watched Clemson quite a few times this year and they were not anymore superior then ND was during the season

Completely disagree. Clemson looked much better, Hence the spread.

 

[HarlemIrish]

I watched Clemson quite a few times this year and they were not anymore superior then ND was during the season

Teams play up to occasions. Syracuse seems to have their number but Cuse isn’t better then Clemson. Is Purdue better then Ohio St?

 

[HarlemIrish]

ND was selected so I guess that by how cfb measures it ND was.

Haha. I say this as a ND diehard fan. Georgia Ohio St Clemson & Bama. That would make for some competitive football

 

[notredamerises23]

I watched Clemson quite a few times this year and they were not anymore superior then ND was during the season

This isn’t 1987 anymore—why do you refuse to look at the statistical models now available? What we see with our eyes on limited plays cannot compare with statistical models that look at EVERY DOWN PLAYED, against every team, those teams’ relative strengths, while filtering out garbage time. 12-0, 12-1, 11-1...whatever...doesn’t matter.

EVERY statistical model said that Clemson was 8 to 16 points better than we were on average. Why do you think Vegas had us at a 12 to 14 point underdogs and gave us a 15% to 17% chance to win? If two teams were about the same, Vegas wouldn’t make us a 14 point dog,

There was a whole another tier between us and Clemson.

We’d be underdogs against Alabama, Clemson, Georgia, Oklahoma (CFP odds show that we’d be 3.5 or so dogs to them) , and Ohio State.

 

[deadirishpoet]

There was a reason Clemson was a 12 to 14 point favorite. Vegas gave us a 15%to 17% chance to win. We play 10 times and they win 8 times. The Tigers were just a superior team. People here didn’t want to accept that and kept talking about “Clemson didn’t play anybody, who did they dominate?” etc. Every statistical model had us, on average, 10 points worse than Alabama, Clemson, and Georgia.

Now with, bettter execution we play a closer game, but the stronger, better team that would win most of the time against us won.

Additionally, the extra practices benefitted the younger players of Clemson (most of their 4 and 5 star talent are freshmen and sophomores) more than our experienced players. Lawrence benefitted the most. He continually got better this year, but he was another level yesterday.

Not to mention being comfortable being there before.

Now I don't believe they were 30 points better because they could of put up 50 if the Clemson head coach wanted to.

Out played yes .....head and shoulders superior I dont believe so.
Remember ND played Clemson very close the 2 previous meetings and those teams were just as good as this team.

They got the Irish down and took their spirit...that's what I seen.
Brian Kelly couldn't figure out how to control the clock as Clemson was starting to build confidence to give the defense a break. Such is the downfall of playing with this type of offense
jmo

 

[notredamerises23]

Not to mention being comfortable being there before.

Now I don't believe they were 30 points better because they could of put up 50 if the Clemson head coach wanted to.

Out played yes .....head and shoulders superior I dont believe do.
Remember ND played Clemson very close the 2 previous meetings and those teams were just as good as this team.

They got the Irish down and took their spirit...that's what I seen.
Brian Kelly couldn't figure out how to control the clock as Clemson was starting to build confidence to give the defense a break. Such is the downfall of playing with this type of offense
jmo

Not fumbling on the second drive, getting a few first downs, winning a jumpball would have made a difference.

But when a team is 12-0 and another is 12-1 and yet the teammwith one loss is statistically given an 83% to 85% chance to win by Vegas, well, then they ARE head and shoulders better. Vegas would never make two one of two “equal teams” a 14point underdog—it’s never happened.

Give that better team with superior talent time to practice for weeks for one team and develop young guys (whom we saw making plays like winning jump balls, getting into the backfield, etc.), and you get what we saw. As an additional special factor, you have the makings of a franchise NFL QB getting better and better and getting to learn schemes over a long period of practice.

 

[deadirishpoet]

Completely disagree. Clemson looked much better, Hence the spread.

Against common opponents your arguement falls short

 

[notredamerises23]

Against common opponents your arguement falls short

No, it doesn’t. You’re looking at final scores that don’t tell the entire story.

 

[deadirishpoet]

Not fumbling on the second drive, getting a few first downs, winning a jumpball would have made a difference.

But when a team is 12-0 and another is 12-1 and yet the teammwith one loss is statistically given an 83% to 85% chance to win by Vegas, well, then they ARE head and shoulders better. Vegas would never make two one of two “equal teams” a 14point underdog, it’s never happened.

Give that better team with superior talent time to practice for weeks for one team and develop young guys (whom we saw making plays like winning jump balls, getting into the backfield, etc.), and you get what we saw. As an additional special factor, you have the makings of a franchise NFL QB getting better and better and getting to learn schemes over a long period of practice.

Do you think any of that had to do with Brian Kelly's performance in big games compared to Dabo Swinney?

 

[Shulkswagen]

This isn’t 1987 anymore—why do you refuse to look at the statistical models now available? What we see with our eyes on limited plays cannot compare with statistical models that look at EVERY DOWN PLAYED, against every team, those teams’ relative strengths, while filtering out garbage time, 12-0, 12-1, 11-1...whatever...doesn’t matter.

EVERY statistical model said that Clemson was 8 to 16 points better than we were on average. Why do you think Vegas had us at a 12 to 14 point underdog, gave us a 15% to 17% chance to win? If two teams were about the same, Vegas wouldn’t make us a 14 point dog,

There was a whole another tier between us and Clemson.

We’d be underdogs against Alabama, Clemson, Georgia, Oklahoma (CFP odds show that we’d be 3.5 or so dogs to them) , and Ohio State.

Statistics are like bikinis what they reveal is interesting but what they conceal is vital.

 

[deadirishpoet]

No, it doesn’t. You’re looking at final scores that don’t tell the entire story.

What's the entire story then?

 

[HarlemIrish]

Do you think any of that had to do with Brian Kelly's performance in big games compared to Dabo Swinney?

DIP, Irish didn’t belong. We were -12-13 then heavy cash dragged it to -10.5. That’s a very telling sign we were in for a long night

 

[notredamerises23]

Do you think any of that had to do with Brian Kelly's performance in big games compared to Dabo Swinney?

What do you mean “all that”? When statistical models looked at every down played by both teams, they said that Clemson was between 8 to 16 points better on average and that we’d win 15 out of every 100 games. They were massive favorites.

We didn’t have a great game, but it wasn’t primarily because of “Kelly’s performance.” We were overmatched and people knew it.

 

[deadirishpoet]

DIP, Irish didn’t belong. We were -12-13 then heavy cash dragged it to -10.5. That’s a very telling sign we were in for a long night

Hum

8 years into a program and Vagas says Brian Kelly team didnt belong with a 12 -0 record....is that what I'm hearing