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ND Football was deliberately derailed...

I was at the Commerce Casino Friday night and saw a bit of that HS game. I mentioned to my Dad a few weeks ago- why the hell isn't ND recruiting the Catholic schools in CA? My goodness I can't stop shaking my head at the fact ND is coached by this purple face.
We recruit the catholic schools in California pretty heavily. That doesn't mean many of those kids want to come to northern Indiana. We don't just pick and choose who we want.
 
So Maryland didn't beat MSU yesterday? MSU is as bad as ND this year . Only difference is that we have a veteran QB and more talent. Kelly, as horrible as he is, owns Dantonio outside of Little Giant and this year. Only team to beat them in 2013. Kelly needs to go, but you need to wake up if you think Mark doesn't lose to teams he shouldn't. What's their record?

The talent gap between ND and Mich ST. based off recru
So Maryland didn't beat MSU yesterday? MSU is as bad as ND this year . Only difference is that we have a veteran QB and more talent. Kelly, as horrible as he is, owns Dantonio outside of Little Giant and this year. Only team to beat them in 2013. Kelly needs to go, but you need to wake up if you think Mark doesn't lose to teams he shouldn't. What's their record?

The simple fact is that ND has had significant higher rated recruiting classes every year over Michigan St. - yet M.D'Antonio has found a way to beat BK twice with a much less talented squad.

Quit making excuses for BK. M.D. is and always will be a much better coach than BK.
 
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Bunny
Well stated. I just don't understand why some ND fans don't see the difference? Beat scUM in 2011, and Stanford last year + a major bowl win by now and none of us are complaining about one down year.
BS!
 
A previous poster tried to explain away Kelly's failures by saying that holtz lost to afa, nwestern & Stanford. I'm no holtz lover but give me a break. When Kelly racks up big wins as holtz did regularly, and wins a title (& gets robbed out of another), then the analogy would work. Until then, it's just hot air that reeks of someone trying to bolster their position that Kelly hasn't failed. It's like trying to convince us that Hillary isn't corrupt. It's uninformed.
 
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A previous poster tried to explain away Kelly's failures by saying that holtz lost to afa, nwestern & Stanford. I'm no holtz lover but give me a break. When Kelly racks up big wins as holtz did regularly, and wins a title (& gets robbed out of another), then the analogy would work. Until then, it's just hot air that reeks of someone trying to bolster their position that Kelly hasn't failed. It's like trying to convince us that Hillary isn't corrupt. It's uninformed.

You obviously didn't comprehend my post and the post I was responding to. The prior poster cited losses to Northwestern, Navy and Stanford as de facto proof of incompetence. That's simply not the case.
 
So Maryland didn't beat MSU yesterday? MSU is as bad as ND this year . Only difference is that we have a veteran QB and more talent. Kelly, as horrible as he is, owns Dantonio outside of Little Giant and this year. Only team to beat them in 2013. Kelly needs to go, but you need to wake up if you think Mark doesn't lose to teams he shouldn't. What's their record?

Nothing frustrates me more than when someone tries to defend Kelly by pointing to a single game or single season as to why BK is on par with a coach like Shaw or Dantonio. Every coach or player has a bad game or season, this is about the continual failures not a single game or season.

It’s about Losses to teams like; Navy, Tulsa, S. Fla, Pitt, ASU and NW. Not to mention losses to some of the worst UM teams I have seen in 30 years.

It’s about watching every QB under Kelly regress.

It’s about 4 mediocre seasons and 1 horrific season in 7 years.

It’s about having a putrid RZ offense for 7 straight years.

It’s about not being able to get both sides of the ball playing good football in any season. If the defense is good the offense sucks. If the offense is good the defense sucks. Look at this year, the defense was atrocious and the offense was putting up points, now that the defense is showing life the offense is bad.

It’s about only 2 big wins in 7 years.

It’s about getting completely dominated and embarrassed against O$U and Bama in our only real bowl games. I don’t mind losing to them but ND was humiliated and vastly underperformed.

It’s about 1 top 10 finish in 7 years.

It’s about only 3 top 25 finishes in 7 years.

It’s about a LOT of failures over the last 7 years not just his biggest failure of all. Even Auburn was smart enough to realize that despite actually winning a NC Chizik really wasn’t a good coach. ND seems to think Kelly getting humiliated in a NC game is good for 6 more years.
 
Nothing frustrates me more than when someone tries to defend Kelly by pointing to a single game or single season as to why BK is on par with a coach like Shaw or Dantonio. Every coach or player has a bad game or season, this is about the continual failures not a single game or season.

It’s about Losses to teams like; Navy, Tulsa, S. Fla, Pitt, ASU and NW. Not to mention losses to some of the worst UM teams I have seen in 30 years.

It’s about watching every QB under Kelly regress.

It’s about 4 mediocre seasons and 1 horrific season in 7 years.

It’s about having a putrid RZ offense for 7 straight years.

It’s about not being able to get both sides of the ball playing good football in any season. If the defense is good the offense sucks. If the offense is good the defense sucks. Look at this year, the defense was atrocious and the offense was putting up points, now that the defense is showing life the offense is bad.

It’s about only 2 big wins in 7 years.

It’s about getting completely dominated and embarrassed against O$U and Bama in our only real bowl games. I don’t mind losing to them but ND was humiliated and vastly underperformed.

It’s about 1 top 10 finish in 7 years.

It’s about only 3 top 25 finishes in 7 years.

It’s about a LOT of failures over the last 7 years not just his biggest failure of all. Even Auburn was smart enough to realize that despite actually winning a NC Chizik really wasn’t a good coach. ND seems to think Kelly getting humiliated in a NC game is good for 6 more years.

Java, you are 100% correct. Great post.

What is amazing to me is how in the hell cannot "some" ND higher ups see this ?

How does Jenkins and Sawbrick not see these things ? Aren't they at the games ? Are they two busy entertaining donors in their luxury box during games and not paying attention to how the game on the field is being coached and played ?

How do some ND fans still back this guy ? What are they watching ? What in the hell are the BK backers watching on Sat ?

Since Jack has hitched his wagon to bk - its gonna take large donors to stop donating $ to ND for 8 win bk to be finally fired.
 
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No, I had no trouble at all comprehending the post. U tried to draw a parallel between coaches that lost to similar teams. That would've been fine had the one coach accomplished at ND what the other coach did. So again, u can try and make me look like i didn't understand or "comprehend" what you said, but you"d be wrong. Don't blame me for your flawed analogy. And just ftr, it certainly is a case of incompetence if ND loses to those teams cited, and hardly ever, if ever, wins big games. You can't cite similar occurrences as parallels if the rest of the body of work doesn't match.
 
Nice post Java. I have Kelly the benefit of the doubt for years, thinking he was taking the program in the right direction. For me, the decision to hire BVG and retain him beyond last season, and the inexplicable bad game plans for Texas and NCS this season sealed it for me. I no longer look back at Tulsa and Northwestern and Stanford et al as the occasional mishap, but rather indicative of his coaching.
 
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No, I had no trouble at all comprehending the post. U tried to draw a parallel between coaches that lost to similar teams. That would've been fine had the one coach accomplished at ND what the other coach did. So again, u can try and make me look like i didn't understand or "comprehend" what you said, but you"d be wrong. Don't blame me for your flawed analogy. And just ftr, it certainly is a case of incompetence if ND loses to those teams cited, and hardly ever, if ever, wins big games. You can't cite similar occurrences as parallels if the rest of the body of work doesn't match.


Here was the statement I responded to: how does one explain losing in recent years to the likes of Navy, Northwestern, Duke and Stanford?

The response I made was appropriate. My analogy is fine. You are cherry picking.
 
No, actually you're cherry picking. The analogy would've been fine had Kelly won some big games as holtz did. If holtz hadn't won any big games and/or titles a la Kelly, then he would've been "a bum" and your analogy would've been appropriate. That's not the case. You've cherry picked holtz' bad losses w/o factoring in his accomplishments and equated that w/ a coach who's lost to the same teams but hasn't accomplished the positives of holtz. That's not analogous.
 
No, actually you're cherry picking. The analogy would've been fine had Kelly won some big games as holtz did. If holtz hadn't won any big games and/or titles a la Kelly, then he would've been "a bum" and your analogy would've been appropriate. That's not the case. You've cherry picked holtz' bad losses w/o factoring in his accomplishments and equated that w/ a coach who's lost to the same teams but hasn't accomplished the positives of holtz. That's not analogous.

No, the analogy was based just on the opponents referenced by the prior poster, no more and no less. It's really not that complicated.
 
I know it's not complicated. It was simply a flawed analogy that doesn't take into account a coach's entire body of work. Like I said, had holtz not won several big games, I'd be in agreement, but that's not the case. It's like comparing bear Bryant and Dennis Franchione at Alabama had they both lost to similar down teams. It's stupid and sounds like you're grasping at anything to bolster your support of Kelly. Kelly & holtz are not comparable just because they've had similar losses. It s not that complicated.
 
Nice post Java. I have Kelly the benefit of the doubt for years, thinking he was taking the program in the right direction. For me, the decision to hire BVG and retain him beyond last season, and the inexplicable bad game plans for Texas and NCS this season sealed it for me. I no longer look back at Tulsa and Northwestern and Stanford et al as the occasional mishap, but rather indicative of his coaching.
Thanks. I have said all along that I think Kelly is a good coach that just is not able to take ND to the next level. He is a good coach that stayed at least 1 season too long. No ND coaches except the elite have ever lasted more than 5 years. He's not as horrible as some make him out but he isn't great either and he has stayed too long, IMO.
 
Java, you are 100% correct. Great post.

What is amazing to me is how in the hell cannot "some" ND higher ups see this ?

How does Jenkins and Sawbrick not see these things ? Aren't they at the games ? Are they two busy entertaining donors in their luxury box during games and not paying attention to how the game on the field is being coached and played ?

How do some ND fans still back this guy ? What are they watching ? What in the hell are the BK backers watching on Sat ?

Since Jack has hitched his wagon to bk - its gonna take large donors to stop donating $ to ND for 8 win bk to be finally fired.
Honestly, I think there are ND fans that truly want what is best for ND and are just afraid. They see what happened with the 3 before him and are afraid we'll hire another coach like that. They don't want to change unless they get an elite coach because they are fearful based on our history. The problem is elite coaches don't leave a big time school where they are winning to move. Saban left the NFL as a failure and went to Bama. Meyer left UF for a year of broadcasting before moving to O$U. Harbaugh got fired by the 49ers then went to UM. Big time coaches that are successful don't just leave to go to another school.. it just doesn't happen so you have to find a qualified coach, with experience at a smaller school.
 
I know it's not complicated. It was simply a flawed analogy that doesn't take into account a coach's entire body of work. Like I said, had holtz not won several big games, I'd be in agreement, but that's not the case. It's like comparing bear Bryant and Dennis Franchione at Alabama had they both lost to similar down teams. It's stupid and sounds like you're grasping at anything to bolster your support of Kelly. Kelly & holtz are not comparable just because they've had similar losses. It s not that complicated.

As per your norm, you totally miss the point.
 
You are leaving a lot out. There was considerably more occurring in the early 90's, on and off the field, beside admissions. Holtz had to deal with that dimwit from Canada, Wadsworth and an incompetent University President Monk Malloy. Just don't understand where some of you are coming from...this has little to do with W's and L's but with the performance and growth of the team. This is a terribly prepared group week in and week out. Why people can't see this is amazing. Coach 8 & 4 is in way over his head. What worked at lower D2 teams does not translate here at this level. This is about national championship coaching at the D1 level and this guy can't. Period!

Also, this isn't about grades, its more about the core group of classes needed to gain acceptance here. There are plenty of really good players who have high enough GPA and test scores to get in here. Not all, yes, but plenty of terrific players. It's the core subjects needed, 4 years of language, 4 years math etc. that is the stumbling block. Adjust that, create an new type of special situation student (and this is done at all schools in different ways) and lengthen the years to graduate and create a glide path that allows these exemptions and things will change.


I agree, let's give up the core mission of Notre Dame so that we can field a successful football team. When will those idiots in the Administration get their priorities right? You would think that by now ND would have athletic dorms and special classes so that these student-athletes don't have to mingle with non-athlete students. Segregation now, segregation forever!
 
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I agree, let's give up the core mission of Notre Dame so that we can field a successful football team. When will those idiots in the Administration get their priorities right? You would think that by now ND would have athletic dorms and special classes so that these student-athletes don't have to mingle with non-athlete students. Segregation now, segregation forever!

That is not at all what the comment says. Have someone read it to you slowly or better yet have someone draw you pictures. There does not have to be an abandonment in one degree for this to happen. Currently (that means right now) there are exemptions to admission standards at ND for special situation students. Every school has this, including Harvard and the Ivy League. It depends on circumstances and the uniqueness of the person. What needs to happen is a special program be established for those lacking the core HS courses. This program would include the courses he/she is lacking as part of their studies. It would be a 5 - 6 year program, but it would allow a glide path for some athletes to gain admittance. There are plenty of players who have the GPA and Test scores to get in. Its the core HS courses that has become a problem.

College football is completely different than 10 years ago and is spinning faster and faster into another universe. You can blame this on cable TV and the enormous demand for content. Either you embrace it and try to work with it or you give up. And have the courage to tell everyone that. Goodbye NBC. Good bye over a hundred years of good will. And kiss good bye the millions of fans who wait each year for ND football which is the nexus of the ND spirit. Hey, lets apply than to the Ivy League. I'm for that, if that is what the administration wants. Just don't pander to the alumni, be straight with us and we will follow. But don't lie, year in and year out about how important football is and put together this product and tell us we are a top program. We are NOT. Just because you provide us with a Jumbotron and astro turf does not make us elite. What Hesburgh did in 1952 was at a different time and place in the evolution of ND as a world class institution. The market is passing ND by now, either get with it or off. Just decide and tell us the truth (oh, and tell NBC they can take back their stadium lights - won't be needing them).
 
That is not at all what the comment says. Have someone read it to you slowly or better yet have someone draw you pictures. There does not have to be an abandonment in one degree for this to happen. Currently (that means right now) there are exemptions to admission standards at ND for special situation students. Every school has this, including Harvard and the Ivy League. It depends on circumstances and the uniqueness of the person. What needs to happen is a special program be established for those lacking the core HS courses. This program would include the courses he/she is lacking as part of their studies. It would be a 5 - 6 year program, but it would allow a glide path for some athletes to gain admittance. There are plenty of players who have the GPA and Test scores to get in. Its the core HS courses that has become a problem.

College football is completely different than 10 years ago and is spinning faster and faster into another universe. You can blame this on cable TV and the enormous demand for content. Either you embrace it and try to work with it or you give up. And have the courage to tell everyone that. Goodbye NBC. Good bye over a hundred years of good will. And kiss good bye the millions of fans who wait each year for ND football which is the nexus of the ND spirit. Hey, lets apply than to the Ivy League. I'm for that, if that is what the administration wants. Just don't pander to the alumni, be straight with us and we will follow. But don't lie, year in and year out about how important football is and put together this product and tell us we are a top program. We are NOT. Just because you provide us with a Jumbotron and astro turf does not make us elite. What Hesburgh did in 1952 was at a different time and place in the evolution of ND as a world class institution. The market is passing ND by now, either get with it or off. Just decide and tell us the truth (oh, and tell NBC they can take back their stadium lights - won't be needing them).


No one here believes that you are an ND alum.
 
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I didn't miss your point. I just pointed out that it was stupid, as per your norm.

Btw, java, good post, I agree.
 
If you believe he is an ND alum, you are quite a gullible individual. .
didn't say I do or don't believe him...but the all or nothing responses are juvenile....BTW...I am not a Notre Dame grad...but I do pay my taxes and have a clean driving record.....and I have been following Notre Dame football since about 1967.
 
That is not at all what the comment says. Have someone read it to you slowly or better yet have someone draw you pictures. There does not have to be an abandonment in one degree for this to happen. Currently (that means right now) there are exemptions to admission standards at ND for special situation students. Every school has this, including Harvard and the Ivy League. It depends on circumstances and the uniqueness of the person. What needs to happen is a special program be established for those lacking the core HS courses. This program would include the courses he/she is lacking as part of their studies. It would be a 5 - 6 year program, but it would allow a glide path for some athletes to gain admittance. There are plenty of players who have the GPA and Test scores to get in. Its the core HS courses that has become a problem.

College football is completely different than 10 years ago and is spinning faster and faster into another universe. You can blame this on cable TV and the enormous demand for content. Either you embrace it and try to work with it or you give up. And have the courage to tell everyone that. Goodbye NBC. Good bye over a hundred years of good will. And kiss good bye the millions of fans who wait each year for ND football which is the nexus of the ND spirit. Hey, lets apply than to the Ivy League. I'm for that, if that is what the administration wants. Just don't pander to the alumni, be straight with us and we will follow. But don't lie, year in and year out about how important football is and put together this product and tell us we are a top program. We are NOT. Just because you provide us with a Jumbotron and astro turf does not make us elite. What Hesburgh did in 1952 was at a different time and place in the evolution of ND as a world class institution. The market is passing ND by now, either get with it or off. Just decide and tell us the truth (oh, and tell NBC they can take back their stadium lights - won't be needing them).


If those are the options I vote to get off the train. I would be perfectly fine with ND's football program being more akin to the Ivy League programs then to Alabama, Ol' Miss, etc.
 
If those are the options I vote to get off the train. I would be perfectly fine with ND's football program being more akin to the Ivy League programs then to Alabama, Ol' Miss, etc.
Here's the dirty little secret....Alabama's football program and its 90 or so players do not represent the value of an Alabama college education and degree. Those matters are evaluated separately by the workplace as it should be. A Notre Dame education is valuable...but it is not invaluable.
 
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Here's the dirty little secret....Alabama's football program and its 90 or so players do not represent the value of an Alabama college education and degree. Those matters are evaluated separately by the workplace as it should be. A Notre Dame education is valuable...but it is not invaluable.


Sorry Harpo but I do believe that ND is something different. It isn't just the degree it is the whole package. A degree from ND opens doors that a degree from Alabama doesn't. An Alabama degree may mean something in-state and with certain, limited degrees. An ND degree means something nationally. I got my first job in Oregon because of connections with ND. I got my next job because the firm wanted to improve it pedigree and have an ND grad.
 
Sorry Harpo but I do believe that ND is something different. It isn't just the degree it is the whole package. A degree from ND opens doors that a degree from Alabama doesn't. An Alabama degree may mean something in-state and with certain, limited degrees. An ND degree means something nationally. I got my first job in Oregon because of connections with ND. I got my next job because the firm wanted to improve it pedigree and have an ND grad.
I said a Notre Dame degree was valuable...but it isn't invaluable. That is...without it...one can succeed. I did. Stop saying an instate degree is limited. It isn't. Education is only part of the equation. I love Notre Dame and hold it in the highest esteem educationally. However...I know people who have blue collar college degrees who put countless hours of dedication into learning...and these people are every bit as educated, learned, and prepared for life as a Notre Dame graduate. I am not devaluing a Notre Dame degree. But please do not overstate it either. The total person matters.
 
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I said a Notre Dame degree valuable...but it isn't invaluable. That is...without it...one can succeed. I did. Stop saying an instate degree is limited. It isn't. Education is only part of the equation. I love Notre Dame and hold it in the highest esteem educationally. However...I know people who have blue collar college degrees who put countless hours of dedication into learning...and these people are every bit as educated, learned, and prepared for life as a Notre Dame graduate. I am not devaluing a Notre Dame degree. But please do not overstate it either. The total person matters.

Harpo, now you're missing my point. A degree from Boston College counts for a lot in New England but it is a regional school and doesn't carry much weight outside of New England. A degree from Arizona State counts for a lot in Arizona but not much up here in Oregon and even less in New England. A degree from Georgia doesn't county for much outside of Georgia. There are only a small group of "national" schools that open doors throughout the country. I include all of the Ivy League schools on that list, as well as Notre Dame, Stanford, Vanderbilt, Duke, the service academies, and a couple of others.

A degree from any of these schools does not guaranty success but it does give you a leg up, particularly when you are starting out. I chose to go to ND, rather than a regional school, because its national reputation would allow me to live anywhere I chose. That, along with the incredible alumni network, is where the real value of an ND degree is. Again, it has nothing to do with how well the football team does or who the coach is.
 
Harpo, now you're missing my point. A degree from Boston College counts for a lot in New England but it is a regional school and doesn't carry much weight outside of New England. A degree from Arizona State counts for a lot in Arizona but not much up here in Oregon and even less in New England. A degree from Georgia doesn't county for much outside of Georgia. There are only a small group of "national" schools that open doors throughout the country. I include all of the Ivy League schools on that list, as well as Notre Dame, Stanford, Vanderbilt, Duke, the service academies, and a couple of others.

A degree from any of these schools does not guaranty success but it does give you a leg up, particularly when you are starting out. I chose to go to ND, rather than a regional school, because its national reputation would allow me to live anywhere I chose. That, along with the incredible alumni network, is where the real value of an ND degree is. Again, it has nothing to do with how well the football team does or who the coach is.
I get that. I also have three college degrees...and it should be four...save for my own personal issues. I succeeded because education and....more importantly, drive made the difference. The "drive" used to exist in America and was a prized possession. Today? I don't know.
 
There is still a drive, the object of the drive has changed however. I've talked with a lot of younger people and they aren't inspired to work to get a fancy car (or even a car at all) or a big house (or a house at all). They want experiences - whether traveling or different career experiences. They may or may not want a family. They may or may not want to become a doctor or a lawyer or a CEO. It all comes down to what a person considers to be success. I commend them if, to them, success is measured by something other than the amount of money they have in a bank account.
 
In 1991 and when the Class of 1990 left in 1993. ND has not put a physically dominant team on the field in 23 years.

Firing the ONLY coach in 22 years to have any success for one bad season would be like Mich State firing D'Antonio for this season. If you coach at one place long enough, seasons like this happen.

In 1989 I met Vinnie Cerrato when he was looking at a skinny weak armed QB out of Tampa. I could not believe the best team in College Football would look at this kid. His name was Tom Carter.

Vinnie Cerrato from 86-90 would negotiate with Admissions and the "marginal student athletes" who gained admission performed admirably. ( Rice, Smagala, Zorich to name a few...)

In the Summer Camp of 1991 Vinnie Cerrato lost every negotiation for every "marginal recruit" Cerrato left for the 49ers and the rest is history.

Firing Kelly is not the answer and Swarbrick made the right decision.

BTW Urban Meyer discussed "negotiations" with admissions for 5 marginal kids a year.How'd that work out?

Brian Kelly said he shops for players on a different aisle. Well, ND is not doing anything until they can shop on the same aisle. Like Lou and Vinnie were allowed for 5 years.
Why are you so resistant that other coaches do more with less?
 
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