Honest question: Why does ND struggle to recruit RBs these days?

[chaseball]

ND usually has one of the better offensive lines in the country most years. Why is it such a struggle to get gamebreakers at RB over the last several years? With NDs prestige & OL reputation, top 100/50/25 prospects at RB should be beating down the doors to play RB at ND. Instead it's rare we get any RB commitments in the top 100, and mostly get LOIs from prospects way down in the ~200-300 (low to mid 4 star range).

Any thoughts?

 

[mirer03]

Not many recent successes on getting rbs to the NFL has to play a role.

 

[savvyandsassier]

I think we do fine at RB.

 

[francade]

Kyren Williams may have only been a 3 star but he played like a 5 star. RB isn’t the reason ND doesn’t win bigger.

 

[chaseball]

Kyren Williams may have only been a 3 star but he played like a 5 star. RB isn’t the reason ND doesn’t win bigger.

There's a lot more upside at the RB position in college football than what ND is getting out of it currently.

Kyren Williams was a rare diamond in the ruff who otherwise masked a seriously mediocre stable of RBs on the depth chart. We need to start recruiting some gamebreakers there, and not relying on hitting the lotto with another Kyren Williams.

 

[francade]

So what years do you think we’ve been so void of talent at RB that it cost us more than other positions did?

 

[francade]

“There's a lot more upside at the RB position in college football than what ND is getting out of it currently.”

Was there a lot more “upside” at the RB position in college football than what kyren Williams did for us the last couple seasons? If so, not too much, and he certainly wasn’t the reason we didn’t win bigger.

 

[mirer03]

There is a difference between top 200 backs and top 20 backs. Not all 5 stars work out, but it's a good indicator. Is it the weakest part of the team? No. Doesn't mean we can't do better

 

[savvyandsassier]

There's a lot more upside at the RB position in college football than what ND is getting out of it currently.

Kyren Williams was a rare diamond in the ruff who otherwise masked a seriously mediocre stable of RBs on the depth chart. We need to start recruiting some gamebreakers there, and not relying on hitting the lotto with another Kyren Williams.

Alright, then. Thank you, chase ball! I will pass this on, I will relay this up the ladder, and make sure it gets to the desk of one Marcus Freeman, post haste!

And then we can all rest assured that he will be on the mother! And we'll be right as rain.....

 

[francade]

Also doesn’t mean it has any bearing on us winning bigger.

 

[francade]

Kyren’s play was the reason we were as good as we were, not a reason for holding us back is my point.

 

[mirer03]

Kyren’s play was the reason we were as good as we were, not a reason for holding us back is my point.

And if someone better than kyren was there is it not also logical that we may have won more?

Again, rb recruiting isn't bad, but imagine an Ezekiel Elliot or Derrick Henry in the backfield. I love kyren, but that's a different team

 

[chaseball]

“There's a lot more upside at the RB position in college football than what ND is getting out of it currently.”

Was there a lot more “upside” at the RB position in college football than what kyren Williams did for us the last couple seasons? If so, not too much, and he certainly wasn’t the reason we didn’t win bigger.

ND should have star RB prospects (top 100 types, 3-5 deep) on the depth chart at any given time all vying for the starting role, all capable of filling a role at an elite level, all capable of stepping in, or developing individually into a star player, and maximizing the amount of production at the position in college football at Notre Dame.

WR recruiting has been sub par but so has RB recruiting but RB recruiting isn't getting anywhere near the amount of heat it deserves for some reason.

My question is why isn't ND recruiting higher end talent at the position given the fact that ND does extremely well at offensive line?

If I'm a young star prospect at RB, running for ND behind Joe Alt, Blake Fisher, Rocco Spindler, and others would seem like a great career opportunity.

ND can and should be doing way better than they currently are in terms of the talent at RB on the roster.

And Kyren was a beast, but after him and Chris Tyree, the position group fell off a cliff and now Kyren is gone and it's only Chris Tyree and a couple of 3-4 star dudes.

 

[chaseball]

To add to my last post: When ND can't run the ball, everybody blames the offensive line, but our 3 & 4 star RBs, going against 4 & 5 star fronts don't ever seem to get pointed out for some reason.

 

[chaseball]

So what years do you think we’ve been so void of talent at RB that it cost us more than other positions did?

The position has been lacking the kind of star power worthy of ND since Weis' recruits at the position graduated.

During the latter half of the BK era, which we're still dealing with in the early years of the MF era, ND has gotten some nice production from some underappreciated prospects, but the position still lacks real star power and depth on par with the modern powers in cfb. And it is a big gap.

 

[Golson5]

Tyree was a top 100 player

Estime, Price and Payne were all 4 stars

We're going to land Love most likely and hes top 100

RB is fine

 

[BGI User 756]

ND usually has one of the better offensive lines in the country most years. Why is it such a struggle to get gamebreakers at RB over the last several years? With NDs prestige & OL reputation, top 100/50/25 prospects at RB should be beating down the doors to play RB at ND. Instead it's rare we get any RB commitments in the top 100, and mostly get LOIs from prospects way down in the ~200-300 (low to mid 4 star range).

Any thoughts?

Untimely post when the last 3 cycles have been strong. RB room has talent, some injuries currently

 

[chaseball]

Untimely post when the last 3 cycles have been strong. RB room has talent, some injuries currently

What do you mean "strong"?

ND has 3 & 4 star players at RB, and the teams winning national titles have 4.5 & 5 star players at RB, to go along with their 4.5 & 5 star front 7s that eat up NDs 3 & 4 star RBs.

 

[chaseball]

RB is fine

Fine isn't fine when you are trying to win a 2 game playoff vs the likes of OSU, TAMU, Bama, Georgia, Clemson, etc.

 

[NDSMC78]

What do you mean "strong"?

ND has 3 & 4 star players at RB, and the teams winning national titles have 4.5 & 5 star players at RB, to go along with their 4.5 & 5 star front 7s that eat up NDs 3 & 4 star RBs.

The sky is falling. The sky is falling. The sky is falling.

Chase has once again graced us with his panicked presence.

 

[chaseball]

I don't understand why we can't have an honest discussion about gaping holes in the roster (like at RB) and a serious lack of talent relative to the top teams in the country at the position. Why does this conversation trigger so many people?

Only way to enact change is to discuss it and bring it to light.

Instead all of the post game analysis from the "experts" about the poor running game is about scheme and offensive line play when our offensive line is loaded most years with super star players that get drafted in the first half of the NFL draft, and our RBs are 3 & 4 star guys who lack elite athleticism and production.

 

[Granite45]

Only way to enact change is to discuss it and bring it to light.

No change going to happen because of any "discussion" on a fan/spectator forum.

 

[chaseball]

No change going to happen because of any "discussion" on a fan/spectator forum.

Change happens when ideas are brought to light, regardless of the medium.

 

[NDSMC78]

I don't understand why we can't have an honest discussion about gaping holes in the roster (like at RB) and a serious lack of talent relative to the top teams in the country at the position. Why does this conversation trigger so many people?

Only way to enact change is to discuss it and bring it to light.

Instead all of the post game analysis from the "experts" about the poor running game is about scheme and offensive line play when our offensive line is loaded most years with super star players that get drafted in the first half of the NFL draft, and our RBs are 3 & 4 star guys who lack elite athleticism and production.

You have been posting here for a long time, albeit under multiple handles. The one common theme running through about 95% of your posts is bad mouthing ND's talent. Over and over and over, you have maintained ND did not have five star talent in this area or in that area. The one thing you seem to focus on, to the exclusion of all others, is that ND's talent level needs to be upgraded. Mind you, ND has gone to one NC game and two other playoffs in the past decade, but you still criticize the talent level.
Now you have chosen to criticize the RB's. Marcus Freeman joined the coaching staff, on the defensive side, a little more than a year ago. Now he is coaching his first full season as head coach. How about letting Freeman have a chance to coach more than one game before you bad mouth the talent level of the kids now playing?

 

[mirer03]

I don't understand why we can't have an honest discussion about gaping holes in the roster (like at RB) and a serious lack of talent relative to the top teams in the country at the position. Why does this conversation trigger so many people?

Only way to enact change is to discuss it and bring it to light.

Instead all of the post game analysis from the "experts" about the poor running game is about scheme and offensive line play when our offensive line is loaded most years with super star players that get drafted in the first half of the NFL draft, and our RBs are 3 & 4 star guys who lack elite athleticism and production.

I agree they can get better at rb, but in no way is it a gaping hole. Wr is a gaping hole. Corner back has been a gaping hole, although Morrison looked great.

 

[BGI User 756]

What do you mean "strong"?

ND has 3 & 4 star players at RB, and the teams winning national titles have 4.5 & 5 star players at RB, to go along with their 4.5 & 5 star front 7s that eat up NDs 3 & 4 star RBs.

They are all 4 stars and above, the offensive position we lack talent to make playoff is at WR not RB

 

[BGI User 756]

Change happens when ideas are brought to light, regardless of the medium.

Get over yourself

 

[savvyandsassier]

Change happens when ideas are brought to light, regardless of the medium.

Another thing you do is resort to this sort of melodramatic rhetoric. For some reason, in this forum of all places, you try to use the language, and the verbal stylings of progressive change or some shit.... . in order to justify your dreary mewling about how we don't have enough super-elite blue-chip recruits on the roster.

So that is kind of an offensive juxtaposition, in addition to being as mind-numbing as always. Especially when MF has a top three class going, and that's not good enough for you?

 

[francade]

“And if someone better than kyren was there is it not also logical that we may have won more?

Again, rb recruiting isn't bad, but imagine an Ezekiel Elliot or Derrick Henry in the backfield. I love kyren, but that's a different team”

if Elliot or Henry were running into no holes, they wouldn’t be able to do anything either. That’s my point. The difference between Kyren and zeke (in college) isn’t as big as the other gaps we have, namely wrs & corners. We’ve had some good ones, but the teams winning nowadays have better ones & more of them. Corners may be the biggest gap, imo. And our o-line rarely steps up against the best teams. It’s been a collective failure from all players (qb, o-line, wr, LBs, DL, corners) when we go against the best. But, imo, RB is the least of our worries when comparing to other position groups.

 

[francade]

“I don't understand why we can't have an honest discussion about gaping holes in the roster (like at RB) and a serious lack of talent relative to the top teams in the country at the position. Why does this conversation trigger so many people?”

Why are you being “honest” about our RB situation and whoever disagrees w/ you isn’t? And who’s “triggered”? You say we have a gaping hole at RB because we don’t have any 5 stars. I responded by saying kyren played like a 5 star. I don’t give a shit what he does in the pros, or how many stars some recruiting service gave him coming out of high school, he was great in college for us. It wasn’t a “gaping hole” when he was playing for us just because he wasn’t on some list of 5 stars. RB, while he was playing, was not a “gaping hole” for us. That’s made up BS.

 

[HDK]

This is a bit off-topic, but one of the incredible things about Notre Dame under Kelly was the number of 80-plus yard TD runs by our running backs.

For years, Eric Pennick's 85-yard run against USC in '73 was it. That stadium record was broken by Denard Robinson of Michigan in 2010, I think, but starting with CJ Prosise's 91-yard run against Georgia Tech in 2015, there have been at least one of those every season.

 

[wi_hoosier]

I don't understand why we can't have an honest discussion about gaping holes in the roster (like at RB) and a serious lack of talent relative to the top teams in the country at the position. Why does this conversation trigger so many people?

Only way to enact change is to discuss it and bring it to light.

Instead all of the post game analysis from the "experts" about the poor running game is about scheme and offensive line play when our offensive line is loaded most years with super star players that get drafted in the first half of the NFL draft, and our RBs are 3 & 4 star guys who lack elite athleticism and production.

So here is my honest discussion...

Taking a look at the the 2022 Top 100 (I would bet other years are similar), I did not see a single 5* RB. So I do not believe that others are stocked with 4.5 & 5* RBs. The RB position has been significantly devalued in the last 15 years, also leads me to believe that there is less than a handful if any RBs that are 5*. So I will start there.

Yes, ND has had great lines that should entice RBs, but so does Bama, UGA, O$U and Bucky... every year. Now you add that those three have also put RBs into the NFL that have had news worthy success and it is a recipe for them to get those rare "elite" RBs over ND. Jonathan Taylor was only a 3* recruit BTW. Another note about those three, they all run a closer NFL style offense than what ND did under BK, IMHO. That makes it more attractive for NFL type of RBs and QBs alike.

Could ND get a better production or NFL type of RBs, yes. But you really answered it yourself. It didn't happen regularly for whatever reason (offensive scheme, RB recruiter, etc) under BK. The new RB coach has been on staff for less than one recruiting cycle and the OC is working under a new HC system. So let's see if that changes.

 

[SubwaydomerDFW]

RB has been fine unless you’re comparing to Alabama.

must have missed the memo on dominant O Line play..

 

[BGI User 756]

I guess honest discussion stops when one’s invalid arguments are exposed

 

[ivan brunetti]

Who has been in charge of your RB recruiting the past half dozen or so years? One mediocre recruiter can lead to a weak position group.

 

[Pennick4]

ND usually has one of the better offensive lines in the country most years. Why is it such a struggle to get gamebreakers at RB over the last several years? With NDs prestige & OL reputation, top 100/50/25 prospects at RB should be beating down the doors to play RB at ND. Instead it's rare we get any RB commitments in the top 100, and mostly get LOIs from prospects way down in the ~200-300 (low to mid 4 star range).

Any thoughts?

I think it is Trump's fault.

 

[IrishMike409]

Tyree was a top 100 player

Estime, Price and Payne were all 4 stars

We're going to land Love most likely and hes top 100

RB is fine

Why have we struggled to run vs Top 15 Teams? Is it scheme? OL? Strength and conditioning? RBs?

Or am I misguided in my stance we can’t run, and therefore can’t really win the Top 15 matchups??

 

[chaseball]

This is a bit off-topic, but one of the incredible things about Notre Dame under Kelly was the number of 80-plus yard TD runs by our running backs.

For years, Eric Pennick's 85-yard run against USC in '73 was it. That stadium record was broken by Denard Robinson of Michigan in 2010, I think, but starting with CJ Prosise's 91-yard run against Georgia Tech in 2015, there have been at least one of those every season.

This was really interesting to find out, good post. Liked.

BK was crazy good at getting consistently solid production from the run game with position transfers, and lower rated players, and developing lower rated/underappreciated prospects into NFL draft picks. I think BKs offensive lines/system helped increase the illusion of the quality of RBs though, based on those same RBs not really having any draft stock or NFL careers once they left.

Part of being a head coach in college is creating a program and culture that attracts super talented athletes, and that is the part where Kelly failed (and that Marcus Freeman is trying to rebuild). You gotta have both the traditional head coach skills but also a lot of charisma and personality that talented kids with a choice to go anywhere want to be around for the next 3-5 years. And Marcus Freeman seems to be that dude. Hopefully he's half the program builder/manager/executive BK was, because if so, MF could be really good.

Can you imagine if BK was also an elite recruiter and had some combination of Reggie Bush + Mike Williams at the offensive skill positions like Pete Carroll had at USC? That kind of star power was elusive during the entire BK era (once Weis players graduated) though which is ultimately what limited the program's upside under BK and it's going to take several years to really turn the ship around under MF as it relates to acquiring talent.

 

[IrishMike409]

This was really interesting to find out, good post. Liked.

BK was crazy good at getting consistently solid production from the run game with position transfers, and lower rated players, and developing lower rated/underappreciated prospects into NFL draft picks. I think BKs offensive lines/system helped increase the illusion of the quality of RBs though, based on their lack of draft stock, but I digress.

Part of being a head coach in college is creating a program and culture that attracts super talented athletes, and that is the part where\e Kelly failed. You gotta have both the traditional head coach skills but also a lot of charisma and personality that talented kids with a choice to go anywhere want to be around for the next 3-5 years.

Can you imagine if BK was also an elite recruiter and had some combination of Reggie Bush + Mike Williams at the offensive skill positions like Pete Carroll had at USC?

That kind of star power was elusive during the entire BK era though which is ultimately what limited the program's upside under him.

Agree that guys like CJ, Kyren, Jonas Gray, and Josh Adams were good players under Kelly….but why can’t we run in big games? We play Top 15 teams and the run game feels non-existent.

If we can’t run vs those teams, then I don’t believe we can win.

 

[chaseball]

Agree that guys like CJ, Kyren, Jonas Gray, and Josh Adams were good players under Kelly….but why can’t we run in big games?

You are asking the question that I'm giving the answer to in this very topic: Lack of talent.