Elston, Cooks, Alford, & Sanford in current Top 15 "Recruiter" Rankings

[chaseball]

Basically this list at 247 rates/ranks coaches by 'recruiting success' in the 2017 class. It's a dynamic list that will change as more recruits give their LOI. Interesting 2 former Notre Dame coaches and 2 present Notre Dame coaches are in the top 15.

Cooks #5 (OU)
Alford #6 (OSU)
Sanford #7(ND)
Elston #12 (ND)

Rest of list: http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/CompositeCoachRankings

Obviously there's still a long way to go -- and this list will likely look very different the closer we get to national signing day (much of the top 100 consensus players dont sign their LOIs until then), but it's encouraging none-the-less to see that BK has an eye for coaches who know how to recruit.

 

[pikehead]

Basically this list at 247 rates/ranks coaches have the most recruiting success in the 2017 class. Interesting 2 former Notre Dame coaches and 2 present Notre Dame coaches are in the top 15.

Cooks #5 (OU)
Alford #6 (OSU)
Sanford #7(ND)
Elston #12 (ND)

Rest of list: http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/CompositeCoachRankings

Obviously there's still a long way to go -- and this list will likely look very different the closer we get to national signing day (much of the top 100 consensus players dont sign their LOIs until then), BUT it's encouraging to see that BK has an eye for coaches who know how to recruit.

Nothing to do with Notre Dame football it is a Admissions Problem. Most people know that,,

 

[chaseball]

I edited the post for clarity (seemed like i was conflating two different points into one point) but wanted to bring it up in the discussion in the rest of the thread.

ND has the resources/brand exposure/etc. to compete with anybody and obviously have hired coaches who are successful at recruiting. I just wish we had a tenacious university president who was willing to do what it takes to compete with the elite in modern college football.

Lowering admissions standards for the football program (or at least taking more chances on borderline cases) less demanding curriculum for athletes on the team, allocating more of the revenue generated by the football program back into the football program (e.g. blank checks to the top head coach and his assistants in the country, more clubhouse perks/facilities upgrades/technology to attract athletes, etc.)

I want to see way more ND logos in those top 100 ranking lists on 247/espn/rivals etc. Competing here is just as important as competing on Saturdays and we are losing in both. And the old way of doing things isn't working in the modern landscape of college football.

 

[Granite45]

Lowering admissions standards for the football program (or at least taking more chances on borderline cases) less demanding curriculum for athletes on the team, allocating more of the revenue generated by the football program back into the football program (e.g. blank checks to the top head coach and his assistants in the country, more clubhouse perks/facilities upgrades/technology to attract athletes, etc.)

I completely disagree with lowering admissions standards. A non-starter in fact.

Do you also advocate hiring fewer faculty so more money can go into football?

 

[chaseball]

I completely disagree with lowering admissions standards. A non-starter in fact.

Do you also advocate hiring fewer faculty so more money can go into football?

So you would prioritize the academic reputation of the football program over FBS national championships then? I'm asking this question because it seems like this is a sentiment among fans of the team. If we've learned anything over the last 25+ years, it's that we can't have both.

Also, NDs football program generates more revenue than 99% of the programs in the country in a multi billion dollar industry. Investing more of the money the football program generates back into the football program would not cost any faculty members their jobs.

 

[twalsh]

So you would prioritize the academic reputation of the football program over FBS national championships then?

Also, NDs football program generates more revenue than 99% of the programs in the country in a multi billion dollar industry. Investing more of the money the football program generates back into the football program would not cost any faculty members their jobs.

Rhetorical question?

And what exactly does the football program want ND want for? What would you add to the current budget?

 

[NDSMC78]

Lowering admissions standards for the football program (or at least taking more chances on borderline cases) less demanding curriculum for athletes on the team, allocating more of the revenue generated by the football program back into the football program (e.g. blank checks to the top head coach and his assistants in the country, more clubhouse perks/facilities upgrades/technology to attract athletes, etc.)

No. No. A thousand times--no.

 

[NDSMC78]

If we've learned anything over the last 25+ years, it's that we can't have both.

Not true. If we have learned anything over the past 25 years, it's that mediocre coaches end having mediocre teams.

 

[perseverare]

do you really need faculty? Don't young people already know everything there is to know?

 

[chaseball]

National Championships in the BCS era to present (i'd call this the modern era of college football):

2015 Alabama CFP
2014 Ohio State CFP
2013 Florida State BCS
2012 Alabama BCS
2011 Alabama BCS
2010 Auburn BCS
2009 Alabama BCS
2008 Florida BCS
2007 Louisiana State BCS
2006 Florida BCS
2005 Texas BCS
2004 Southern California BCS
2003 Louisiana State, Southern California BCS, AP, FWAA
2002 Ohio State BCS
2001 Miami (Fla.) BCS
2000 Oklahoma BCS
1999 Florida State BCS
1998 Tennessee BCS

None of these programs have any admissions requirements above NCAA standard requirements. Another thing these programs have in common, the last ~10 or so national champions (about as far as the Rivals database goes back), outside of Auburn, every single one of those programs monopolized the Rivals100 leading up to their national championships. If we had reliable recruiting rankings dating back to 1999, I'm positive we would see the same trend.

 

[NDSMC78]

National Championships in the BCS era to present (i'd call this the modern era of college football):

2015 Alabama CFP
2014 Ohio State CFP
2013 Florida State BCS
2012 Alabama BCS
2011 Alabama BCS
2010 Auburn BCS
2009 Alabama BCS
2008 Florida BCS
2007 Louisiana State BCS
2006 Florida BCS
2005 Texas BCS
2004 Southern California BCS
2003 Louisiana State, Southern California BCS, AP, FWAA
2002 Ohio State BCS
2001 Miami (Fla.) BCS
2000 Oklahoma BCS
1999 Florida State BCS
1998 Tennessee BCS

None of these programs have any admissions requirements above NCAA standard requirements. Another thing these programs have in common, the last ~10 or so national champions, outside of Auburn, every single one of those programs monopolized the Rivals100 leading up to their national championship.

I really don't care about what other schools do. I care what Notre Dame does. Notre Dame is, first and foremost, an educational institution. That fact that you seem to resent that tells me that you should find another team to follow. It should mean something to have an ND degree. I hope we never see the day where ND has no "admissions requirements above NCAA standard requirements." That will be a sad day indeed.

 

[Granite45]

So you would prioritize the academic reputation of the football program over FBS national championships then?

It is the academic reputation of the institution that is the issue, not the academic reputation of only the football team. And yes, the academic reputation should not be damaged by lowering admissions standards too far. Of course, I have not concrete knowledge how much leeway an athlete, or specific football player is currently given.

 

[chaseball]

Granite, there are currently 12,000 students enrolled at ND. The money, exposure, respect, etc. that ND would earn from national championships would be insurmountably greater than the impact the ~85 or so scholarship athletes would have on the institutions academic reputation as a whole.

Look, I love ND for many reasons. One of those reasons is the very thing I'm arguing against. I respect that ND does things differently -- but man i am so tired of seeing ND getting run off the field by the types of programs I listed in that post above. And I'm sick and tired of NDs football program being one of those programs on the outside looking in.

 

[NDSMC78]

Granite, there are currently 12,000 students enrolled at ND. The money, exposure, respect, etc. that ND would earn from national championships would be insurmountably greater than the impact the ~85 or so scholarship athletes would have on the institutions academic reputation as a whole.

Look, I love ND for many reasons. One of those reasons is the very thing I'm arguing against. I respect that ND does things differently -- but man i am so tired of seeing ND getting run off the field by the types of programs I listed in that post above. And I'm sick and tired of NDs football program being one of those programs on the outside looking in.

Notre Dame already has money, exposure and respect---in spades. And, in fact, if ND were to lower its admissions standards, as you have suggested she should, the respect others have for ND would almost certainly be diminished.
If you don't think ND's football program measures up to your standards, please find another school to pull for.

 

[echowaker]

Granite, there are currently 12,000 students enrolled at ND. The money, exposure, respect, etc. that ND would earn from national championships would be insurmountably greater than the impact the ~85 or so scholarship athletes would have on the institutions academic reputation as a whole.

Look, I love ND for many reasons. One of those reasons is the very thing I'm arguing against. I respect that ND does things differently -- but man i am so tired of seeing ND getting run off the field by the types of programs I listed in that post above. And I'm sick and tired of NDs football program being one of those programs on the outside looking in.

lowering the bar is basically a sell out to what notre dame is. you can get it done the way notre dame does it just not nearly as often as many here would like. i prefer the status quo.

 

[Kelso86]

I edited the post for clarity (seemed like i was conflating two different points into one point) but wanted to bring it up in the discussion in the rest of the thread.

ND has the resources/brand exposure/etc. to compete with anybody and obviously have hired coaches who are successful at recruiting. I just wish we had a tenacious university president who was willing to do what it takes to compete with the elite in modern college football.

Lowering admissions standards for the football program (or at least taking more chances on borderline cases) less demanding curriculum for athletes on the team, allocating more of the revenue generated by the football program back into the football program (e.g. blank checks to the top head coach and his assistants in the country, more clubhouse perks/facilities upgrades/technology to attract athletes, etc.)

I want to see way more ND logos in those top 100 ranking lists on 247/espn/rivals etc. Competing here is just as important as competing on Saturdays and we are losing in both. And the old way of doing things isn't working in the modern landscape of college football.

"Lowering admissions standards for the football program (or at least taking more chances on borderline cases) less demanding curriculum for athletes on the team, allocating more of the revenue generated by the football program back into the football program"

Look at North Carolina! Do you want that? These kids need to be prepared for life AFTER football. How many of these kids do you think will play professionally? I can see taking a chance, but the kid also needs to have a chance. How many Rice's and Zorich's are out there that can cut it at ND?

 

[echowaker]

"Lowering admissions standards for the football program (or at least taking more chances on borderline cases) less demanding curriculum for athletes on the team, allocating more of the revenue generated by the football program back into the football program"

Look at North Carolina! Do you want that? These kids need to be prepared for life AFTER football. How many of these kids do you think will play professionally? I can see taking a chance, but the kid also needs to have a chance. How many Rice's and Zorich's are out there that can cut it at ND?

well said.

 

[chaseball]

"Lowering admissions standards for the football program (or at least taking more chances on borderline cases) less demanding curriculum for athletes on the team, allocating more of the revenue generated by the football program back into the football program"

Look at North Carolina! Do you want that? These kids need to be prepared for life AFTER football. How many of these kids do you think will play professionally? I can see taking a chance, but the kid also needs to have a chance. How many Rice's and Zorich's are out there that can cut it at ND?

I would argue that ND could better prepare them for life by giving them a fat signing bonus out of High School to adequately compensate them for their contributions to a multi billion industry.

Also, I don't make a conscious choice to root for Notre Dame - so choosing another program would be the equivalent of choosing who my brother is. I simply want Notre Dame to succeed on the football field like the days of yore. Like current Alabama, or USC before them. Like their 88-93 run.

Seems like the consensus in this thread is that 3-5 loss seasons, being a 2nd tier football program, and going through 27+ year droughts with no prominent bowl victories is acceptable to you all. Which is ironic given the general 'tone' of the posters whenever ND loses on Saturdays. (Fans are irate calling for everyone's head who is associated with the football team).

 

[Pennick4]

I would argue that ND could better prepare them for life by giving them a fat signing bonus out of High School to adequately compensate them for their contributions to a multi billion industry.

Also, I don't make a conscious choice to root for Notre Dame - so choosing another program would be the equivalent of choosing who my brother is. I simply want Notre Dame to succeed on the football field like the days of yore. Like current Alabama, or USC before them. Like their 88-93 run.

Seems like the consensus in this thread is that 3-5 loss seasons, being a 2nd tier football program, and going through 27+ year droughts with no prominent bowl victories is acceptable to you all. Which is ironic given the general 'tone' of the posters whenever ND loses on Saturdays. (Fans are irate calling for everyone's head who is associated with the football team).

Your ideals are more aligned with SEC football.

 

[cgvr]

I edited the post for clarity (seemed like i was conflating two different points into one point) but wanted to bring it up in the discussion in the rest of the thread.

ND has the resources/brand exposure/etc. to compete with anybody and obviously have hired coaches who are successful at recruiting. I just wish we had a tenacious university president who was willing to do what it takes to compete with the elite in modern college football.

Lowering admissions standards for the football program (or at least taking more chances on borderline cases) less demanding curriculum for athletes on the team, allocating more of the revenue generated by the football program back into the football program (e.g. blank checks to the top head coach and his assistants in the country, more clubhouse perks/facilities upgrades/technology to attract athletes, etc.)

I want to see way more ND logos in those top 100 ranking lists on 247/espn/rivals etc. Competing here is just as important as competing on Saturdays and we are losing in both. And the old way of doing things isn't working in the modern landscape of college football.

How much lower do you want to go?
kelly:
“I think we recognized that all of my football players are at-risk -- all of them -- really. Honestly, I don’t know that any of our players would get into the school by themselves right now with the academic standards the way they are. Maybe one or two of our players that are on scholarship."

 

[NDSMC78]

I would argue that ND could better prepare them for life by giving them a fat signing bonus out of High School to adequately compensate them for their contributions to a multi billion industry.

Also, I don't make a conscious choice to root for Notre Dame - so choosing another program would be the equivalent of choosing who my brother is. I simply want Notre Dame to succeed on the football field like the days of yore. Like current Alabama, or USC before them. Like their 88-93 run.

Seems like the consensus in this thread is that 3-5 loss seasons, being a 2nd tier football program, and going through 27+ year droughts with no prominent bowl victories is acceptable to you all. Which is ironic given the general 'tone' of the posters whenever ND loses on Saturdays. (Fans are irate calling for everyone's head who is associated with the football team).

What a bunch of crap. Notre Dame is not a second tier program. Stop with the hyperbole. Stop with the hair pulling.

 

[Granite45]

Granite, there are currently 12,000 students enrolled at ND. The money, exposure, respect, etc. that ND would earn from national championships would be insurmountably greater than the impact the ~85 or so scholarship athletes would have on the institutions academic reputation as a whole.

Look, I love ND for many reasons. One of those reasons is the very thing I'm arguing against. I respect that ND does things differently -- but man i am so tired of seeing ND getting run off the field by the types of programs I listed in that post above. And I'm sick and tired of NDs football program being one of those programs on the outside looking in.

Maybe you should consider de-emphasizing football in your life; possibly it has become more important to you than it should. I love seeing Notre Dame teams do well, but the concerns of my kids and other family members trumps any negative feelings I may have about a simple loss in a game. The results of any games have no real impact on the happenings in my life, and certainly my sense of self is never impacted by the results of of the actions of college students.

 

[chaseball]

Notre Dame is outside of the top 25 in terms of wins/winning percentage since the turn of the century. They haven't won a prominent bowl game since their back to back cotton bowl victories in '92 & '93. As far as it relates to success on the football field, modern ND is undoubtedly a 2nd tier football program.

And Granite, your argument seems to suggest that wanting ND to win national championships, and be an elite football program again makes me an obsessed fan whose priorities in life are all out of wack. Isn't winning championships (in this case national championships) the shared desire among all fans of every team in every sport?

 

[NDSMC78]

Notre Dame is outside of the top 25 in terms of wins/winning percentage since the turn of the century. They haven't won a prominent bowl game since their back to back cotton bowl victories in '92 & '93. As far as it relates to success on the football field, modern ND is undoubtedly a 2nd tier football program.

And Granite, your argument seems to suggest that wanting ND to win national championships, and be an elite football program again makes me an obsessed fan whose priorities in life are all out of wack. Isn't winning championships (in this case national championships) the mutual desire among all fans of every team in every sport?

Pure and unadulterated nonsense.

 

[shabak]

I completely disagree with lowering admissions standards. A non-starter in fact.

Do you also advocate hiring fewer faculty so more money can go into football?

How about having statistics as an upper level course to start and not freshman year

 

[Pennick4]

How about having statistics as an upper level course to start and not freshman year

How is that going to improve the football team?

 

[chaseball]

How about having statistics as an upper level course to start and not freshman year

Another one that gets thrown around the rumor mill as it relates to restrictive admissions is the foreign language requirement. If adjusting that requirement opens the door for possibly more of the countries elite prep stars out of HS, then why the hell not?

 

[Pennick4]

Another one that gets thrown around the rumor mill as it relates to restrictive admissions is the foreign language requirement. If adjusting that requirement opens the door for possibly more of the countries elite prep stars out of HS, then why the hell not?

Do you realize that Notre Dame is an academic institution with a football team and not the other way around? I am going to go out on a limb and assume that you or nobody in your family has a ND degree.

 

[twalsh]

Another one that gets thrown around the rumor mill as it relates to restrictive admissions is the foreign language requirement. If adjusting that requirement opens the door for possibly more of the countries elite prep stars out of HS, then why the hell not?

Because we don't change the curriculum requirements for athletes. That's why the hell not.

 

[perseverare]

people still go to Vandy football games, they go to NW games, Duke, Harvard, Yale Princeton....
None of those teams will be winning NC's in the near future.
Football fans want football.

 

[twalsh]

Seems like the consensus in this thread is that 3-5 loss seasons, being a 2nd tier football program, and going through 27+ year droughts with no prominent bowl victories is acceptable to you all. Which is ironic given the general 'tone' of the posters whenever ND loses on Saturdays. (Fans are irate calling for everyone's head who is associated with the football team).

This is the perfect example of how you simply don't get it.

 

[chaseball]

people still go to Vandy football games, they go to NW games, Duke, Harvard, Yale Princeton....
None of those teams will be winning NC's in the near future.
Football fans want football.

The reason NDs football program is as prominent as it is today is because of its long and rich tradition of being dominant/winning a ton of football games that matter (national championships, heisman trophy winners, rosters full of heroic athletes, top recruiting classes, long stretches of dominance in the mid 20th century ala currrent Alabama) -- mind you none of these things are happening anymore/today.

As fans, do we really want to settle for/watch ND erode into an Ivy League/2nd division team or some garden variety cupcake bottom feeding in a crap conference?

 

[Granite45]

Granite, there are currently 12,000 students enrolled at ND. The money, exposure, respect, etc. that ND would earn from national championships would be insurmountably greater than the impact the ~85 or so scholarship athletes would have on the institutions academic reputation as a whole.

The admission rate is quite stringent as it stands; more applications will not give a bump to Notre Dame.

75% of the 12,000 receive financial aid so 25% do not = 3,000 students @$64,000 fees year = $192,000, 000 per year from just these 25% of non-football students. This is about 2-3 X the revenue of the football team. The other 75% do not all get a free ride so their revenue from this students as well.

So for now, the money issue is also not relevant, hence Father Jenkins' willingness to oppose paying football players. Remember most football programs lose money each year so it is not the panacea that supporters of paying players make it out to be.

 

[perseverare]

ND has enjoyed the national following (subway alums) for a few generations. Those generations are either long in the tooth or watching the all-time team play. ND will have a following more centered around the university itself and it's alums. Times change. And then again they may change again.


BTW

ND got an early 2018 commit from a 5* QB

 

[twalsh]

As fans, do we really want to settle for/watch ND erode into an Ivy League/2nd division team or some garden variety cupcake bottom feeding in a crap conference?

Nobody wants that to happen. But we are not going to abandon our standards to assure that it doesn't.

 

[shabak]

How is that going to improve the football team?

Did you ever take statistics? It is One of the hardest courses you'll ever take in college. So if a freshman athlete did not have to take statistics his freshman year especially if you're on the academic borderline so to speak you may have a greater chance of getting through your first year. In one of the episodes about Notre Dame that they showed on Showtime, Jerry Tillery was complaining about how hard statistics was. Not that you shouldn't take it or should not be in the curriculum however you want to face in some students so they get used to the classroom in the rigors of academics at Notre Dame. If There's a typos I apologize

 

[chaseball]

Nobody wants that to happen. But we are not going to abandon our standards to assure that it doesn't.

NDs football program is probably worth close to $1B alone (if it was a for sale commodity). In what stratosphere do you think any sane institution would let something like that slip away?

 

[shabak]

Another one that gets thrown around the rumor mill as it relates to restrictive admissions is the foreign language requirement. If adjusting that requirement opens the door for possibly more of the countries elite prep stars out of HS, then why the hell not?

I agree. I am not sure how a foreign language that you take in high school or for semester two in college makes you a better business person, doctor, lawyer etc. Sometimes you have to take junk courses to get into school especially graduate school such as medicine. I took two semesters of calculus, and two semesters of physics and never once used it as a physician. But they're actually elimination courses. The thinking is if you can do well in organic chemistry calculus and physics in college and you could do well in medical school. I have no clue if that's even correct. That was the thinking when I went

 

[scotchirishblood]

Because we don't change the curriculum requirements for athletes. That's why the hell not.

If I'm not mistaken ND did lower the standards for athletes when they hired Coach Kelly.

 

[Pennick4]

Did you ever take statistics? It is One of the hardest courses you'll ever take in college. So if a freshman athlete did not have to take statistics his freshman year especially if you're on the academic borderline so to speak you may have a greater chance of getting through your first year. In one of the episodes about Notre Dame that they showed on Showtime, Jerry Tillery was complaining about how hard statistics was. Not that you shouldn't take it or should not be in the curriculum however you want to face in some students so they get used to the classroom in the rigors of academics at Notre Dame. If There's a typos I apologize

If a kid can't get through statistics in year 1 with all the aid that scholarship athletes get , then they probably aren't cut out for ND to begin with.