ND didn’t sniff a point the last 41 minutes!!
- Thread starter Get Nasty
- Start date
In '88, Miami probably had more talent than us. But we beat them anyways. Same with FSU in '93, which had the Heisman winner at QB. So Lou could pull games like that off sometimes, where he could knock off a team with even more talent than we had. Kelly never did. He wasn't a big game coach.
As for Freeman, two games against two very good teams is not a big enough sample size to make any determinations. I like the way the team played Saturday. I just didn't like the 2nd half playcalling.
Lou’s teams could run on anyone. No matter what they were ranked.
I remember being 12 years old, and before the FSU game thinking “FSU can’t stop Becton”.
Our putrid running attack is one of the prime reasons that we have this pathetic record vs Top Ranked teams. If we can’t run, we can’t beat them. Vs these top ranked teams, we live in 2nd and long, and 3rd and long. Won’t win that way.
Miami and FSU may have been slightly better but NOT THAT MUCH.
In 88 against Miami, Kelly already had guys playing from two #1 classes he himself had recruited. As for 93 against FSU, the seniors were from Kelly's last #1 class -- 1990.
ND had no shortage of premier talent in either game.
As for Freeman, correct, it's two small a sample size to draw any definitive conclusions from. My only point was that, SO FAR, Kelly's so-called "legacy" is INTACT.
I’m aware and previously in this discussion said as much. Manziel ran Mike Leach system with Kliff Kingsbury, a MIke Leach disciple calling plays as offensive coordinator. It doesn’t change the fact that he has padded stats from operating in the Leach system. He was unable to function even marginally within any other system after he left it.
Not talking about when he left.
Talking about him winning the HEISMAN as a freshman. Something Buchner has already NOT DONE.
Will Buchner RUN for 26 TD's in a single season or beat Alabama? And do it in the SAME YEAR? If he does ND WORLD will have changed dramatically, and Freeman will have TRULY EARNED the laurel leaf he's, FOR SOME, ALREADY WEARING.
As far Manziel's "padded" stats, they all came from EXECUTED PLAYS. And again, not just passing. In 2012, Manziel RAN for nearly 1,500 yds. That's around 600 more than Tony Rice's best year.
There was NO QUESTION Manziel was not only the best QB in CFB in 12 and possibly 13, he was THE BEST OFFENSIVE PLAYER as well. That's why he won the Heisman. The writers GOT IT.
Is Buchner even in the top 10 of CFB QB's today? Maybe, he'll get there, but he sure isn't there now. I saw three QB's over the weekend alone I'd take over Buchner, and that's without having seen either Georgia or Alabama play.
Lou and Vinny brought in the #1 ranked recruiting classes something like 5 yrs in a row. even Lou said 8 wins is automatic at nd just from a talent advantage. Sure Lou was good in big games but the talent he had was also as good or better then every team he faced. Kelly’s talent although really good wasn’t as good as Lou’s
Manziel had redshirted a year, so when he won the Heisman he was the same age as Buchner now.
4 number one classes in a row: 87 through 90.
And, yes, Kelly's talent hasn't measured up to that of the better teams ND has played.
I would even argue that Kelly did as well with HIS LESSER TALENT as Holtz did with his BETTER TALENT.
Kelly had nowhere near 4 number one clases. In fact, he had ZERO.
To anyone who's watched ND football from 1986 till now, THIS SHOULD BE PAINFULLY OBVIOUS, though sadly it's NOT.
As for Kelly not trying harder, does anyone actually think that he could have literally TALKED ANY OF THE LAST 10 HEISMAN WINNERS OR A MATERIAL PORTION OF THE AA SELECTIONS into coming to ND? Those players were NEVER COMING just as many will continue TO NOT DO SO.
ND is a specialty brand where you have to agree to a DIFFERENT DEGREE OF COMMITMENT. The average stud recruit is IN NO WAY INCLINED TO DO THAT. Those with superior talent who come to ND are by far the EXCEPTION, not the rule.
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Is age the critical factor here? I'm talking talent.
I don't see anything remotely as dynamic in Buchner's game as in Manziel's.
And do you see Buchner as a serious Heisman contender? And I'm talking this year.
Stroud WON that game for OSU with those two sideline throws as much as either of OSU's lines or its backs. Buchner, in contrast, GAME-MANAGED.
Never threatened to take over the game for a second. Plus, his vaunted running ability was completely absent.
He played OKAY, but I saw nothing REMOTELY dynamic.
Meanwhile, Manziel, in a similar type matchup, picked apart that same Alabama team that BLUDGEONED ND.
I wasn't the one who brought up Manziel as a comparison. I said I thought Buchner was more of a Marcus Mariota-type of QB. BTW Mariota won the Heisman in his 3rd year starting, but didn't finish in the top 10 in the Heisman voting in either of his first two years.
BTW Manziel's long gone from the NFL, while Mariota's starting for the Falcons this year.
The gasbag says that Kelly could’ve never gotten any of those players that he’s slobbering all over to come to ND so I guess that makes it so. But I think that’s the point, Kelly couldn’t, but maybe someone else could’ve. Any ND fan that’s oohing & aahing over what kelly accomplished at ND is no different than the ND fan that is critical of portions of the program & thinks they’re always right because they’re being critical of their own supposed team. That’s not the case at all. Criticism of your own team doesn’t mean you’re right about the criticism. Sometimes, it’s not even close to the truth.
How you feel about Buchner after TODAY's performance?
For me, it wasn't a surprise.
I don't think Buchner is Manziel OR Mariota.
If that's the take you got from this game, you know zero about football. Thank you for confirming how clueless you are.
He's clueless, a keyboard warrior, but knows nothing about football.
probably; but for many here, given ND’s penchant for sticking with contracts, he will be-the last ND head coach!
I wrote that post after Freeman's first two games. OSU and OSU were both very good teams.
He didn't play very well. But it's still too early to write him off, after only two starts in his sophomore year. Kenny Pickett was a fairly ordinary quarterback for 3 years, before he blew up in his 4th year starting.
Now ND Nation likely won't have that kind of patience with Buchner, but I was trying to illustrate the idea of quarterbacks improving. They aren't a finished product after two games.
Yes, Buchner could improve. But as with Freeman, it will COME AT A PRICE. On the job training at QB at ND is as thankless a task as it is for a head coach. People will not TOLERATE it as it will involve LOSING GAMES.
Besides, I don't think Buchner is that good. He's athletic and can run a bit. But he doesn't throw well when rushed, makes bad throwing decisions, throws into coverage and is only MARGINALLY ACCURATE.
On any given play, I have no idea of what will happen once he takes the snap. With Coan dropping back, for instance, you knew that in most instances, the ball WOULD GO WHERE IT SHOULD.
I don't at all feel that with Buchner.
Again, he's still learning on the job. So yeah, some bad throwing decisions are part of that.
But we have more problems offensively than just him, like poor OL play, not much of a running game, and only one wide receiver who's looked capable so far (Styles).
No argument about the other stuff, but I still feel strongly that Buchner has just as much abiity to LOSE games as to WIN them. He certainly put a CAP on yesterday's loss. Coan or Kizer could very likely have taken the team right down the field and scored.
That game yesterday, despite everything, could still have been won. Against Toledo, we pulled it out. Yesterday, Buchner LITERALLY threw it away.
We're talking the difference between WINNING AND LOSING.
Buchner COST us the game when RIGHT ON THE LINE. Whereas Coan, last year, led SEVERAL final drive comebacks.
And to say Buchner's still learning -- what does it get you? He's ND'S STARTING QB!
If this all continues, MORE LOSSES AHEAD.
Everyone's a moron to the know it all, Golson. Where have you been lately resident fan boy?
I wish I was an idiot and Golson new football… we’d be much happier today.
