Jeff Quinn
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The hope is that the defense has to be better this year because from a historic standpoint it can't be much worse.
kelly authored the worst ppg against ND in school history in 2014.
Opponents averaged 29.15 per game.
2015's 24.07 against is the 5th worst in school history.
The 2 years combined are the worst consecutive years ever for ND football.
As I have repeatedly written, ND can get the horses to compete and perhaps the worst coach in cfb history brought us to 2 BCS games and within a "bush push" from NC game consideration.
PS The school's reputation and ability to bring in talent enabled 2 horrible coaches, willingham and weis, to win coach of the year awards. Where ND is lacking is coaching...... It's not that difficult.
No objection there and I think we both fully agree that Adams is a nice pickup. Where is I take issue is your seemingly constant idea that in order to compete for the playoffs (the road to a national title) ND must greatly improve it's recruiting. In reality, when you look at the individuals that comprise ND's classes, rather than simply the overall class ranking compared to others, you'll see that at a lot of positions, ND is "right there" with the playoff teams in terms of talent. I'd say that's the case at Quarterback, offensive line, wide receiver, tight end and linebacker. It's too early to tell at defensive back because the 7 ND just landed are still freshman... I see this team as having two main weaknesses compared to other playoff contenders (many of whom have their own weaknesses). I think ND is thin and lacking overall athleticism at DL and until we see how how Tarean Folston bounces back off the knee injury, I'm not thrilled about running back either.
As it relates specifically to linebackers,
I don't have an issue with the group of...
James Onwualu
Nyles Morgan
Greer Martini
Te'Von Coney
Asmar Bilal
Josh Barajas
Daelin Hayes
Jonathan Jones
Jamir Jones
David Adams
Add a couple more guys (Werner would be nice) to the mix in 2017 and we have a nice group.
Note: I'd also be heavily in favour of moving Drue Tranquil to James Onwualu's position as well (splitting reps) especially coming off back-to-back ACL's. I know we're not deep at safety, but the kid would be one hell of a box player as a SAM backer. Potentially great "hang defender". At only a shade under 6'2 and already weighing 225lbs (playing safety) Drue could easily play up over 230lbs and would probably be a linebacker running right around 4.7. Very quick, tough and instinctual.
CGVR,
I'm willing to give BVG one more chance to get it right before I'm on board with the idea of Kelly canning him. Bob Diaco was a solid, but unspectacular DC at ND. Well above average, but probably not elite. He built one of the finest scoring defenses in the country (#2 in 2012) on the back of ND's talent. We have direct evidence to prove it can be done....
I agree entirely that coaching has been the biggest problem on that side of the ball since Diaco's departure. That, and some really unfortunate injuries to key players.
Yet -- Luke was determined to be not a good fit by the old regime -- He should have been at ND.
not "greatly"; but ND needs a couple of impact athletes on the DL. Jones is in his last year; IF JT is as good as billed then 1 more after this season. Then consider the propensity/trend for injuries to recent ND teams, so quality depth is needed; not just bodies.
Remember not to long ago the ESPN talking heads citing that ND is just not athletic enough on defense ...?
Compared to 2012 do you consider the current defense ND to be more or less athletic to that team? Which way is the needle pointing ?
Perse.
I think ND's team is far more athletic in 2015 than it was in 2012... Look at the skilled positions and the speed at receiver, the athletes at quarterback and the entirety of the offensive line.
Defensively it's nearly impossible to compare because the defense was built differently. Such a dynamic difference between 3-4 and 4-3 defenses and the type of athlete you need at each position in the front 7.... Everything in the front 7 is bigger (and slower) in a 3-4 vs smaller, faster athletes in a 4-3.
If you want to talk ability foot races and agility, Rochell would beat Tuitt, Jones would beat Nix and Trumbetti would beat Lewis-Moore. Onwualu would run circles around Shembo, Morgan would outrace Te'o and Bilal / Coney would outrun Spond / Fox... Now if you're talking strength, flip those battles nearly entirely.
2015 Notre Dame is much more athletic than 2012 Notre Dame. I think that will show itself in time... Hell I think we just saw that with 10 NFL draft invites this year (tied for the most of any team).
Biggest difference between 2012 and 2015, however???
DE: Kapron Lewis-Moore (SR- 3 year starter)
NG: Louis Nix (JR- 2year starter)
DE: Stephon Tuitt (SOPH- 1.5 year starter)
OLB: Prince Shembo (SR- 3 year starter)
ILB: Manti Te'o (SR- 3 year starter)
ILB: Dan Fox (SR- 2 year starter)
OLB: Dan Fox (JR- 1.5 year starter)
That team started only 1 underclassman in Tuitt (whose was a monster) and all of them had been starters or co-starters the prior season...
Athleticism alone isn't usually enough. You need an experienced, cohesive group as well in most cases.
I think ND's team is far more athletic in 2015 than it was in 2012... Look at the skilled positions and the speed at receiver, the athletes at quarterback and the entirety of the offensive line.
Defensively it's nearly impossible to compare because the defense was built differently. Such a dynamic difference between 3-4 and 4-3 defenses and the type of athlete you need at each position in the front 7.... Everything in the front 7 is bigger (and slower) in a 3-4 vs smaller, faster athletes in a 4-3.
If you want to talk ability foot races and agility, Rochell would beat Tuitt, Jones would beat Nix and Trumbetti would beat Lewis-Moore. Onwualu would run circles around Shembo, Morgan would outrace Te'o and Bilal / Coney would outrun Spond / Fox... Now if you're talking strength, flip those battles nearly entirely.
2015 Notre Dame is much more athletic than 2012 Notre Dame. I think that will show itself in time... Hell I think we just saw that with 10 NFL draft invites this year (tied for the most of any team).
Biggest difference between 2012 and 2015, however???
DE: Kapron Lewis-Moore (SR- 3 year starter)
NG: Louis Nix (JR- 2year starter)
DE: Stephon Tuitt (SOPH- 1.5 year starter)
OLB: Prince Shembo (SR- 3 year starter)
ILB: Manti Te'o (SR- 3 year starter)
ILB: Dan Fox (SR- 2 year starter)
OLB: Dan Fox (JR- 1.5 year starter)
That team started only 1 underclassman in Tuitt (whose was a monster) and all of them had been starters or co-starters the prior season...
Athleticism alone isn't usually enough. You need an experienced, cohesive group as well in most cases.
do you guys read? pay attention please: defense is the discussion. How many posts do I make that I consider the offense and offensive recruiting to be at playoff calibre?
The current defense is just not as football athletic as the 2012 roster. Tillery and who? The trend towards the Weisian type defensive talent seems to be more the case.
Look, in season, this board implodes weekly discussing the futility of the defense!
Not 1, nary a single one of you guys! has the right to complain 1 time re the defense, or post any negative defensive comment next season! For you guys: it is "pump me some sunshine!" So when any of you guys want to vent about the D in '16: put a sock in it it!
I read just fine thank you.
Most of our discussion has surrounded the defense. I looked at the team for as a whole for about half a paragraph.
The defense isn't athletic?
You've already conceded but I'll list him anyways...
Jerry Tillery (6'6, 315lbs)
Jarron Jones (6'5, 315lbs)
Isaac Rochell (6'3.5, 290lbs)
Khalid Kareem (6'3, 265lbs)
Julian Okwara (6'4, 230lbs)
Nyles Morgan (6'1, 245lbs)
Asmar Bilal (6'2, 235lbs)
James Onwualu (6'1, 235lbs)
Daelin Hayes (6'3, 255lbs)
Max Redfield (6'1, 210lbs)
Mykelti Williams (5'11, 200lbs)
Cole Luke (5'11, 193lbs)
Shaun Crawford (5'9, 180lbs)
Devin Studstill (6'0, 190lbs)
Troy Pride Jr (6'0, 180lbs)
Those are just some of the excellent defensive athletes ND has (off the top of my head). All of them were 4 star recruits, with the exception of Hayes and Redfield, who were 5 star recruits. In my mind the problem the problem isn't athleticism, the problem is that many of ND's best athletes are young players and they're being asked to run an NFL style defense that has a lot of rotation, a lot zone blitzer's and asks college kids to have a lot of different roles.
You're not really one of those people that thinks Max Redfield isn't athletically capable of turning and running with a receiver are you? I doubt you are, but just in case you happen to be... That's not the problem. The problem was that he came from a system where he simply had to play man and be better than the guy right in front of him. Then he came to a system that rotates a lot of coverage towards vacated pressure zones and asks a lot of it's safeties (too much for a college defense if you ask me).
A good friend of mine, who is college coach and a fellow Irish Fan had this discussion over Christmas. BVG comes from the school that believes that because of the complexities of today's offenses and their ability to check into the best plays possible to exploit what they see pre-snap, you have to constantly do things post snap to cause confusion and indecision in the quarterback. That is an NFL philosophy to the core. The NFL is like a chess game, that both teams (players and coaches) spend countless hours each week preparing for. My friend and I share the opinion that in college, the best way to win is to still lineup and be stronger, faster and more fundamentally sound than the guy across from you. Yes that tends to lend more to the Diaco / Saban bend-but-don't-break style, but ND's decided to run a 4-3 under BVG. So they'll look for a different type of athlete, do different things with coverage and try to execute a bunch of different pressure packages. Hopefully the kids catch on, because even really good athletes look like crap when they're going to wrong way.
focus (why can't you follow the issue?) whyobfuscate the obvious? Your list has 4 guys that have played! Not one is yet an achieved impact level player! It is a list of names.
since 2004 how many DT commitments have there been? shocking answer.
How many were contributors? even more shocking.
If anyone wants to identify ND's recruiting issue, look no farther.
since 2004 how many DT commitments have there been? shocking answer.
How many were contributors? even more shocking.
If anyone wants to identify ND's recruiting issue, look no farther.
For the record IIO - I really enjoy your posts. Always very informative. Agree w/ your analysis. Give BVG one last year to figure it out. If there is no improvement or very little improvement - then he needs to be officially shown the door. 3 years for a D coordinator to get a defense going is plenty of time. Regardless of the injuries we have had - all teams (except maybe Stanford) has injuries they have to deal with.
Go Irish ! Game 1 down in Texas will be a good one. Gonna be a very tough game for ND. They have that game circled.
bvg's had some gems (shutting out michigan...the Texas opener... ). Our lack of consistency and inability to establish an identity on either side of the ball are major problems. It's hard to believe that Smith's only sack last year took place in the 2nd 1/4 of the opener....
At least Diaco was smart enough to deploy a scheme that could be executed....
Total D ND (alabama)
2010 51 (5)
2011 30 (1)
2012 7 (1)
2013 31 (5)
2014 73 (12)
2015 45 (3)
We have a long long ways to go....and there is nothing that tells me we are closing the gap.
Bodizephax
I've posted how many times?
I call em like I see em. Purse is a Turd. Purse posts a lot less when the Irish are doing well.
I believe the Irish D will be GREAT this year and were doing Great last year before the injuries.
Problems at ND today between longo and quinn.....
Apparently, quinn was yelling "sink the ships" on one side of the weight training room. longo walked over and whispered to him, "psssst, it's burn the boats". A few minutes later quinn was back screaming "sink the ships" .... longo walked back and frustratingly said, "listen, why don't you stick with "feel the burn" today?"
On a good note the S&C coaching team had a morning meeting where they discussed "Head Coach take down/restraint".... After reviewing tape of the Grimes incident quinn offered some of his wrestling expertise. (Factoid: he's a better wrestling coach than football coach.) Anyway, quinn noted that kelly likes to come in high which opens him up to both a single or double leg take down. He demonstrated each move on van gorder as others took notes. On the 2 leg take down bvg banged his head and when quinn asked if he was okay bvg replied, "How much you wanna make a bet I can throw a football over them mountains?".
Bodizephax
I've posted how many times?
Factoid: CGVR asked Jim Harbaugh if he could be his Butler. When Harbaugh told cgvr he already had a butler, cgvr smiled and said " ok, but does he wipe your butt after you take a crap?"
True story !!!
Jim Harbaugh signed the nation's # 1 recruit. Adding insult to injury he's from Paramus Catholic in NJ, a D lineman and was recruited by Greg Mattison.
From the other site:
"Top 25 247 players:
kelly:
Jaylon Smith
Aaron Lynch
weis:
Manti Te'o
Michael Floyd
Dayne Crist
Jimmy Clausen
Sam Young
James Aldridge
And that's four years of recruiting for weis vs. six for kelly."
Feel free to remove your tongue from you know where....
Bodizephax
I've posted how many times?
Factoid: Brian Kelly is a better coach and recruiter than Charlie Weis. Josh Adams was a three star and had a better year rushing than any of Charlies running backs.
And your mongoloid brain forgot other 5 stars that Coach Kelly recruited including Daelin Hayes, Quenton Nelson, Stephon Tuitt (12 sacks in a season) Ishaq Williams, and many others.
You did not graduate from Notre Dame. You are too stupid.
CGVR,
Congrats for doing absolutely no research in making your point...
Fact... 247sports did not exist when Charlie Weis was at Notre Dame. It came to fruition during the Brian Kelly era (2010) when many of the mainstays at Rivals, including the original creator of Rivals, Shannon Terry, left to form 247 sports. A guy like Steve Wiltfong was working for Mike Frank at ISD... So Weis had ZERO top 25 players ranked by 247sports (or its composite), because it didn't exist. The rankings that were widely excepted as "above the others" at the time were Rivals... The listed "composite" for any players prior to 2010 does not include 247Sports ranking for a player, compared to post 2010, which does... Therefore, you cannot compare the two era's using the composite ranking because you're not comparing apples-to-apples.
So lets look at the real recruit rankings you're referring to, ranked by Rivals the recruiting service that was (and still is by a some) considered the most accurate... Certainly nobody that follows recruiting would suggest that ESPN or Scout were more accurate in 2005, nor today.
Charlie Weis had a total of 4 top 25 recruits according to Rivals...
Manti Te'o: #2 linebacker, #12 overall.
Dayne Crist: #3 quarterback, #25 overall.
Jimmy Clausen: #1 quarterback, #1 overall.
Sam Young: #2 offensive lineman, #11 overall.
Top 25 recruits that narrowly missed the top 25...
James Aldridge: # 3 running back, #27 overall.
Michael Floyd: #6 wide receiver, #27 overall.
Duval Kamara: #6 WR, #34 overall.
Ethan Johnson: #3 DE, #32 overall.
Brian Kelly has had a total of 6 top 25 recruits according to Rivals...
Ishaq Williams: #3 DE, #16 overall.
Stephon Tuitt: #4 DE, #22 overall.
Gunner Kiel: #2 QB, #20 overall.
Jaylon Smith: #1 LB, #3 overall.
Greg Bryant: #3 RB, #19 overall.
Eddie Vanderdoes: #2 DT, #21 overall.
Not top 25 recruits that narrowly missed the top 25...
Aaron Lynch, #5 DE, #28 overall.
Max Redfield, #8 DB, #30 overall.
Quenton Nelson, OL #3, # 29 overall.
Daelin Hayes, LB #8, #31 overall.
Kelly has signed 6, top 25 ranked players in their respective class according to Rivals, compared to 4 for Charlie Weis. They both averaged basically 1 top 25 player per class during their tenure at Notre Dame...
You can't make an argument based on a retrospective, re-tooled rating that didn't exist when half the players in question were being evaluated.
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your world keeps getting darker and darker. professional help readily available in your area.
Well here's an example. This is their link to the 2007 ranking.
http://247sports.com/Season/2007-Football/CompositeRecruitRankings?InstitutionGroup=highschool
It does not matter whether you agree with it or not. Another poster from another site was astute enough to pick up on it.
My post is accurate.... and if you click the tab there is a year to year drop down going back the better part of 2 decades.
PS Including Eddie Vanderdoes and Gunner Kiel in kelly's totals is a nice touch. Bumping kelly's totals in this fashion is unfortunate. Plus, Greg Bryant couldn't ditch him fast enough.
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help available in your area. some sort of hotline i'd imagine. use it man ! use it !
In addition, during weis' 5 years at ND he signed 3 Rivals top 10 recruiting classes with a high of # 2.
In 6 years kelly has signed one top ten class which was rated # 3.
ND recruiting rankings rivals:
2003 12
2004 92
2005 40
2006 8
2007 8
2008 2
2009 21
2010 14
2011 10
2012 20
2013 3
2014 11
2015 11
2016 12
Again, that database is flawed prior to 2010 in comparison to post 2010... 247Sports retroactively gathered a composite rating of players based on 3 evaluations (Rivals, ESPN, Scout) and, therefore, each of those rankings was worth 33.3% of the composite. All of Charlie Weis' recruits fall into that composite. On the other hand, all of Brian Kelly's recruits come in the post 2010 addition of 247Sports own ranking to the composite, which adds a 4th evaluation, comprising 25% of the overall composite.
It doesn't matter if you accurately cited the database if it isn't consistent in it's evaluation. In particular, you can't make that comparison when you're talking about a significant transformation in the composite evaluation process, when you're arguing an arbitrary number such as top 25, when there a bunch of guys in question (from both eras) that within 5-10 spots of that number and whose spot in the top 25 could be SIGNIFCANTLY altered by one more, or one less evaluation.
Do you understand that class rankings are based on accumulated points from recruits and that class rankings are affected by two things; the quality of your recruits (their star rating) and the quantity of recruits in your class...
Look at Weis' 3, top 10 classes.
2006- 28 commits
2007- 18 commits
2008- 23 commits
Look at Kelly's 2, top 10 classes.
2011- 23 commits
2013- 24 commits
Now look at 2014 and 2015 under Brian Kelly. Both of those classes finished ranked #11, one spot out of the "top 10". Those classes had 23 and 24 commits, respectively. Do you not think if Kelly had been able to take 28 players in either (or both) of those classes like Weis did in his first full class in 2006, that he would have two more "top 10" classes to his name? It's literally a scenario where we're talking about depth players (many of whom never saw the field) being the difference between an extra, essentially mythical top 10 class for Weis over Kelly.
You can throw out numbers all you want, but they rarely (if ever) tell the entire story.
They tell an accurate story and you may spin them all you want. The fact that you included Gunner Kiel and Eddie Vanderdoes in your "kelly" totals is telling.
weis had 3 top 10 rankings as source by rivals and kelly has had 1. Also, kelly made the championship game on the backbone of weis recruits who he declared not to be his guys. In fairness, he apologized for his stupid and divisive remark.
PS Another point is that they both benefited greatly by the fact that players come to ND regardless of who the coach is... Listen closely to Jaylon Smith's remarks beginning at the 48 second mark.
<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FwM9PpBuOfA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
CGVR,
First of all, you've twice stated that Kelly has had ONE TOP 10 class at ND, yet you seem to struggle to read your own statistical references... Clearly, Brian Kelly (as I correctly stated in the previous post) has had TWO top 10 recruiting classes, one of which you seem content on ignoring. Brian Kelly has the #3 recruiting class in 2012 and the #10 recruiting class in 2011... 1+1=2. No?
Furthermore, if you're going to change the argument about "signed classes" to say that Kiel and Vanderdoes shouldn't count, then why not include all of the players that basically did nothing on the football field at Notre Dame? That includes Dayne Crist who sat around forever, only to get injured and turn out to be a bust, and James Aldridge, who wrecked his knee before he got to ND and barely contributed. That list should also include Aaron Lynch, who had a solid freshman campaign before transferring and Ishaq Williams, who played sparingly, before the academic problems that ended his career.
Furthermore, if you actually want to talk about what matters in recruiting, how he players develop during their time in South Bend... How many 1st round NFL draft picks did Weis COACH and DEVELOP during hi tenure vs Brian Kelly?
Charlie Weis 1st round NFL Drafts Picks
QB: Brady Quinn (#22 overall, Cleveland).
WR: Michael Floyd (#8 overall, Arizona). - Weis gets half credit
Brian Kelly 1st round NFL Draft Picks
WR: Michael Floyd (#8 overall, Arizona). - Kelly gets half credit.
S: Harrison Smith (#29 overall, Minnesota).
TE: Tyler Eifert (#21 overall, Cincinnati).
OL: Zack Martin (#16 overall, Dallas).
OL: Ronnie Stanley- 1st round lock in 2016 draft next month.
LB: Jaylon Smith- 1st round lock in 2016 next month.
WR: Will Fuller- Trending towards 1st round pick next month.
Note: Stephon Tuitt was a 1st round lock for Brian Kelly as well had a sports hernia not ruined his junior season, causing him to drop into the 2nd round.
Don't even get me started with total numbers of draft picks between Weis and Kelly either. Player recruitment-development has been at a completely different level under BK than it was under CW.
Charlie Weis 1st round NFL Drafts Picks
QB: Brady Quinn (#22 overall, Cleveland).
WR: Michael Floyd (#8 overall, Arizona). - Weis gets half credit
Brian Kelly 1st round NFL Draft Picks
WR: Michael Floyd (#8 overall, Arizona). - Kelly gets half credit.
S: Harrison Smith (#29 overall, Minnesota).
TE: Tyler Eifert (#21 overall, Cincinnati).
OL: Zack Martin (#16 overall, Dallas).
OL: Ronnie Stanley- 1st round lock in 2016 draft next month.
LB: Jaylon Smith- 1st round lock in 2016 next month.
WR: Will Fuller- Trending towards 1st round pick next month.
Note: Stephon Tuitt was a 1st round lock for Brian Kelly as well had a sports hernia not ruined his junior season, causing him to drop into the 2nd round.
Don't even get me started with total numbers of draft picks between Weis and Kelly either. Player recruitment-development has been at a completely different level under BK than it was under CW.
You are correct about the 2 classes and I provided the rankings. So, if it makes you feel better weis had 3 top 10 classes in 5 years and kelly has had 2 in six.
weis was saddled with the # 92 recruit class in '04 and # 40 class in '05. Even with how horrible he was he made it to 2 BCS games and was within a "bushpush of NC consideration.
Lastly, as for player development. Here are the number of ND NFL draft picks per year by coach.
Prior to this year's draft kelly (4) is under performing willingham (4.66), davie (4.2) and outperforming weis (3.8) by .2 players selected in the NFL draft per annum.
He is almost 3 players per yer below Holtz (6.7)....
If he gets 6 players drafted this year he'll jump davie. With 8 he'll jump willingham.
CGVR,
What we've seen is a steady rate of increase in players drafted under Kelly's regime. That number is now skyrocketing now that "Weis recruits" are no longer in the program and Kelly has his guys. Case in point, this year Brian Kelly has 10 players at the NFL combine, tied with Ohio State for the most and it's looks as if 7 are a lock to be drafted (with an outside shot of up to 9)...
You can't look at a "per year" number of guys drafted, because that's highly skewed. You have to account for the fact that there are some years I which you barely have any seniors leaving, in comparison to other years. The only way you can get a real number that tells an unbiased story is to add up every recruit each coach had and divide that number by the number of players they had drafted on their watch. You would then have to come up with a way to equally credit coaches that overlapped multiple regimes... If you do that, Kelly, which is the only fair way, it's a HUGE advantage for Kelly over Weis.
Also, you seem to be grasping here... Your teling me that Weis was "saddled" with Willingham's and Davie's recruits, yet you're also telling me that their shitty recruiting yielded better draft results than Weis'??? Care to explain that if you're using numbers worth a damn?
What we've seen is a steady rate of increase in players drafted under Kelly's regime. That number is now skyrocketing now that "Weis recruits" are no longer in the program and Kelly has his guys. Case in point, this year Brian Kelly has 10 players at the NFL combine, tied with Ohio State for the most and it's looks as if 7 are a lock to be drafted (with an outside shot of up to 9)...
You can't look at a "per year" number of guys drafted, because that's highly skewed. You have to account for the fact that there are some years I which you barely have any seniors leaving, in comparison to other years. The only way you can get a real number that tells an unbiased story is to add up every recruit each coach had and divide that number by the number of players they had drafted on their watch. You would then have to come up with a way to equally credit coaches that overlapped multiple regimes... If you do that, Kelly, which is the only fair way, it's a HUGE advantage for Kelly over Weis.
Also, you seem to be grasping here... Your teling me that Weis was "saddled" with Willingham's and Davie's recruits, yet you're also telling me that their shitty recruiting yielded better draft results than Weis'??? Care to explain that if you're using numbers worth a damn?
And no that doesn't "make me feel better", because you are still using completely skewed numbers, from two separate composites, to come up with the 3 to 2 top 10 class difference... Instead of doing it the fair way and choosing an equal comparison such as Rivals rankings for both (because Rivals existed during both eras), but that doesn't fit your agenda...
In what world of intelligence, academia, business, etc, etc... Can you use an obviously flawed statistical comparison (using essentially two different databases) to prove your point and still feel like said point is accurate?
I gave you Rivals ranking numbers to be consistent with your following remark.
"ranked by Rivals the recruiting service that was (and still is by a some) considered the most accurate..."
Is it your contention that those ranking numbers are now "flawed" and not "the most accurate"?
The "real numbers" are the raw data for players drafted by the NFL year to year and kelly has been under performing all the former ND coaches I listed but weis to date.
You listed the following players:
Michael Floyd
Harrison Smith
Tyler Eifert
Zack Martin
Ronnie Stanley
Jaylon Smith
All but Stanley and Smith were recruited by weis. Plus, as an aside, Smith was adamant that he could care less if kelly had left. He was going to ND regardless of who was coaching.
At the end of the day there are players that are can't miss NFL stars regardless of who is coaching them.
Right now Hiestand, Sanford, the ND alum and perhaps a couple of others are the only coaches worth a rip on this staff. The bios I read on some of our coaches are comical. They love to take credit for any NFL talent that crosses their career paths. It's unattractive.
At the end of the day kelly needs a huge NFL draft this year to pass the annual NFL draft production of davie and willingham. He won't come near catching Holtz. Parse it anyway you like.
The numbers I had a problem with were your 247sports composite numbers that we're totally flawed for seasons I've already stated multiple times. If you're going to keep it standard with Rivals, then fine, that's apples-to-apples...
I also totally disagree with that ND doesn't have very good coaches on it's staff... Hiestand is among the best OL coaches in the country and Sanford is an up-and-coming star, as you conceded.
Mike Denbrock is the finest WR coach in the country and it probably isn't close... Look at his track record for producing pass catchers... Some of the guys he has personally coached in the past 10 years.
Anthony Fasano
John Carlson
Kyle Rudolph
Tyler Eifert
Michael Floyd
TJ Jones
DaVaris Daniels (would have been a good one)
Will Fuller
Denbrock is one of the finest position coaches in the game.
Also go look at the track record of Keith Gilmore. He's done some really impressive things over his career. Excellent, career, defensive line coach. As for Autry Denson, in his first year as a position coach, he produced the all time rookie rushing leader in Josh Adams with 865 yards rushing, breaking Jerome Heaven's record set in 1975, by more than 100 yards. And it's not like Denson rode Adams either. His leading rusher, C.J. Procise, is off to the NFL after rushing for 1032 yards and 11 TD's, after being converted to RB from WR. In Denson's first year, his two main backs combined for over 1900 yards rushing and 17 touchdowns. I don't know what, if any more Denson could have done as ND's first year RB coach.
I'm not a huge BVG fan, nor am I a huge Mike Elston fan (as a position coach) and I'm not sure about Todd Lyght yet, but otherwise, I think the majority of ND's assistants are fine coaches.
Also, of course no coach at ND is going to catch Lou Holtz. This isn't 1988 anymore. The slow death of Catholicism in America, combined with the massive population shift towards the southern, United States, means there are far fewer kids that are pre-disposed to ND's smaller, private, faith based, education than there use to be and the Mid West, Notre Dame's natural recruiting base is dying along with the population shift, giving ND fewer regional targets.
Lou was a great recruiter. His recruiting coordinator, Vinny Cerrato, was even better... But lets not pretend that they didn't have huge social-economic, religious and population distribution related factors in their favour, that no longer exist today.
Lou was a great recruiter. His recruiting coordinator, Vinny Cerrato, was even better... But lets not pretend that they didn't have huge social-economic, religious and population distribution related factors in their favour, that no longer exist today.
