For Those Of You That Don't Think Recruiting Rankings Matter

[IrishInOntario]

Alabama just won its 4th national title in 7 years... Not surprisingly, given that they finish at or near the top of the recruiting rankings every single year.

I think a lot of people are hellbent on ignoring that obvious correlations between top notch recruiting success and winning at the highest level. Please, please, please, stop taking the minority exceptions and making them the rule.

Recruiting has become a very well covered business. Kids get missed or course, or improperly evaluated at time. We also cannot predict a desire to succeed or his work ethic... Recruiting matters. Landing as many top players, with the ideal athleticism, football instincts and physical tools matters.

The recipe is simple in theory and difficult in execution...

Prolonged high level recruiting + quality coaching + veteran leadership = success.

Notre Dame has quality coaching (although I'm not a BVG fan) and generally has good leadership. ND needs to be more consistent in its recruiting effort going forward. It's not good enough to finish with a top 8 class one year and be ranked 17th or 18th the next. That will get you a bunch of quality, 9-4, 10-3 seasons. The recruiting effort at every position has to produce top tier talent each year.

For every "diamond in the rough" that develops into a star, there are dozens of others that simply remain average players.

If ND can close by landing a Jeff McColough, Caleb Kelly or Demetris Roberston, they take another step in the right direction. Land of 2 of the 3 and you're taking a long stride in the right direction.

It wasn't an accident that ND played for a national championship in 2012. That defence that carried them into that game was built on the backs of a front 7 that was comprised in its entirely of 5 four star players and two five star players.

 

[Telx1]

IIO..I fully agree with this as a general rule of thumb over the course of several seasons. However, I do take exception with those who write the team's chances off solely based on their recruiting ranking in a given year. As you note, there are exceptions and lots of other variables that come into play. But, get a top five class year after year and the chances of playing for and winning the NC goes up accordingly.

 

[Nocalirish]

Bama is the best team money can buy.

 

[SALittleGiant513]

But michigan st has terrible recruiting numbers.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Telx1,

I don't think ND needs a top 5 class every year... A top 8-10 class will put them in the yearly conversation. More importantly, however, is recruiting balance. Meaning ND cannot load up at WR and OL every year and have the strength of their class built on those two positions and expect to compete for a title. Take the best players you can get, of course, but the DL (for example) needs to recruit at a similar level as the OL, or ND will never field a balanced team.

 

[IrishInOntario]

And, understandably, Michigan State has the same number of national titles and one less national title game appearance than Notre Dame over the past decade.

 

[SALittleGiant513]

Fair enough I was joking. Exception and rules.

 

[IrishInOntario]

I caught the sarcasm, I was building on it. My apologies if you didn't read it that way!

Cheers!

 

[bizzybecknd]

I'm just wondering where the hell LSU, Florida, A&M, Tennessee, Ole Miss, Georgia, USC, have been the last few years? Seems to me, relating Alabama's success strictly to recruiting is the exception. These teams all recruit consistently in the top 10 and haven't done squat.

 

[IrishInOntario]

LSU: Has battled Alabama for supremacy in its division the SEC. Somebody has to win. Alabama has been better.

Florida: Will Muschamp turned out to be a poor hire to replace Urban Meyer and Florida State took over as the top in state recruiter. FSU won a championship under Jimbo in doing so.

Texas A&M: Coaching issue. Defensive recruiting hasn't come close to matching the offensive recruiting success.

Tennessee: How many coaches have the Vols had in the past 6-8 years? I've stopped counting.

Ole Miss: Like LSU, they've battled, in the toughest conference in the country. Alabama has been better.

Georgia: Mark Richt did less, with more, than any close in the country... For a long time. Great guy. Good football coach. Urban Meyer was better at Florida. Nick Saban has been better at Alabama.

USC: Faced sanctions and the results of those sanctions, which really hurt their depth. They also hired a coach who turned out to be a drunk and got himself fired.

Come on man, a quick look at all of the examples you gave shows glaring issues within those programs...

If you're going to cherry pick teams, how about Florida State, Ohio State and Alabama...

All 3 recruit top classes each year and they also have stability in their coaching because they have excellent coaches... Like I said, it's a 3 principled philosophy. You can't be missing one of the three and hope to win.

Notre Dame has a good coaching staff and good leadership... But their recruiting has not been even and balanced.

 

[BGI User 1596]

And, understandably, Michigan State has the same number of national titles and one less national title game appearance than Notre Dame over the past decade.

Exactly - the profundity of your message is self evident to any serious fan.

 

[tkirish]

Alabama just won its 4th national title in 7 years... Not surprisingly, given that they finish at or near the top of the recruiting rankings every single year.

I think a lot of people are hellbent on ignoring that obvious correlations between top notch recruiting success and winning at the highest level. Please, please, please, stop taking the minority exceptions and making them the rule.

Recruiting has become a very well covered business. Kids get missed or course, or improperly evaluated at time. We also cannot predict a desire to succeed or his work ethic... Recruiting matters. Landing as many top players, with the ideal athleticism, football instincts and physical tools matters.

The recipe is simple in theory and difficult in execution...

Prolonged high level recruiting + quality coaching + veteran leadership = success.

Notre Dame has quality coaching (although I'm not a BVG fan) and generally has good leadership. ND needs to be more consistent in its recruiting effort going forward. It's not good enough to finish with a top 8 class one year and be ranked 17th or 18th the next. That will get you a bunch of quality, 9-4, 10-3 seasons. The recruiting effort at every position has to produce top tier talent each year.

For every "diamond in the rough" that develops into a star, there are dozens of others that simply remain average players.

If ND can close by landing a Jeff McColough, Caleb Kelly or Demetris Roberston, they take another step in the right direction. Land of 2 of the 3 and you're taking a long stride in the right direction.

It wasn't an accident that ND played for a national championship in 2012. That defence that carried them into that game was built on the backs of a front 7 that was comprised in its entirely of 5 four star players and two five star players.

Though I agree with your assessment, it is quite obvious that NDs chances of landing a top 5 class for 4 or 5 years in a row is extremely difficult. One, they are limited in who they can take due to their own high academic restrictions. Second, I feel now more than ever "elte" players are going to schools that don't require as much academically as ND would. ND will not lower their standards do I won't even bother with suggesting that happen. However I have followed Notre Dame football for over 40 years. I've seen great Irish teams and putrid Irish teams. I am by no means an expert nor do I think my opinion is above anyone else's. So without going into great detail I will simply say that I like Brian Kelly and he is a very good coach. I also feel the style of football he plays will not win a championship for Notre a Dame.

All the great Irish teams have been teams that run first and play solid defense and very good special teams. Notre Dame has a very difficult time getting elte defensive linemen. Also on the other side they always can get elite offensive linemen. The can get great QBs if the style of football is right. Stanford has basically become what ND use to be. ND can win championships again if they recruit to their strengths. They don't need to be Baylor or FSU or Oregon. A big strong line, with a very good QB and tough running backs, they can win a lot of games. I only skimming the surface but that is the basic point. Spread it out and chuck it all over is not a formula for top success. Football is still won on a basic premise. Play solid defense, don't turn the ball over, strong special teams and win the battle in the trenches. For me that is how ND always won. It wasn't flashy, but it worked.

 

[LongTimeSooner]

Recruiting services and star ratings are a false economy.

Finding the right pieces that compose the best team might correlate to star ratings, but they might not.

Very seldom are intangibles like effort, coach-ability, and toughness reflected in recruiting ratings. We all can furnish lists of big-name, 4 and 5 star recruits that have done nothing of significance once they suited up.

 

[Harpo Marxist]

ND has to recruit to dominate and control the trenches on both sides of the ball. (See Bama) NDs championship teams did that. Obviously, the O line is adequate...but it can't take advantage of its strength if ND doesn't commit to running the football....(See Bama) A formidable defensive front with speed and power combined with depth is required (See Bama).

 

[Java65]

I think on factor that cannot be overlooked is that the Bama program is essentially a semi-pro team. Those players are there to eat, sleep and breath football. Academics are a very distant second and that's something ND will never be able to compete with.

 

[perseverare]

there should not be a single informed poster contending this issue. The data is overwhelming.

 

[Walruzz]

But michigan st has terrible recruiting numbers.

I'm not inclined to spend another minute on this verifying the truth of it, but ESPN stated in an article that MSU has an above average % of 5th year seniors starting on both lines. If this is true, it certainly stands to reason why MSU can buck the trend by squeezing every drop of value out of 4-5 years of practice, conditioning and training. They are well coached, and very efficient, even if they are not flashy and "talented".

 

[bizzybecknd]

LSU: Has battled Alabama for supremacy in its division the SEC. Somebody has to win. Alabama has been better.

Florida: Will Muschamp turned out to be a poor hire to replace Urban Meyer and Florida State took over as the top in state recruiter. FSU won a championship under Jimbo in doing so.

Texas A&M: Coaching issue. Defensive recruiting hasn't come close to matching the offensive recruiting success.

Tennessee: How many coaches have the Vols had in the past 6-8 years? I've stopped counting.

Ole Miss: Like LSU, they've battled, in the toughest conference in the country. Alabama has been better.

Georgia: Mark Richt did less, with more, than any close in the country... For a long time. Great guy. Good football coach. Urban Meyer was better at Florida. Nick Saban has been better at Alabama.

USC: Faced sanctions and the results of those sanctions, which really hurt their depth. They also hired a coach who turned out to be a drunk and got himself fired.

Come on man, a quick look at all of the examples you gave shows glaring issues within those programs...

If you're going to cherry pick teams, how about Florida State, Ohio State and Alabama...

All 3 recruit top classes each year and they also have stability in their coaching because they have excellent coaches... Like I said, it's a 3 principled philosophy. You can't be missing one of the three and hope to win.

Notre Dame has a good coaching staff and good leadership... But their recruiting has not been even and balanced.

Hmm, seems to me like 'coaching' is at the root of most of these issues...And it seems 2/3 (Bucks/Bama) just happen to have 2 of the best all-time coaches. Posters continually point to two teams who ND aspires to win like - Bama and Oh St. These guys absolutely recruit well but I think coaching is the biggest factor here. Not disputing the major importance of recruiting, I think ND has recruited well enough to compete and they have competed at a high level; comparable to the next 10 teams in the country.. These two teams have separated themselves from the pack and while recruiting is a huge factor, I think coaching is the biggest. BK is a top 10 college coach in my opinion but these two are legends.

 

[IrishInOntario]

And Florida State? They've been damn good under Jimbo Fisher, who is a good coach, but not at the Meyer / Saban level, IMO. FSU have been dominant recruiters in recent years, however.... Urban Meyer leaving Florida and Miami turning into a mess of a program, allowed FSU to take advantage of the talent pool housed arguably the most talent rich state in America.

 

[IrishInOntario]

How about Clemson? They played in the game last night. They've had consistent coaching for more than half a decade now... But more importantly, they've become great recruiters and bring plenty of talent in each year.

 

[hvillebill]

IIO - Alabama has without a doubt one of the best coaches of all time. Sure, the recruiting rankings matter, but at the end of the day that talent has to be developed. The combination of the two is lethal.

Ole Miss has really done well in recruiting also, but they're not finishing at the top. Freeze can bring them in but can't get them to finish the job.

 

[bizzybecknd]

I think you need to recruit in that top 10-12 group and I think the talent on those teams is good enough to win/compete for a championship in any given year. Obviously you need a lot of bounces/luck, selection committee favor during the course of a year. If you watched the games this year and think the talent gap was the reason ND didn't go 13-0, then I just flat out disagree. I've seen the talent gap at ND before, the teams BK is fielding don't lack talent. ND can't afford to lose 15-20 guys off the two deep from spring to fall and expect to beat Ohio St.

Zaire
Golson
Bryant
Procise
Folston
Bars
Ishaq
J. Jones
J. Smith
Crawford
Russell
Butler
Coney
Redfield
Avery
Tranquil
Tillery

 

[LongTimeSooner]

there should not be a single informed poster contending this issue. The data is overwhelming.

Rudy Ruettiger is crying somewhere.

No one is arguing against the necessity of good athletes. But recruiting stars are fantasy numbers, and the difference between three star 'benchhogs' and five star 'first-rounders' is often subjective.

OU's last two Heisman trophy winners were 3 star athletes out of highschool.

 

[stu4don]

Agree about Alabama. Best recruiter, best coach. Saban and Urban have proven they are the best and look out for Harbaugh. But what about Georgia -- they always seem to be in the top ten and they NEVER get it done.

By the way, Clemson had a damn good year, I did a ND/Clemson comparison for the past five recruiting class (rivals):

ND CLEMSON
2011 10 8
2012 20 14
2013 3 14
2014 10 13
2015 11 4

Avg, 10.8 10.6

And Clemson was an off-sides kick away from winning it all! I'm not saying we don't need top ten years, I'm saying it is harder for us, obviously, and well, we have to keep trying.... We are never going to get Alabama numbers, so what do we give up? What can we do guys?!

 

[bizzybecknd]

How about Clemson? They played in the game last night. They've had consistent coaching for more than half a decade now... But more importantly, they've become great recruiters and bring plenty of talent in each year.

You watched the Clemson/ND game.. Was it a question of recruiting/horses/athletes that resulted in the 22-24 loss? That's what you're suggesting and I disagree. Recruiting rankings from 2011-2015:

2015: Clemson (4) ND (11)
2014: Clemson (12) ND (11)
2013:Clemson (14) ND (3)
2012:Clemson (14) ND (20)
2011: Clemson (8) ND (10)

Average Ranking Clemson (10.4) ND (11)

 

[perseverare]

Agree about Alabama. Best recruiter, best coach. Saban and Urban have proven they are the best and look out for Harbaugh. But what about Georgia -- they always seem to be in the top ten and they NEVER get it done.

By the way, Clemson had a damn good year, I did a ND/Clemson comparison for the past five recruiting class (rivals):

ND CLEMSON
2011 10 8
2012 20 14
2013 3 14
2014 10 13
2015 11 4

Avg, 10.8 10.6

And Clemson was an off-sides kick away from winning it all! I'm not saying we don't need top ten years, I'm saying it is harder for us, obviously, and well, we have to keep trying.... We are never going to get Alabama numbers, so what do we give up? What can we do guys?!

stu

factor in the defections on that 3rd ranked class; EV did not even defect, hecwas a no show.
And then there is the imbalance offense>defense.

at the start I said Clemson was a dark horse contender, but ND did not 'predict' to be a contender. ND was actually a contender until it faced the 'contenders'.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Here's the 'Contenders" average recruiting rankings over the last 5 years

OU - 13.8
Clemson - 10.4
MSU- 31.2


Again it's a chase of Bama and Oh St.. That simple fellas.

 

[Irishtennis]

Clemson was fortunate to hang with Bama last night. The difference between the two teams was that Bama's reserves did not seem to be a dropoff from the starters......Clemson's did !!!

 

[bizzybecknd]

R

Clemson was fortunate to hang with Bama last night. The difference between the two teams was that Bama's reserves did not seem to be a dropoff from the starters......Clemson's did !!!

We watched different games. I thought Clemson was the better team through 3 Q's and should have had a 10 pt lead, the onside kick with 10 min left in the 4th was the difference. How many stars did that kicker have?

 

[perseverare]

^ did you erroneously omit the class ranking stats for Bama? your focused on the data needed to ignore the reality
1,1,5,1,1, 1, 1,1

 

[bizzybecknd]

I've already stated my belief on why Bama is a great- see above.

 

[bizzybecknd]

How in the hell did MSU beat Oh St Pers?

 

[perseverare]

oh, why Bama is great is a different topic: better benefits and 'nutrimedics'

 

[bizzybecknd]

How in the hell did MSU beat Oh St Pers?

Not to mention where Bama stands in recruiting is a given.

 

[bizzybecknd]

oh, why Bama is great is a different topic: better benefits and 'nutrimedics'

Not a different topic, I addressed it. I believe it has more to do with the legend Saban. It's a beautiful storm of one of the greatest coaches ever and the guys he recruits, no doubt. But the comparison to one of the greatest dynasty's in college football history needs to stop. My whole argument from the beginning has been the belief that ND has the horses/talent to compete for championships.. as proved by recruiting rankings - if OU, MSU, Clemson are there so is ND and they have proven it. What did Urban's classes look like at Utah when he was winning BCS games and putting guys in the NFL every year? Again, giving more credit to the two mount rushmore coaches than simply saying ND has a talent gap between the contenders. There is not a talent gap between 2-12. Do you think lack of talent was evident in games the last 3 years against LSU, FSU, Clemson, Stanford, OU, MSU?

 

[bizzybecknd]

The rest of the field of contenders are truly pretenders with Saban and Meyer on the prowl and ND falls into that category along with the LSU, OU, Oregon, Baylor, TCU, Clemson, MSU, A&M, Ole Miss teams of the world. The coaching gap with those two is a bigger factor than this recruiting/talent gap in my opinion.

 

[perseverare]

^ well it is that notion that brings those 2 coaches the elite of the elite. It is the chicken or the egg thing.

 

[Java65]

IMO, it's a combination of a few things;

1-Recruiting. Simply put you need good athletes to compete.
2-Player development. These kids need to be coached. Strength, technique, football-IQ. Great athletes without proper training are just great athletes and not great football players.
3- Scheme. Having a scheme / plan on both sides of the ball and getting the athletes that fit that plan and training them in executing it.

Why are Meyer and Saban successful, because they do all 3 at an elite level. Teams like FSU, Clemson, Georgia, USC recruit exceptionally well but don't do the other 2 at the level that Bama and OSU do. Teams like MSU and Stanford don't recruit as well but they do the last 2 extremely well.

 

[tkirish]

Offensively I think ND has as much talent to compete with anyone. Defenisively is another story. That is part but not all of the problem regarding ND. Going back to my earlier point. If you do not have a great defense it is hard to win big games. That is why playing run first, pass second style is more beneficial for Notre Dame because they do not at the moment have a shut down defense. Whether or not their defense becomes an elite unit is up for debate. But for now if you can control the ball and make the most of scoring opportunities then your suspect defense won't be on the field as much. Had ND ran the clock down to under 20 seconds in the Stanford game, they would have won. Getting back to the main topic. If you string together many top 5 classes your chances of being an eltite team go up dramatically. Elite defensive talent is what us needed if ND wants compete for a national championship.

 

[michigaNDer#1]

Offensively I think ND has as much talent to compete with anyone. Defenisively is another story. That is part but not all of the problem regarding ND. Going back to my earlier point. If you do not have a great defense it is hard to win big games. That is why playing run first, pass second style is more beneficial for Notre Dame because they do not at the moment have a shut down defense. Whether or not their defense becomes an elite unit is up for debate. But for now if you can control the ball and make the most of scoring opportunities then your suspect defense won't be on the field as much. Had ND ran the clock down to under 20 seconds in the Stanford game, they would have won. Getting back to the main topic. If you string together many top 5 classes your chances of being an eltite team go up dramatically. Elite defensive talent is what us needed if ND wants compete for a national championship.

Totally disagree with the "run first', "power running game", etc. Please tell me what beats Alabama's defense and what Urban Meyer said Clemson needed to beat Bama prior to the game.

ND's problem is not their offense.

Defense.