ITS NOT LACK OF SCHEME, ITS LACK OF TALENT

[chaseball]

A coaching change isn't going to fix NDs problems ... a program culture change from the very top is the only thing that will make this program a perennial power again. It isn't a matter of hiring a better coach .. the problems goes way beyond that .. the question ND needs to answer/figure out is "how do we make this program/institution attractive to championship athletes again"?

Until that happens, enjoy 8-4 seasons. I'm amazed at the expectations everybody has going into the year every season ... my thoughts like groundhog day every fall/winter: "duh did you not see our mid teens recruiting class the last 3-4 years, with huge gaping holes in the front 7 and defensive backfield?"

 

[Java65]

Disagree completely. The talent of D may not be elite but its good. When you see LB not knowing their gap assignments that's scheme not talent. When you see DL not knowing where to line up, that's scheme not talent. When you see S and CB not knowing their coverage assignments that's scheme not talent. When you see the most poorly disguised blitzes that's scheme not talent.

On nearly every play you see 2-5 guys (and always different players) that don't understand their job on the play. The players can't just react (play fast) because they have to 'think' too much which makes them a fraction of a second slower. BVG defense has a 0% chance of working at ND.

 

[perseverare]

true: on the sidelines!

 

[justacollegefan]

Disagree completely. The talent of D may not be elite but its good. When you see LB not knowing their gap assignments that's scheme not talent. When you see DL not knowing where to line up, that's scheme not talent. When you see S and CB not knowing their coverage assignments that's scheme not talent. When you see the most poorly disguised blitzes that's scheme not talent.

On nearly every play you see 2-5 guys (and always different players) that don't understand their job on the play. The players can't just react (play fast) because they have to 'think' too much which makes them a fraction of a second slower. BVG defense has a 0% chance of working at ND.

You are completely delusional if you think our secondary players are close to being good... They were above average before the suspensions, get real! Still you want to fire BVG that is fine but I guarantee without huge recruits we still give up a lot of points and you will be crying for another new coach.

 

[BGI User 1596]

You are completely delusional if you think our secondary players are close to being good... They were above average before the suspensions, get real! Still you want to fire BVG that is fine but I guarantee without huge recruits we still give up a lot of points and you will be crying for another new coach.

Boston College with lesser recruits has the top d in the nation last year. Give us a break!

 

[perseverare]

talent is an issue: yes

when defensive top prospects openly say they worry about about BVG's D or as a coach, when 4-5 recruiting sessions conclude with a mediocre defensive class: this is the result.

Defensive players won't come.
Remember the words we read here all the time? win and they will come?
Lose and...well we see.

 

[Java65]

You are completely delusional if you think our secondary players are close to being good... They were above average before the suspensions, get real! Still you want to fire BVG that is fine but I guarantee without huge recruits we still give up a lot of points and you will be crying for another new coach.

Going into year 3... completely different players but the exact same mistakes, but hey, it's the players even though they are all different.

Nobody is saying that this is Bama type talent on defense but they are playing WAY below their level of talent.

Delusional is to keep replacing the parts, getting the same results, but never thinking the problem is the one constant.. the DC.

 

[chaseball]

When is the university administration going to match the fans enthusiasm for a ****ing winner? How many sold out stadiums at ridiculous ticket prices is it going to take for the staff to:

1. write a blank ****ing check and bring in a superstar coaching staff that lights a fire under the program the same way Harbaugh has for Michigan.
2. stop the ruse that these are "student athletes" ... accept that major college football in the 21st century is a minor league for the NFL. Quit lying to yourselves otherwise.
3. pump a ton of resources back into the FOOTBALL PROGRAM .. aggressively so. Stop using football resources to promote other ND sports that nobody gives a shit about.

 

[Java65]

When is the university administration going to match the fans enthusiasm for a ****ing winner? How many sold out stadiums at ridiculous ticket prices is it going to take for the staff to:

1. write a blank ****ing check and bring in a superstar coaching staff that lights a fire under the program the same way Harbaugh has for Michigan.
2. stop the ruse that these are "student athletes" ... accept that major college football in the 21st century is a minor league for the NFL. Quit lying to yourselves otherwise.
3. pump a ton of resources back into the FOOTBALL PROGRAM .. aggressively so. Stop using football resources to promote other ND sports that nobody gives a shit about.

You answered your own question. Why should they change at all when they keep filling the stadium, sell shirts and have high TV rating. The money is flowing in and they don't have to spend money or change their academic model 1 bit. Change will only come when the money stops flowing in.

 

[chaseball]

talent is an issue: yes

when defensive top prospects openly say they worry about about BVG's D or as a coach, when 4-5 recruiting sessions conclude with a mediocre defensive class: this is the result.

Defensive players won't come.
Remember the words we read here all the time? win and they will come?
Lose and...well we see.

NDs inability to attract top defensive athletes goes way back before the BVG hire.

I'm not saying BVG is a good coach and deserves to keep his job .. my point is that a coaching change without a culture change from the top is not going to make much difference.

The only reason ND dominated defensively in 2012 against a schedule full of weak offenses mind you ... is because NOBODY on the first team got hurt until the national championship game. That is luck you cannot count on.

 

[Izo]

Talent level, particularly on the defensive side of the ball, is nowhere close to some of the power teams in college football . ND is a college team outside of the top 10 . The DBs are not very good . Period. .The NFL has not drafted many Irish defensive players in the past few years .I can think of only Viking 's Harrison Smith as only true all pro player. Tuitt is becoming a star at Pittsburgh? Jaylon Smith could still be a star .Russell ?
The NFL's defensive teams are loaded with SEC players ,Ohio State , Florida State ,etc

I still hope we have a great season . Be rooting 1 game at a time .

 

[BGI User 1596]

Talent level, particularly on the defensive side of the ball, is nowhere close to some of the power teams in college football . ND is a college team outside of the top 10 . The DBs are not very good . Period. .The NFL has not drafted many Irish defensive players in the past few years .I can think of only Viking 's Harrison Smith as only true all pro player. Tuitt is becoming a star at Pittsburgh? Jaylon Smith could still be a star .Russell ?
The NFL's defensive teams are loaded with SEC players ,Ohio State , Florida State ,etc

I still hope we have a great season . Be rooting 1 game at a time .

Houston isn't a power team and that D looked fantastic against the Sooners and FSU. Less recruiting star power than ND.

 

[chaseball]

We need to stop making excuses, stop citing outliers/exceptions.

The teams that win enough games to get to the national championship and the teams that win national championships are the teams that won recruiting national championships leading up to them. This is an indisputable fact.

 

[perseverare]

Kelly's hope is the weak schedule will get him to, "the left over pasta bowl" and a segment of followers will break out pom poms: all will be well. Then: wash-repeat.

ND needs a charasmatic exciting personality that will resonate with recruits and other top coaches.

 

[Get Nasty]

Completely on board now...... need a new DC ASAP.......... Todd Lyght may need to go too.

Agree the talent isn't there to be a top 10 D, but it's there to be a top 25 D.

 

[stu4don]

NDs inability to attract top defensive athletes goes way back before the BVG hire.

I'm not saying BVG is a good coach and deserves to keep his job .. my point is that a coaching change without a culture change from the top is not going to make much difference.

The only reason ND dominated defensively in 2012 against a schedule full of weak offenses mind you ... is because NOBODY on the first team got hurt until the national championship game. That is luck you cannot count on.

Wrong. This is all about scheme and coaching. And if there is a recruiting problem bring in a d-coordinaor who can recruit. Diaco did it with similar talent. We are ND and sorry, we are not Oklahoma. Our student-athletes go to class, our student-athletes get degrees in high numbers. This is one lost in a hostile environment with a lot of new players (and after losing our best three or four (with Redfield) defensive players to the NFL. Last year it should have been clear BVG was not the guy, hell, the year before it was clear he didn't have the goods to coach at ND. Time for a change. We will be what I thought we'd be this year: 9-3 and will win a bowl.

 

[BGI User 1596]

Wrong. This is all about scheme and coaching. And if there is a recruiting problem bring in a d-coordinaor who can recruit. Diaco did it with similar talent. We are ND and sorry, we are not Oklahoma. Our student-athletes go to class, our student-athletes get degrees in high numbers. This is one lost in a hostile environment with a lot of new players (and after losing our best three or four (with Redfield) defensive players to the NFL. Last year it should have been clear BVG was not the guy, hell, the year before it was clear he didn't have the goods to coach at ND. Time for a change. We will be what I thought we'd be this year: 9-3 and will win a bowl.

Stanford plays better D than ND and its not even close on the academic side of things.

 

[justacollegefan]

Going into year 3... completely different players but the exact same mistakes, but hey, it's the players even though they are all different.

Nobody is saying that this is Bama type talent on defense but they are playing WAY below their level of talent.

Delusional is to keep replacing the parts, getting the same results, but never thinking the problem is the one constant.. the DC.

I seriously could careless if Kelly fired BVG but I'm saying people want to place 100% of the blame on him as if he were out there missing tackles or getting burned in the secondary. This is exactly why started a thread 2 weeks back discussing how many points we would need to win 10 games. It isn't hard, if you understand football, to see the lack of talent, depth, and experience on our defense and especially compared to our offense.

 

[justacollegefan]

Wrong. This is all about scheme and coaching. And if there is a recruiting problem bring in a d-coordinaor who can recruit. Diaco did it with similar talent. We are ND and sorry, we are not Oklahoma. Our student-athletes go to class, our student-athletes get degrees in high numbers. This is one lost in a hostile environment with a lot of new players (and after losing our best three or four (with Redfield) defensive players to the NFL. Last year it should have been clear BVG was not the guy, hell, the year before it was clear he didn't have the goods to coach at ND. Time for a change. We will be what I thought we'd be this year: 9-3 and will win a bowl.

Diaco had superior talent, how can you even start to say "similar?"

 

[chaseball]

Completely on board now...... need a new DC ASAP.......... Todd Lyght may need to go too.

Agree the talent isn't there to be a top 10 D, but it's there to be a top 25 D.

ND isn't competing for a top 25 spot ... they are competing with the very elite/best college football programs in the country for a playoff spot. That's the bar.

 

[Get Nasty]

ND isn't competing for a top 25 spot ... they are competing with the very elite/best college football programs in the country for a playoff spot. That's the bar.

A top 25 D, and a top 10-15 Offense gives you the opportunity to win a NC........... We aren't close on the D side, we're there on the O side.

 

[Get Nasty]

Diaco had superior talent, how can you even start to say "similar?"

So why do you think we had more talent then compared to now? Does it have something to do with who our DC is and how poor they play?

 

[chaseball]

ND has never been anywhere close to a top 10 offense ...

Yes the recruiting problems/program problems are more pronounced defensively but the offensive recruiting/performance although good isn't enough to carry a mediocre defense to a national championship.

When will the excuses stop?

Tired of this fan base and all the simpletons who won't accept the fact that NDs program can't attract the quality of athlete required to be a perennial contender any longer.

It isn't because BK didn't call a timeout one game, or went for a FG vs a 2pt conversion another game, or because BVG blitzed too many times.

ND is a 2nd tier program because it can only attract 2nd tier athletes. That's a fact.

 

[justacollegefan]

So why do you think we had more talent then compared to now? Does it have something to do with who our DC is and how poor they play?

No it has to do with the fact Diaco had several studs on defense that were big recruits!

 

[floridairish]

Kelly's hope is the weak schedule will get him to, "the left over pasta bowl" and a segment of followers will break out pom poms: all will be well. Then: wash-repeat.

ND needs a charasmatic exciting personality that will resonate with recruits and other top coaches.

And you are a snarky jerk who waves his Fire Kelly pom poms every time ND loses a ball game. You keep holding out hope for an "charasmatic exciting personality". Maybe ND should hire Ryan Seacrest to be the Head Football coach? Would that shut your miserable obnoxious negative mouth for 10 seconds?

This isn't a coach problem it's a culture problem. ND wants to compete for National Titles. FSU, Alabama and OSU demand it.

 

[perseverare]

defensively: this is the crux of the matter:
"ND is a 2nd tier program because it can only attract 2nd tier athletes. That's a fact...."

And where the buck stops the buck stops. The DC is here because he is on staff at the H.C.'s discretion.
The game plan was signed off on by the H.C.
Every single aspect: good bad right wrong: Head Coach. He cannot avoid that responsibility.
Not fault, it is the Peter Principle. < that now is the 'dead horse' debate here.

the line from the Broadway show, "Hair", 'our eyes are open, our eyes are open..."

 

[floridairish]

On a side note there's no reason ND can't recruit big sturdy bodies to stop the run and commit to not getting to ball thrown over there heads?

Wisconsin has been playing that style since Alvarez got there in 1990.

Diaco and his philosophy was the perfect fit at ND. And he never had this type of offense to help him.

 

[brian822]

ND has never been anywhere close to a top 10 offense ...

Yes the recruiting problems/program problems are more pronounced defensively but the offensive recruiting/performance although good isn't enough to carry a mediocre defense to a national championship.

When will the excuses stop?

Tired of this fan base and all the simpletons who won't accept the fact that NDs program can't attract the quality of athlete required to be a perennial contender any longer.

It isn't because BK didn't call a timeout one game, or went for a FG vs a 2pt conversion another game, or because BVG blitzed too many times.

ND is a 2nd tier program because it can only attract 2nd tier athletes. That's a fact.

spot on. ND continues to live on past glory and , outside of a few seasons, has not been relevant in a long time.

 

[perseverare]

the damage control gang is being dispensed and soon the board will be innundated with vulgarity and worse. They will try to alter your perception of events and even reality.

The problem for them now is, 'the truth has found you out'. Nothing supports the lies.

 

[chaseball]

On a side note there's no reason ND can't recruit big sturdy bodies to stop the run and commit to not getting to ball thrown over there heads?

Wisconsin has been playing that style since Alvarez got there in 1990.

Diaco and his philosophy was the perfect fit at ND. And he never had this type of offense to help him.

When is the last time Wisconsin won anything even remotely worthy of comparison to a program with NDs success/wealth/prestige?

 

[LH24ND]

Disagree completely. The talent of D may not be elite but its good. When you see LB not knowing their gap assignments that's scheme not talent. When you see DL not knowing where to line up, that's scheme not talent. When you see S and CB not knowing their coverage assignments that's scheme not talent. When you see the most poorly disguised blitzes that's scheme not talent.

On nearly every play you see 2-5 guys (and always different players) that don't understand their job on the play. The players can't just react (play fast) because they have to 'think' too much which makes them a fraction of a second slower. BVG defense has a 0% chance of working at ND.

Take a look at the U of Houston. Went to school there and follow the program. Not near the talent on defense as ND but they are very well coached and their D-coordinator and head coach have them play at a fever pitch. Huge ND fan but BK for whatever reason cannot get the defense fixed on his watch. They are average to poor every year. Sad to watch. Not a talent issue IMO at ND but coaching.
Love to be wrong but I see at least five losses this year. Wait till the usual injuries set it as they always do.

 

[NDCap]

When BVG says that Martini is the best option at LB that says a lot about his evaluation of talent or the lack of talent. IMO he has players out of position and players that should have been playing regardless of age:

1- Rochelle is an inside force . On the edge he gets no pass rush . When they go nickel he is lined up inside . Play D Hayes and Bonner at DE .
2 - Why is Avery the starting safety over Studstill ? You can see Studstill is going to be an excellent player. Tranquill ? Did he get hurt ? Benched ?
3- Martini ? Play Coney .

I don't think BVG has a good feel of personnel and is a lousy recruiter. That equates to this being his last year.

 

[Houston Wildcat]

A coaching change isn't going to fix NDs problems ... a program culture change from the very top is the only thing that will make this program a perennial power again. It isn't a matter of hiring a better coach .. the problems goes way beyond that .. the question ND needs to answer/figure out is "how do we make this program/institution attractive to championship athletes again"?

Until that happens, enjoy 8-4 seasons. I'm amazed at the expectations everybody has going into the year every season ... my thoughts like groundhog day every fall/winter: "duh did you not see our mid teens recruiting class the last 3-4 years, with huge gaping holes in the front 7 and defensive backfield?"

Complete Bullshite.
Although a culture change would most definitely help, so would a coaching change.
It's not like ND has fared poorly in recruiting under Kelly.....by any metric.
Are they recruiting as well as Bama, OSU, Florida St.? Hell no, but they are most definitely recruiting well enough to avoid the embarrassment that was ND football last night, as well as so many other games
in Kelly's tenure.

 

[justacollegefan]

On a side note there's no reason ND can't recruit big sturdy bodies to stop the run and commit to not getting to ball thrown over there heads?

Wisconsin has been playing that style since Alvarez got there in 1990.

Diaco and his philosophy was the perfect fit at ND. And he never had this type of offense to help him.

Alvarez was one of the best defensive coaches, if not the best, in college football when he was around. Diaco had one of the best Irish defensive squads in 2012 that we have ever seen, so yes talent makes a difference. Again I am not saying BVG isn't at fault but to say it is all his fault is the issue I have. Same goes for the people blaming Kelly but fail to acknowledge he has never had a solid starting QB until now, his 7th season. Imagine the offense we have now to go with that 2012 defense! Anyway if Kelly fires BVG now I wouldn't be upset but unless you have someone like Alvarez to come in then how good will this defense improve? Hey the best way to look at things is that these young kids will only improve, and why I said in the thread I started 2 weeks back that 2017 looked more promising for a NC run.

 

[chaseball]

The problems with NDs defense go way beyond an out of position martini/rochell or who is starting at defensive back.

The problems with NDs defense is the gaping holes in the recruiting classes in the front 7 and defensive backfield for the majority of the BK era. BK is the head coach and is largely responsible for NDs success/failures on the recruiting trail.

I don't understand how this fan base does not make the connection between quality of athlete and success on the field. It's mind boggling.

 

[eagledad04]

Boston College with lesser recruits has the top d in the nation last year. Give us a break!

Yes, BC led the nation in total defense last year and imo, after playing us at Fenway and seeing his defense first hand, ND should have jumped ahead and hired Don Brown away from BC before Harbaugh made his move. Missed opportunity. Sad.

 

[chaseball]

Complete Bullshite.
Although a culture change would most definitely help, so would a coaching change.
It's not like ND has fared poorly in recruiting under Kelly.....by any metric.
Are they recruiting as well as Bama, OSU, Florida St.? Hell no, but they are most definitely recruiting well enough to avoid the embarrassment that was ND football last night, as well as so many other games
in Kelly's tenure.

NDs not recruiting as well as Bama, OSU, Florida St, Clemson, Ole Miss, Texas, Auburn, USC, etc. etc.

Where is this idea that ND is doing a good job on the recruiting trail coming from?

ND recruits 3 positions well and are stacked in these groups as a result: offensive line, tight end, quarterback

Everywhere else is hugely inconsistent to downright terrible for a program of NDs prestige/brand.

 

[Houston Wildcat]

You are completely delusional if you think our secondary players are close to being good... They were above average before the suspensions, get real! Still you want to fire BVG that is fine but I guarantee without huge recruits we still give up a lot of points and you will be crying for another new coach.

Whose fault is it if the secondary isn't good?
Who recruits theses players? Who coaches them?
Yes, a lot of it is on the player themselves, but it's not like ND is devoid of talent there.
And based on everything we have witnessed for the last three years, having 5 star Max Redfield wouldn't
have helped much either.

I agree with you that ND's talent needs to improve, but their coaching (or lack thereof) has to
improve more so.

 

[Java65]

Alvarez was one of the best defensive coaches, if not the best, in college football when he was around. Diaco had one of the best Irish defensive squads in 2012 that we have ever seen, so yes talent makes a difference. Again I am not saying BVG isn't at fault but to say it is all his fault is the issue I have. Same goes for the people blaming Kelly but fail to acknowledge he has never had a solid starting QB until now, his 7th season. Imagine the offense we have now to go with that 2012 defense! Anyway if Kelly fires BVG now I wouldn't be upset but unless you have someone like Alvarez to come in then how good will this defense improve? Hey the best way to look at things is that these young kids will only improve, and why I said in the thread I started 2 weeks back that 2017 looked more promising for a NC run.

If the Kelly excuse is going to be that in 6 years he hasn't had a good QB than that is an admission of failure by Kelly. For the record I think Kelly would never say that nor do I think he believes that.

Kelly is a great program builder but he is an average game day coach. Kelly seem's capable of only fixing one unit each year while the others fail. Either the defense is really good and the offense is terrible or it's the other way around. The ST has always been average at best.

Again, talent on defense isn't great but it is good and has been under performing for 2 years now.

Either way Kelly got a contract extension, they win at least 8 games a year, they are selling out the games, TV ratings are good and ND sells a lot of merchandise so I'm not expecting any changes in the near future. I doubt they want to spend too much by paying BVG and then hiring another DC which is part of the reason I think we kept him this year.

 

[Java65]

NDs not recruiting as well as Bama, OSU, Florida St, Clemson, Ole Miss, Texas, Auburn, USC, etc. etc.

Where is this idea that ND is doing a good job on the recruiting trail coming from?

ND recruits 3 positions well and are stacked in these groups as a result: offensive line, tight end, quarterback

Everywhere else is hugely inconsistent to downright terrible for a program of NDs prestige/brand.

Nobody says the defense should be as good as those schools but if you are grading their defensive recruiting you'd have to give them at least C+ and their performance on the field an F.

Also, I think ND has recruited well at WR, RB and LB. Our only real issues in recruiting have been DL and DB.