Dumb shit schools- most of them

[Patrirish]

It will be interesting when that football money starts drying up.

That’s a positive thought but my concern is that it will only get worse

 

[adrian1477]

That’s a positive thought but my concern is that it will only get worse

It’s a positive for ND to lose millions because they can no longer compete in CFB???

 

[tbonesays]

Transform overnight due to the portal. . Look at SC. If you can spell your name you can transfer there. Let’s face it ND closed the gap but never all the way and now pretty much will never do it. The run from 2017-2021 will be the standard from here on out.

Did these schools make the SAT/ACT optional?

 

[tbonesays]

Yes, I graduated from ND.

Is Notre Dame’s priority to provide a higher education for all of it’s students or to lower it’s academic standards and essentially admit academically unqualified athletes in an attempt to win a National championship ?

How low do you want to lower the bar ?

Should ND admit athletes who don’t attend class ?
Or athletes who can’t keep up ?

To what degree should ND prostitute itself in an attempt to win a National Championship ?

How about making the SAT optional?

 

[NDblitz]

These kids transferred in this year?

Wow! You’re either trying to be smug and failing or a dumbshit too. I’m citing factual evidence as to the ease with which SC can get transfers or anybody really to play there. Go ****ing back to your SC board your presence here bothers me. As it has since forever. You’re a passive aggressive patronizing fool.

 

[ivan brunetti]

USC Football, if you can play well, accepts anyone with a pulse.

So, guys like Tony Rice.

ND's next recruiting class is ranked 4th. Ahead of such teams as Ohio State, Clemson, LSU, OU, Miami and USC. That kind of talent seems good enough to win every game.

 

[NDblitz]

So, guys like Tony Rice.

ND's next recruiting class is ranked 4th. Ahead of such teams as Ohio State, Clemson, LSU, OU, Miami and USC. That kind of talent seems good enough to win every game.

Really? Tony Rice? 1985?

 

[beachcardinal]

Wow! You’re either trying to be smug and failing or a dumbshit too. I’m citing factual evidence as to the ease with which SC can get transfers or anybody really to play there. Go ****ing back to your SC board your presence here bothers me. As it has since forever. You’re a passive aggressive patronizing fool.

The original post was discussing this year, “ the ability to transform overnight”. You mentioned kids from decades ago. So again who that transferred in under Riley is a poor student. Also what school did Ellis transfer to USC from?



Sorry you feel that way about me. Did you know you can place me on ignore?

 

[ivan brunetti]

Really? Tony Rice? 1985?

I mentioned him because ND fans seem particularly proud of Mr. Rice.

And as I pointed out, ND has no problem getting top kids to commit. ND takes all kinds of grad transfers.

 

[NDinNJ]

When you lower your academic standards and take in “student-athletes” incapable of meeting the academic rigors, they’re not going to graduate, they’re not going to become gainfully employed, they’re not going to live a rewarding life after college football.

Notre Dame‘s primary mission is to educate and prepare their students for life after college.

Using academically inferior students to win football games and then setting them adrift without a degree, without a higher education, is reckless and irresponsible and contrary to ND’s mission and ND’s responsibility to those students

I agree, add in the fact that only a small percentage of college athletes actually make it to the NFL, and the average career in the NFL is a little over 3 years, a solid education is important to fall back on.

 

[ivan brunetti]

I agree, add in the fact that only a small percentage of college athletes actually make it to the NFL, and the average career in the NFL is a little over 3 years, a solid education is important to fall back on.

I would say the connections you make as a player are at least as valuable as they will always keep you employed. A football player who graduates is not going to be offered the same jobs as a regular student who graduates.

 

[banmate6]

I would say the connections you make as a player are at least as valuable as they will always keep you employed. A football player who graduates is not going to be offered the same jobs as a regular student who graduates.

Yet they will graduate and have better opportunities than those who didn't graduate with a degree and didn't make the pros. I've come across quite a few ex-athletes who graduated from all kinds of schools. Some did well academically...clearly some didn't, but still got jobs in operations, sales, marketing, administration, even leadership.

Similarly, some HS graduates don't go to college. But there are plenty of well paying dirty and even hi-tech jobs for them. ND is well capable of providing a remedial, progressive degree program that is easy enough to pass while allowing an athlete to be fully competitive in football.

I'll say it again and again: this sure seems in line with any Catholic social mission.

 

[adrian1477]

I mentioned him because ND fans seem particularly proud of Mr. Rice.

And as I pointed out, ND has no problem getting top kids to commit. ND takes all kinds of grad transfers.

FYI... ND ranks at the bottom of the transfer portal. As far as top kids, we get our share but nothing compared to the elite, especially the top-100 athletes. It's not even close.

 

[d1042]

Money changes everything.

 

[ivan brunetti]

Yet they will graduate and have better opportunities than those who didn't graduate with a degree and didn't make the pros. I've come across quite a few ex-athletes who graduated from all kinds of schools. Some did well academically...clearly some didn't, but still got jobs in operations, sales, marketing, administration, even leadership.

Similarly, some HS graduates don't go to college. But there are plenty of well paying dirty and even hi-tech jobs for them. ND is well capable of providing a remedial, progressive degree program that is easy enough to pass while allowing an athlete to be fully competitive in football.

I'll say it again and again: this sure seems in line with any Catholic social mission.

Yes, I agree: ND is well capable of providing a degree that is easy enough to pass while allowing an athlete to be fully competitive. And that degree is called Marketing.

 

[banmate6]

Yes, I agree: ND is well capable of providing a degree that is easy enough to pass while allowing an athlete to be fully competitive. And that degree is called Marketing.

That is a good idea.

A number of sports oriented programs can be applied in communications, sports science and training, physical education, marketing, and general business. Including core remedial reading, writing, tech, and math.

I was an assistant to a professor in college teaching basic tech as a core curriculum. Everybody knew they would pass, this in a strong school.

I have to admit: the easing of pressure made everybody actually learn. Even top students didn’t necessarily want to nor had exposure to tech in the 80s.

There is a place for this kind of program. I’ll keep emphasizing the Catholic charity and social mission here. Catholic universities charge huge $$$. This actually would be a huge charity…as the ND football brand is a Catholic icon in so many ways.

To the holier than thou here: pardon my heather sacrilege.

😛

 

[4-4-3]

Fair enough. I know a few ND gradates. Most agree ND could do what I described without compromising the academic brand and, most importantly, achieve a social mission.

Nobody suggesting skipping classes, cheating, or empty degrees. I choose my words carefully: a remedial but progressive degree. Yes, it's tailored to the athlete who couldn't keep up in a regular degree.

I wrote on another thread how my Catholic all boy HS had tier 1, 2, and 3 (honors) classes to accommodate a range of abilities. It worked out very well, with most being accepted to college. This could be adopted so ND gets the best athletic talent...as do OSU, AL, and GA, where I think most graduate now.

Mind you, I'm fine with ND staying the way it is. I'm a Catholic subway fan with memories of the 70s and 80s. But younger fans might not stay so loyal, as winning matters. Always has. Always will.

Football helped make ND. Why not keep up such a tradition and brand? Again, I don't see any compromise chasing this as I described.

BTW: I work in hi-tech in Silicon Valley. With talented STEM folks from all kinds of universities. Including ND, the Ivies, SEC schools, community and state schools.

Do you think top software engineers from USC, AL, Wisconsin, or OR came from prostituted schools? Because of what they do in their sports programs? Really?

I hope you see my point.

Extremely well argued. And RESPECTFULLY. Which matters. Because this is SENSITIVE TERRITORY.

This idea that ND football can somehow still PREVAIL without bringing in what I call FOOTBALL MERCENARIES is held by many AS AN ARTICLE OF FAITH. And as I've repeatedly learned, THERE'S NO ARGUING WITH FAITH.

When confronted by ND's actual 35-year INABILITY to prevail, the BELIEVER'S argument proceeds down one or both of two tracks: 1) We go after the WRONG COACHES and/or 2) The coach is a LAZY RECRUITER.

Fact is, the RIGHT COACH seldom wishes to come to ND anymore nor ENOUGH PREMIER RECRUITS.

PERIOD.

And THAT'S SQUARELY THE RESULT OF ND'S ACADEMIC MISSION which insists that the perfect SCHOLAR-ATHLETE is still a VIABLE PARADIGM and that enough of them actually exist to FILL AN NC ROSTER..

IF ONLY THE RIGHT COACH WOULD GET UP OFF HIS BUTT AND FIND THEM.

IT'S A MYTH.

But to TRUE BELIEVERS, THAT'S NOT A PROBLEM. And in some cases, the frustration involved actually STRENGHTENS THEIR FAITH.

My suggestion for ND. Create a COLLEGE OF SPORTS PROFESSIONS that would include training for everything from ESPN commentator to assistant freshman high school football coach. There are hundreds of jobs associated with sports which former college athletes can aspire to.

BECOME THE LEADER IN THAT FIELD. And start attracting the kinds of players in SUFFICIENT NUMBERS that an NC contender REQUIRES.

As one poster's research revealed, 14 out of the top 100 players are going to Alabama while only 3 or 4 to ND. Visualize that in terms of a baseball lineup.

It's QUITE A GAP.

 

[4-4-3]

Lots of good posts here and interesting perspectives. Yes, college football has changed. Back in the day, everybody prostituted themselves, even ND allowed players to pass who clearly weren't. The big turn around came at the end of the Holtz era, when ND genuinely applied the standards.

As we're discussing, I get this. But other colleges also cleaned up in their own way. Nobody at OSU, AL, and GA are graduating illiterate or even cheating. Again, they go through tailored degrees where it takes minimal time, but still teaches and improves them.

This is no different from soccer players are developed in Europe. Even in HS they get a lighter program and simply don't go to college. That won't fly here, so colleges make accommodation, achieving effectively the same thing.

I'm from Croatia. Soccer players that don't make it have received some job training along the way and are guaranteed jobs. Mitigating risk for the player and his family. If you don't do this you simply cannot compete...and helps explain why Croatia with 4M people can get to a World Cup final in 2018 and have some of the best soccer players in the world.

Guys, it's no different in college football. If ND wants the best players, it must find a way to match those of AL, GA, and OSU. Otherwise ND cannot compete at the elite level in the big moments...and clearly is challenged to even be top 15...with CBK being an outlier since Holtz here.

The most decisive indicator for me is if ND can get a top coach. I haven't seen one since Holtz. That says it all for me.

Urban Meyer dreamed of coaching at ND. He never did because he knows he won't do as well as his aspirations. Not 1 coach since Holtz has been of the Meyer caliber.

We talk a lot about data. The data speaks loudly here. ND has been left behind by an evolving college landscape. To come full circle, sure, it's commendable to stick to tradition and academic rigor...but so do the Ivies, Army, and Navy...commendable but they're not going to win titles.

Good post. You're talking GOOD SENSE here.

It's time to RIP OFF THE BANDAGE and start discussing this in a REALISTIC WAY.

And there are plenty here who agree with you.

This ND playing HARD TO GET act has gotten OLD.

 

[4-4-3]

I think ND already does this, at least to a degree.

I would agree -- TO A DEGREE.

Isn't enough, though, is it?

 

[4-4-3]

The point, more than anything, is that as long as we maintain the status quo with academic requirements, the game will pass us by. We either want to pump out men of high academic quality that are good at football or pump out men of high athletic quality that major in general studies. The teams winning NCs let anyone in with a pulse and now get them paid big to be there. Meanwhile, in South Bend, we’re still operating like college football is a game where you’re a student first. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that; however, it should lead us to adjust our expectations. Notre Dame will likely be destined to be more akin to Northwestern, Stanford, Vanderbilt, etc. than to be spoken of in the same conversation as Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Ohio State, etc.

Keep TELLING IT.

 

[4-4-3]

EVERYBODY GOT BEAT EXCEPT THE WINNER !

there’s an inherent conflict between academics and athletics and ND isn’t going to sell its soul in pursuit of a NC

The conflict qua dilemma there, of course, is that ND football fans don't wish to PAY THE PRICE for ND's academic PURITY.

And the argument that Ivy League-level excellence need NOT be sacrificed in pursuit of a football NC becomes less and less VIABLE with every new change in the CFB landscape.

I agree that ND will never SELL ITS SOUL academically to win an NC. Nor should it, if that's its main mission. But it might wish to consider a "SALE and LEASEBACK" as there are ways that don't involve complete ACADEMIC CAPITULATION as a means to greater competitiveness in football.

Sometimes, I think ND is too fixated on ACADEMIC PURITY tests rather than in finding a practical compromise solution to this issue. I think it should try HARDER. Footbal is a BIG EARNER, and it supports a lot of other sports as well.

There are definitely economic considerations in the mix here, too.

 

[NDblitz]

I do see your point.

But when it comes to football programs I believe that USC, Alabama and many other schools did prostitute themselves in pursuit of a NC and I don’t want ND to go down that road.

When I look at ND football, I see great success and great failures and what separates the two is just one factor, ………… the coaches !

Bringing in 29 guys in the portal is further proof of SC prostitution

 

[banmate6]

Bringing in 29 guys in the portal is further proof of SC prostitution

Yes, it’s a business. But let me be even more controversial. For all the iniquities the Catholic Church has suffered, this is where it takes a stand? Academic piety?

I’ve been immersed in Catholicism all my life. Am on the pastoral council in my parish. My child is in a top Catholic HS that has 100 scholarships for disadvantaged kids and remedial classes. About 1200 total students.

A HS can do it. Surely ND can.

 

[NDblitz]

Exactly. ND could not only use it to bring in certain athletes but could bring in good promising low socioeconomic kids who don't quite meet the "standards" to go to ND as a regular enrollee. We could call it 5 for 40. Instead of graduating in 4 years. You do it in 5. Maybe take 12 credit hours instead of 15. Make it a general studies curriculum. If you get a certain GPA you can transfer to another major. If not you end up with a Liberal Arts degree. Mandatory summer school and oh Gasp! maybe you have to take a couple remedial classes. I'm just spit-balling here.

 

[4-4-3]

Yes, it’s a business. But let me be even more controversial. For all the iniquities the Catholic Church has suffered, this is where it takes a stand? Academic piety?

I’ve been immersed in Catholicism all my life. Am on the pastoral council in my parish. My child is in a top Catholic HS that has 100 scholarships for disadvantaged kids and remedial classes. About 1200 total students.

A HS can do it. Surely ND can.

Good points.

I sometimes wonder if it isn't to a certain extent about THIS: ND STILL SEEKING APPROVAL FROM THE OLD WASP/IVY LEAGUE POWER STRUCTURE.

Now that ND's gained ACADEMIC "PARITY," it's something to be JEALOUSLY GUARDED. Plus, if it can still MIX IT UP ON THE FIELD with the BIG BOYS -- something the IVIES can NO LONGER DO -- then that actually puts ND in the CATBIRD SEAT.

Trouble is, CFB is now changing at a rate of speed that is itself constantly accelerating, rendering ND's efforts to DEFEAT GRAVITY ever more difficult. The idea that hiring Marcus Freeman -- A DEFENSIVE MOVE -- will somehow allow ND to bridge an INCREASINGLY WIDENING GAP is LUDICROUS.

ND must either BEND somewhere along the line OR BREAK.

 

[4-4-3]

Exactly. ND could not only use it to bring in certain athletes but could bring in good promising low socioeconomic kids who don't quite meet the "standards" to go to ND as a regular enrollee. We could call it 5 for 40. Instead of graduating in 4 years. You do it in 5. Maybe take 12 credit hours instead of 15. Make it a general studies curriculum. If you get a certain GPA you can transfer to another major. If not you end up with a Liberal Arts degree. Mandatory summer school and oh Gasp! maybe you have to take a couple remedial classes. I'm just spit-balling here.

Right, and if YOU'RE just spitballing, why CAN'T THEY?

They're the SUPPOSED BRAINIACS.

No, it's something else, I'm afraid. They like flying in ACADEMIC FIRST CLASS.

RANK is a hard thing to walk away from.

 

[HDK]

Exactly. ND could not only use it to bring in certain athletes but could bring in good promising low socioeconomic kids who don't quite meet the "standards" to go to ND as a regular enrollee. We could call it 5 for 40. Instead of graduating in 4 years. You do it in 5. Maybe take 12 credit hours instead of 15. Make it a general studies curriculum. If you get a certain GPA you can transfer to another major. If not you end up with a Liberal Arts degree. Mandatory summer school and oh Gasp! maybe you have to take a couple remedial classes. I'm just spit-balling here.

Just don't call it general studies because that sounds too much like General Program, which is the Great Books seminar major.

 

[beachcardinal]

Bringing in 29 guys in the portal is further proof of SC prostitution

Why do you believe that? Who were the poor students? They were all in good standing at their schools. How many can you take without become a prostitute? Certainly it would be more than ND took right? Are , Grupe, Smith, and Joseph prostitutes?

 

[NDblitz]

Why do you believe that? Who were the poor students? They were all in good standing at their schools. How many can you take without become a prostitute? Certainly it would be more than ND took right? Are , Grupe, Smith, and Joseph prostitutes?

AGAIN...why are you here? Second, getting a few guys to fill holes is one thing. Dumping your roster and "rebuilding" with 29 guys is selling out just for the sake of winning. AND it also shows the ease at which you can get into USC if you are a football player. As I have mentioned over and over. You asked me to put you on ignore earlier yet you keep responding to my posts more or less asking me not to ignore you.

 

[beachcardinal]

AGAIN...why are you here? Second, getting a few guys to fill holes is one thing. Dumping your roster and "rebuilding" with 29 guys is selling out just for the sake of winning. AND it also shows the ease at which you can get into USC if you are a football player. As I have mentioned over and over. You asked me to put you on ignore earlier yet you keep responding to my posts more or less asking me not to ignore you.

I am here because I enjoy it, as I have explained many times. I was born in Indiana. Have followed the team for decades and root for them every game but one.

I suggested you put me on ignore because you wanted me gone per your earlier post. Putting me on ignore is a way to make me gone, from your point of view. From my point of view I am happy to read you posts and respond to those which interest me.

Actually, you discussed the ease of transferring to SC and gave a couple of examples of over a decade ago which applied to players who didn't transfer. But after you latest post I understand you beliefs: allowing transfer of a few player to "fill holes" in order to win is valent. Allowing more than a few players to fill holes in order to win is prostitution.

Doesn't seem to make much sense, but now at least I know your beliefs.

 

[NDblitz]

I am here because I enjoy it, as I have explained many times. I was born in Indiana. Have followed the team for decades and root for them every game but one.

I suggested you put me on ignore because you wanted me gone per your earlier post. Putting me on ignore is a way to make me gone, from your point of view. From my point of view I am happy to read you posts and respond to those which interest me.

Actually, you discussed the ease of transferring to SC and gave a couple of examples of over a decade ago which applied to players who didn't transfer. But after you latest post I understand you beliefs: allowing transfer of a few player to "fill holes" in order to win is valent. Allowing more than a few players to fill holes in order to win is prostitution.

Doesn't seem to make much sense, but now at least I know your beliefs.

You're a moron. But I love watching you verbally dance in circles.

 

[beachcardinal]

You're a moron. But I love watching you verbally dance in circles.

Well see, you don't want me gone after all. That's great, and I am delighted with your change of views.

 

[Irishjohn68]

You're a moron. But I love watching you verbally dance in circles.

By your argument, why are you responding to a SC Conversation?

 

[NDblitz]

By your argument, why are you responding to a SC Conversation?

I’m sorry did I hurt your wife’s feelings?

 

[IrishHerb]

The days of any academic institution winning a national championship in CFB are long since past, and it's only gonna get worse. Sad to say, but I don't see ND ever winning a championship again. We just will never bend to the athletes needed to make that happen.

Hell, we're two games in and the season is already over. Join a damn conference, and give this generation of kids something to play for!!!

Join the Ivy League. We'd be champions every year.

Don't get me wrong. The Ivies have produced some NFL players ... Calvin Hill of the Cowboys, Gary Fencick of the Bears, just to name two.

 

[deadirishpoet]

The days of any academic institution winning a national championship in CFB are long since past, and it's only gonna get worse. Sad to say, but I don't see ND ever winning a championship again. We just will never bend to the athletes needed to make that happen.

Hell, we're two games in and the season is already over. Join a damn conference, and give this generation of kids something to play for!!!

I'm not sure I believe that.

Schools like that need to work with in their limitations.

Kelly got Notre Dame to the trophy games, but the system did protect the clock, or the defense.
A program such as Notre Dame needs to work within the perimeter of ball control/clock management
JMHO

 

[banmate6]

I'm not sure I believe that.

Schools like that need to work with in their limitations.

Kelly got Notre Dame to the trophy games, but the system did protect the clock, or the defense.
A program such as Notre Dame needs to work within the perimeter of ball control/clock management
JMHO

I know it is early in the season and Freeman could possibly turn this around. But it looks very possible that Freeman will perform in line with Davie, Willingham, Weis...and CBK tougher years, not the last 5 years.

Many posters have discussed this on a lot of threads...do you contest that ND or any academic school has a reasonable shot at a NC?

 

[deadirishpoet]

I know it is early in the season and Freeman could possibly turn this around. But it looks very possible that Freeman will perform in line with Davie, Willingham, Weis...and CBK tougher years, not the last 5 years.

Many posters have discussed this on a lot of threads...do you contest that ND or any academic school has a reasonable shot at a NC

Yes I believe schools of such caliber have a chance, but they must play within their limitation.
MF right now is not the anomaly at this point, but if he can learn to deal with, and build within the structure of players ND can get he most certainly can