Notre Dame Being Overrated Is A Tired Trope, But It's Not Going Away Until ND Earns Big Game Wins
Until Notre Dame starts winning the big games it will continue receiving unwarranted mockery from the media
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Notre Dame Being Overrated Is A Tired Trope, But It's Not Going Away Until ND Earns Big Game Wins
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Rather inaccurate as usual for any so called media crap
Over rated means not living up to what is expected.
Show me where ND has truly failed in that way.
Have we been favored to win the NC any time in the last 20 years or so?
The most that can be said is that we might not have made it to the playoffs as often as some might have thought we should; but that is very arguable.
There are quite a few teams that seem NOT to get that label despite earning it: for example until they finally broke through Georgia had consistently failed to win a NC even when many expected them to. But no one called them over rated.
Clemson for example failed several times when thought to be right there.
Now it is true that ND only has made it to the NC game once in that time period and did not play well. But then a lot of teams made it to the NC and got splattered.
It is the usual crap that ND gets from the media and others; they never hold other teams to the standard the claim to hold ND to.
Over rated means not living up to what is expected.
Show me where ND has truly failed in that way.
Have we been favored to win the NC any time in the last 20 years or so?
The most that can be said is that we might not have made it to the playoffs as often as some might have thought we should; but that is very arguable.
There are quite a few teams that seem NOT to get that label despite earning it: for example until they finally broke through Georgia had consistently failed to win a NC even when many expected them to. But no one called them over rated.
Clemson for example failed several times when thought to be right there.
Now it is true that ND only has made it to the NC game once in that time period and did not play well. But then a lot of teams made it to the NC and got splattered.
It is the usual crap that ND gets from the media and others; they never hold other teams to the standard the claim to hold ND to.
Here are the best winning percentages against AP Top 25 since 2010:
10. (tie) Boise State - 10-10
Notre Dame 23-23
TCU - 21-21 (.500)
Not saying overrated at all, just posting these facts.
- Alabama - 60-15 (.800)
- Ohio State - 39-12 (.765)
- Oklahoma - 39-19 (.672)
- LSU - 43-24 (.642)
- Clemson - 33-19 (.635)
- Oregon - 28-19 (.596)
- Stanford - 31-23 (.574)
- Oklahoma State - 29-24 (.547)
- Georgia - 31-28 (.525)
10. (tie) Boise State - 10-10
Notre Dame 23-23
TCU - 21-21 (.500)
Not saying overrated at all, just posting these facts.
OF course how many of those Top 25 wins were legitimate; in other words were THOSE teams ranked in the Top 25 at the end of the season?
and why don't you show playoff and BCS wins/losses?
Legitimate, Oh i see, it's just what suites your parameters.
Wouldn't playoff and BCS/NY6 games make Notre Dames record look even more terrible?
When was the last time ND beat Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State and/ or Clemson (Can't count 2020 regular season because Clemson didn't have their starting QB, Trevor Lawrence)? Until we can beat one of the elite 4, we will continue to be over-rated. We don't even play in conference championship games and still get throttled by the elite. There will be 2 opportunities this year against OSU and Clemson. Tired of being over-rated, WIN!
Since 2000:
ND vs Alabama: 0-2 Average score: 36.5 to 14
ND vs Ohio State: 0-2 Average score: 39 to 24
ND vs Georgia: 0-2 Average score: 21.5 to 18
ND vs Clemson: 0-3 Average score: 29.3 to 11.7
Since 2000:
ND vs Alabama: 0-2 Average score: 36.5 to 14
ND vs Ohio State: 0-2 Average score: 39 to 24
ND vs Georgia: 0-2 Average score: 21.5 to 18
ND vs Clemson: 0-3 Average score: 29.3 to 11.7
Look no doubt Bama has been a juggernaut, but let's not pretend about 15 of those wins are from overrated sec teams that are propped up for them to slaughter... Looking at those too 10 ms St teams, the ole miss teams, the Auburn teams... Somehow a lot of mediocre sec teams get their highest ranking the week before they play Bama....
When was the last time Stanford, Oregon, Okie State, Okie, Boise played them and won? Yet they are represented in this information?
it’s hilarious.
??? We're talking about ND vs elite programs. ND's objective each year is to win a national championship. My point is that there's been a big gap between ND and the elites and if people are tired of hearing ND is over-rated, we need to win in elite match ups. Who gives a flying f about Stanford, Oregon, Okie State etc...?
Just win baby!!!Notre Dame Being Overrated Is A Tired Trope, But It's Not Going Away Until ND Earns Big Game Wins
Until Notre Dame starts winning the big games it will continue receiving unwarranted mockery from the media
Shaw has one of the best records vs ranked and top 10 teams of any active coach. And they actually do shop down another aisle. A lot better then Beauregard‘s record
Because the initial post, to which you piled on, listed ND 10th against top 25
you bringing the idea to the board that ND hasn’t beaten Bama, Clemson or OSU on the last 15 years is like saying water is wet
when ND has played those teams, they have been pitted against the best team in all those years…3 champions and a team that had 15 first round picks over the next 4 years
I am not worried about ND being overrated or not. They are the only team that I care about.
Good stuff, but allow me a DEEPER DIVE:
ND vs. Premier Competition
All-Time Record against Top-25 Teams at the Time of the Game
Numbers are from 1936 forward when Polls were first introduced.
Wins – 162
Losses – 150
Ties – 10
Winning Percentage: 51.8%
By Coach by Winning Percentage vs. 1) Top 25 Teams 2) Overall Opponents and 3) the Difference between Those Two Percentages
Leahy
27-4-4. 79.5%. Overall: 85.5%. Differential: (6.0).
Holtz
33-19-2. 63.0%. Overall: 76.5%. Differential: (13.5).
Devine
17-10-0. 63.0%. Overall: 76.4%. Differential: (13.4).
McKeever
3-2. 60.0%. Overall: 80.0%. Differential: (20.0).
Parseghian
14-11-3. 54.8%. Overall: 83.6%. Differential: (28.8)
Kelly
23-23-0. 50.0%. Overall: 73.9%. Differential (23.9)
Layden (first two years not included as there was no polling)
5-5-0. 50.0%. Overall: 77.0%. Differential: (27.0)
Brennan
12-13-0. 48.0%. Overall: 64.0%. Differential: (16.0)
Willingham
7-8-0. 46.7%. Overall: 58.3%. Differential: (11.6)
Faust
7-14-0. 33.0%. Overall: 53.5%. Differential: (20.5)
Davie
6-15-0. 28.6%. Overall: 58.3%. Differential: (29.7)
Weis
4-12-0. 25%. Overall: 56.5%. Differential: (31.5)
Kuharich
3-9-0. 25%. Overall: 42.5%. Differential: (17.5)
Devore
1-5-1. 25%. Overall: 50.0%. Differential: (25.0)
Some notable points in no way exhaustive but which struck me immediately from a quick glance at the data:
- ND has historically been a 50/50 team when playing top teams as determined by where those teams stood at the time the games were played.
- ND’s three top coaches against top competition have been Leahy, Holtz and Devine. Without their success rates, ND would be well under water against top teams.
- Only a few points separate how well Parseghian, Kelly and Layden, on one hand, have done against tougher competition and, on the other, how Brennan and Willingham have done.
- The differential number which represents the difference between how much worse a given coach has done against better competition shows the best performers – those with the lowest scores – to be Leahy, Devine, Holtz and Willingham.
- Those coaches with the worst differentials, i.e. the highest scores, include Weis, Davie, Parseghian and Layden.
- Kelly performed just a shade below ND’s historical average against better teams, but his differential number was materially below the mean. Which means that while he didn't DO ANY WORSE AGAINST BETTER TEAMS THAN ND ITSELF HAS OVER TIME, HE DID DO POORER AGAINST THEM THAN ALL ND COACHES HAVE ON AVERAGE. It wasn't a train wreck, but it wasn't very good. YET, HE WASN'T FAR BEHIND PARSEGHIAN AND HE DID HAVE A LOWER DIFFERENTIAL.
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What is inaccurate?
Did you read the article in it's entirety?
This isn't merely just wins but the game within the game. In other words the performance on the field against top competition.
Since Holtz we've done extremely piss poor against top competition.
Let's just look at the last dozen years....
Brian Kelly had some moments in the regular season that were close. Both Georgia games....@ Florida State against Winston and company which was his best coached game IMO. He was momey with the play calling. Everything was right. Still just couldn't get the win though.
There were a few other close games in the regular season like @ Clemson (Watson's Junior year) and such...
But the real problem and most glaring is when there is a month to prepare it's a blowout loss. When coaching really comes to the forefront....our sideline has been ridiculously inferior to the other sideline.
It was a real pleasant surprise that we nearly won a major bowl game against OkSU 8 months ago. We haven't been that close in a major bowl since 1996 against FSU with Tom Krug as the QB for an injured Powlus.
That's pretty damn pathetic. 28 years since a Major Bowl win?
C'mon...with most of the results being utterly embarrassing.
The article is 101 percent spot on. MF can do this two ways. Either get better talent than the other guy or be a better coach than the other sideline.
If he can do both I give you a run like Tom Osborne, Pete Caroll, Saban and Holtz had.
We shall see but make no mistake it's long overdue to start winning more top stage games.
P.s.
Do NOT bring up the Clemson win in a weird covid year with the #2 QB.
If that's what you hang your hat on it's pretty pathetic considering that's all ya got.
End of the season rankings are also garbage, that #1 Clemson team you best is now a #7 win. The win by default knocks them down. Defeats can also crumble a team and start their slide. No accurate way to judge this.
Over rated means not living up to what is expected.
Show me where ND has truly failed in that way.
"Every big game game BK coached in"
Show me where ND has truly failed in that way.
"Every big game game BK coached in"
Garbage.Notre Dame Being Overrated Is A Tired Trope, But It's Not Going Away Until ND Earns Big Game Wins
Until Notre Dame starts winning the big games it will continue receiving unwarranted mockery from the media
Since the BCS era, aside from a few cinderella type seasons by various programs, who has beaten Alabama, OSU, Clemson, or Georgia with any regularity?
My problem with Notre Dame isn't so much they lose these big games, its how badly they lose them. I am truly hopeful it was a HC issue as I've always felt Kelly was a piss poor big game coach. All in all, ND needs to start winning a few of these games against the top tier teams.
My problem with Notre Dame isn't so much they lose these big games, its how badly they lose them. I am truly hopeful it was a HC issue as I've always felt Kelly was a piss poor big game coach. All in all, ND needs to start winning a few of these games against the top tier teams.
Parseghian record surprises me , thought his schedules were harder then that and a better record vs top 25
2012 we were the #1 team in the country and along with T‘eo still having Eddie lacy nightmares. That game certainly didn’t live up to my expectations
They're all big games.
Notre Dame owns the longest winning streak in CFB against unranked teams. If that streak was so easy, everyone would do this.
This is not mentioned by some because it does not fit their narratiive.
Ok? Is this like being the smartest kid on the short bus?
What exactly is your point? Last I checked nobody (aside from perhaps you) cares about some winning streak against non ranked opponents. That can also say that ND, albeit by sheer luck or bad luck, had too many unranked teams on their schedule.
Moreover I've never heard anyone in all my years involved with the game (many) and out of the game as an observant celebrating successful average. That's what you're talking about here is that Notre Dame has done the absolute bare minimum it should be doing, right? So you are celebrating meeting the bare minimum expectation while most people I'd say would like to reach and accomplish things just a bit higher.
This article is spot on and to help you out Allow me to give you an example of a Sugar Bowl matchup against a very good Florida team. We had no business being there and people said as much. What happened? Lou did his thing and we physically made the Florida line succumb to our will.
Games like that are exactly what this article is speaking of and quite honestly has been missing since Lou Holtz.
And that's the ultimate point.
Think about this if you will...
Most of Brian Kelly's marquee regular season games against a top 5 were all fairly close. Both Georgia games...@ FSU.... etc.
Yet oddly he still managed to lose ALL of those ( excluding weird covid season)
..
But they were close.
With a month to prepare it's been a bloodbath. Always! His entire career. Cincinnati or ND he's been doninated in those major bowl games or playoff games.
In other words we aren't even in a position to win. A fortuitous call..bad bounce...anything like that and it could give a victory in a closely contested game.
His teams were miles from reaping any fortuitous benefit in thosr games. All of them! It's almost like you have to try to be that imperfectly perfect.
Kind of bizarre isn't it
Amazing what you learn when you read beyond headlines. Ara was a great coach who had 3 tough games per year - USC, MSU or Purdue, Pitt or flavor of the year
BUT he excelled at most of his big bowl games (Bama and Texas ), did get killed by Nebraska and USC (a few times)
There was a poster on here who argued with me that Ara was leaps and bounds better than Holtz. I showed him that Ara's toughest schedule was right in line with Lou's weakest schedule. The rest of Ara's schedules were very weak compared to the gauntlet schedules Holtz had.
I was looking at his schedules yesterday and you’re spot on. In 11 years he only played against 28 top 25 teams—-very weak. Chris Rus so, somewhat of a clown, named Ara greatest coach of all time. Pretty ridiculous
Ara was a tremendous person. I don't know anyone who disliked him nor how anyone could ever dislike the guy.
With that said we all know how personality appeal or disdain can affect an overall perception.
I remember those Ara teams very well.
A few points:
- NOT ONE RANKED OPPONENT in his inaugural 64 9-1 season. Not even USC which beat ND at the buzzer in the season finale.
- All of his 17 losses but four were to USC, Purdue and MSU and in 11 of those 13 losses, those three teams were ranked.
- Three of the remaining four losses were to ranked teams: LSU, Texas and Nebraska. The other loss was at home to an unranked Missouri team, which, I believe, was a 30+ point underdog.
- A number of Big 10 teams which had either begun to give Leahy trouble and/or had completely DOMINATED Brennan, Kuharich and Devore, such as Iowa, NW, and Wisconsin SUDDENLY BECAME BEATABLE. ND also handled Illinois easily under Ara. And, of course, ND didn’t play UM or OSU then.
- So, essentially, Ara had two sure tough games a year – Purdue and USC -- with MSU, which had faded a bit, being replaced as the potential third tough one after 69 by whatever the bowl game turned out to be. And in bowl games Ara went only 2-2.
- Also, teams that HAD BEEN HIGHLY RANKED in the years immediately prior to ARA being hired DECLINED both PRECIPTATELY AND PRECIPTIOUSLY. For instance, Army, Navy, Pitt and Oklahoma (which ND SKUNKED TWICE under Ara). Pitt started coming back just as Ara was exiting.
- As for the other teams Ara played, Miami wasn’t there yet; AF, Cal, Stanford UCLA, GT, Tulane, TCU, Rice, NC and Duke were usually quite beatable; while at the same time, there were no PSU’s, Syracuse’s or WV’s on the schedule.
- Don’t get me wrong. I respected Ara like no other coach I’ve followed, but I’ve always believed that, COMPETITION-WISE, HE LUCKED OUT, CATCHING THE ND WAVE JUST AS IT WAS RISING, even as other programs were at that moment either IN DECLINE or below ND's level.
One final note.
3 of Ara's 4 ties were also against ranked teams: USC twice and MSU.
They weren't losses. But they weren't wins either.
Ironically, though, when you're doing won-loss percentages, you count a tie as BOTH a win and a loss.
Bryan Driskell is such an 'effing turd. And he's embarrassing himself, on various podcasts in the CFB media ecosystem, wildly and pretty incoherently bashing BK, and making all of the ND fan universe look like psychos by association. He's certainly a fair enough stand-in for the online fanbase at large. If we take a big step backwards this year the whole CFB world is going to come down on ND. We have to go at least 9-3, or the wolves will be at the door....
