Does anybody else get really exasperated with the fact that ND refuses to dance with the elite 4 & 5 star talent?

[chaseball]

YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE AS TO THE NIL ISSUE AND NOTRE DAME !

YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE AS TO HOW NOTRE DAME RUNS THEIR FOOTBALL OPERATION

YOU’RE AN OUTSIDER !
YOU’RE NOT PRIVY TO WHAT GOES ON AT NOTRE DAME !

Losses are part of football and everybody suffers losses.

If you’re a loyal and true fan you get upset with every loss your team experiences !

i consume more ND media than i care to admit. i read the articles, watch the streams, and listen to the podcasts of all the ND industry insiders/local media people and have been for many years. they 'leak' info that ND doesn't want the public to hear about all the time. You hear stuff through the grapevine and reading between the lines.

And i don't even get upset anymore. I already know what is going to happen EVERY SINGLE YEAR just by looking at the macro level data out there. It isn't that hard. I try to share it here and all it seems to do is piss people off, even when im accurate.

people want to live in a make believe fairy tale ND world and burry their head in the sand. THE DATA IS OUT THERE. THE EVIDENCE IS OUT THERE CLEAR AS DAY. yet even when everything plays out like the evidence shows that it will, STILL people turn a blind eye and shoot the messenger instead

i dont get it. ND is selling you all wolf tickets and you will not refuse to buy them

 

[Patrirish]

i consume more ND media than i care to admit. i read the articles, watch the streams, and listen to the podcasts of all the ND industry insiders/local media people and have been for many years. they 'leak' info that ND doesn't want the public to hear about all the time. You hear stuff through the grapevine and reading between the lines.

And i don't even get upset anymore. I already know what is going to happen EVERY SINGLE YEAR just by looking at the macro level data out there. It isn't that hard. I try to share it here and all it seems to do is piss people off, even when im accurate.

people want to live in a make believe fairy tale ND world and burry their head in the sand. THE DATA IS OUT THERE. THE EVIDENCE IS OUT THERE CLEAR AS DAY. yet even when everything plays out like the evidence shows that it will, STILL people turn a blind eye and shoot the messenger instead

i dont get it. ND is selling you all wolf tickets and you will not refuse to buy them

You only consume what is intended for public consumption, you have no idea as to what’s going on behind closed doors, where the rubber meets the road !

 

[bizzybecknd]

Bro miss me with this lame argument. ND got exposed in every one of those games against elite programs. on top of that, the data supports the idea that ND didn't belong anywhere near the playoff or the BCS national title game in each of those seasons. They lucked into those games and were aggressively ranked due to their brand name, not because they were an actual playoff team

Didn’t you call Michigan in the elite of CF? How does their last 4 years of recruiting stack up against ND? Talent was clearly not the gap Saturday night, in fact it looked like by all accounts ND had the better team.

In terms of Weis, the Dayne Crist example is comical.. not to mention James Aldridge. Those were recruiting misses. Weis was an awful recruiter at the team level, trenches were depleted.

 

[sjb75]

Didn’t you call Michigan in the elite of CF? How does their last 4 years of recruiting stack up against ND? Talent was clearly not the gap Saturday night, in fact it looked like by all accounts ND had the better team.

In terms of Weis, the Dayne Crist example is comical.. not to mention James Aldridge. Those were recruiting misses. Weis was an awful recruiter at the team level, trenches were depleted.

Well stated.

 

[chaseball]

Didn’t you call Michigan in the elite of CF? How does their last 4 years of recruiting stack up against ND? Talent was clearly not the gap Saturday night, in fact it looked like by all accounts ND had the better team.

In terms of Weis, the Dayne Crist example is comical.. not to mention James Aldridge. Those were recruiting misses. Weis was an awful recruiter at the team level, trenches were depleted.

Michigan has proved over the last several years that they can still dominate on the field without toping the talent charts. Their program is the outlier/exception to the rule. If you are locked inside the top 5 in F+ for multiple seasons your team is elite/extremely productive. Most teams play to the level of their talent, especially when you expand the sample size to 2,3,4+ years. Michigan is playing beyond their talent and has been for years. Harbaugh is a really good football coach.

Weis was an excellent recruiter. EVERYBODY wanted Dayne Crist and a lot of the other uber talented players Weis signed here. We went toe to toe with all of the big boys in their own backyards for the top 100/top 50/top 25 overall players and beat them for those guys. You don't recruit three top 5 classes in a row without securing a crap ton of really high end talent. The problem during Weis' time here was lack of player development. Great recruiter poor overall coach.

 

[sjb75]

"Weis was an excellent recruiter."

 

[NDinNJ]

I don't understand why this child, chaseball is still on this forum. All he does is criticize, the administration down to the players. Really what kind of fan is he? If not for the coaching blunders this team is 5-0 and ranked in the top 5.

 

[chaseball]

Also, to add to my last post: I agree that Weis' classes were offense-heavy and inconsistent on both the O and D fronts, but Weis' proved the highest end/most elite talent (the guys with all the offers and the choice to go anywhere) will choose ND over its competitors in big numbers. And ND wasn't even winning football games at the time either.

I simply don't buy the narrative/propaganda that ND can't recruit 5 star players or go toe to toe with the current powers for the nations best prospects. NDs history IS built on dominating recruiting (Weis isn't some edge case). It was a dogfight for those superstar prospects all the way down to the wire, but if Weis could do it back during the heart of the ESPN/BCS era, any coach with the right message and the support of the university can do it in 2023.

I think MF is a really good recruiter (he did really well as a D coordinator and at his previous stops) and you can just tell the guy is a really effective salesman based on how articulate and passionate he is when he speaks. I think the bottleneck/issue with lack of recruiting success goes above his pay grade.

Good leadership clears the barriers out of your way so you can do an effective job, in the case of MF it seems like he's having to fight extra hard to overcome the barriers that ND brass insists on putting in his way.

 

[NDinNJ]

"Weis was an excellent recruiter."

He also had a "schematic advantage"

 

[NDinNJ]

You’re off here. Nd has the 4th most 4 and 5 stars in 247 composite and is like number 5 for average.

We lost a game we should’ve won because of headsets. Not because of talent

Great, now we've got Chase arguing with himself.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Michigan has proved over the last several years that they can still dominate on the field without toping the talent charts. Their program is the outlier/exception to the rule. If you are locked inside the top 5 in F+ for multiple seasons your team is elite/extremely productive. Most teams play to the level of their talent, especially when you expand the sample size to 2,3,4+ years. Michigan is playing beyond their talent and has been for years. Harbaugh is a really good football coach.

Weis was an excellent recruiter. EVERYBODY wanted Dayne Crist and a lot of the other uber talented players Weis signed here. We went toe to toe with all of the big boys in their own backyards for the top 100/top 50/top 25 overall players and beat them for those guys. You don't recruit three top 5 classes in a row without securing a crap ton of really high end talent. The problem during Weis' time here was lack of player development. Great recruiter poor overall coach.

We’ll just have to aim for the Michigan model, no Top 10 classes but apparently in the elite of college football haha ND consistently out recruits UM. It can be done, you’ve moved the goal posts by stating coaching and player development are just as important.

 

[chaseball]

We’ll just have to aim for the Michigan model, no Top 10 classes but apparently in the elite of college football haha ND consistently out recruits UM. It can be done, you’ve moved the goal posts by stating coaching and player development are just as important.

I have no clue what you mean by your last sentence.

Replicating the Michigan model requires hiring who many view as the best coach in the sport right now. That is like finding a needle in a haystack.

 

[Golson5]

I have no clue what you mean by your last sentence.

Replicating the Michigan model requires hiring who many view as the best coach in the sport right now. That is like finding a needle in a haystack.

Kirby Smart is at Michigan?

 

[chaseball]

Kirby Smart is at Michigan?

Kirby Smart has a significantly greater roster. Harbaugh is getting more out of his talent than Kirby Smart is getting out of his.

Does Kirby Smart's recruiting prowess over Harbaugh's make him the better coach? Maybe. But if you were to switch these guy's rosters and play them head to head my money is on Harbaugh

 

[tbone3114]

don't look at the results of 1 game look at the aggregate results of NDs performance vs the tier 1 over the last 5/10/15+ years. The point differential is massive and we are like 0-15

I hear you and that is true... however MF shops down a different isle than BK... let's give him a chance...

 

[tbone3114]

Kirby Smart has a significantly greater roster. Harbaugh is getting more out of his talent than Kirby Smart is getting out of his.

Does Kirby Smart's recruiting prowess over Harbaugh's make him the better coach? Maybe. But if you were to switch these guy's rosters and play them head to head my money is on Harbaugh

How long has Harbaugh been there? 8-9 years. Give MF the same opportunity.. Harbaugh record the first three years 10-3 10-3 8-5... 1-6 in bowl games

 

[BGI User 756]

I have no clue what you mean by your last sentence.

Replicating the Michigan model requires hiring who many view as the best coach in the sport right now. That is like finding a needle in a haystack.

Lol, by whose view?

 

[NDSMC78]

We’ll just have to aim for the Michigan model, no Top 10 classes but apparently in the elite of college football haha ND consistently out recruits UM. It can be done, you’ve moved the goal posts by stating coaching and player development are just as important.

Exactly. After all of his ranting and raving that ND does not recruit enough 5 star players, chaseball now admits that one can put together a great team without "topping the talent charts." Or in other words, his long standing complaint about ND is BS.

 

[NDinNJ]

We should all collectively agree to stop responding to Chaseballs posts and comments. He clearly is trying to get a rise out of us. He obviously enjoys and feeds off the BS he writes in this forum, let's just stop giving him the fuel. I for one am done responding to this fools posts.

 

[Golson5]

Kirby Smart has a significantly greater roster. Harbaugh is getting more out of his talent than Kirby Smart is getting out of his.

Does Kirby Smart's recruiting prowess over Harbaugh's make him the better coach? Maybe. But if you were to switch these guy's rosters and play them head to head my money is on Harbaugh

Saban is a better coach than Harbaugh.

Recruiting is part of being a Head coach. So is winning

Saban, Smart, Dabo are better coaches than Harbaugh

Riley Day and Harbaugh are in the next group

 

[sjb75]

We should all collectively agree to stop responding to Chaseballs posts and comments. He clearly is trying to get a rise out of us. He obviously enjoys and feeds off the BS he writes in this forum, let's just stop giving him the fuel. I for one am done responding to this fools posts.

I have suggested that for months. Golson and others won't stop.

Simply a troll.

 

[Extirpate 6951]

We may get the occasional top 100 guy here and there but if the guy is in the top 50 with 40+ offers, forget about it (let alone multiples in the same class)

It's like being a fan of an organization that frustratingly/ignorantly/arrogantly refuses to draft in the 1st or 2nd round because they don't agree with the slot bonus for those picks.

And then we as fans have to turn a blind eye to it and not criticize it and use our imagination that we actually have a shot to beat the teams that do 'dance' with the elite 4 & 5 star prospects.

It makes no sense.

It's only been 35 years - give it some time!

 

[Holycrossover3]

ND dominated the recruiting landscape for the large majority of their existence. There's a reason they are at the top in heisman trophy winners, hofers, nfl players, etc. They dominated recruiting during the Weis era (Weis put an end to all the "ND can't recruit" narratives that were going around before his hire). He secured the #1 player in the country and then backed it up with a 5 star QB in Dayne Crist.

It's a matter of marketing the product better (current recruiting is all about branding) investing in the product, getting the current leadership/dinosaurs out of power at ND, getting some young energy with more ambition and vision, that has a finger on the pulse with the way the industry works in 2023 and beyond.

ND is old money/power with all the connections that matter nation wide. And with the right investments/leadership they have more upside than all but a very small handful of programs to dominate college football. Their rapidly increasing academic reputation should only be helping them on the recruiting trail; i have no clue why fans see it as a hindrance.

There’s a lot going on here but I’ll address a few. We’ve had one Heisman winner since we’ve gone to the moon. Not sure 7 heismans mean anything in 2023.

You’re correct. Clausen and Crist came because Weis coached Brady. Clausen was great but was he worth the Weis debacle? Probably not.

You speak about ND’s recruiting as if they’ve made zero adjustments in 50 years. There is zero proof that ND hasn’t adjusted at all. We’re not going to pay high school kids or lower academic standards further than they already are lowered for football players.

You speak about young energy like we don’t have Marcus Freeman and Chad Bowden (who recruits love) spearheading recruiting?

You haven’t acknowledged that in 2023 ND may not be the most attractive to many top recruits due to the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. It’s like you don’t understand why a 18 year old may want to go to Southern Cal over ND in our social media driven world.

 

[d1042]

sigh! and sigh ….

 

[sjb75]

There’s a lot going on here but I’ll address a few. We’ve had one Heisman winner since we’ve gone to the moon. Not sure 7 heismans mean anything in 2023.

You’re correct. Clausen and Crist came because Weis coached Brady. Clausen was great but was he worth the Weis debacle? Probably not.

You speak about ND’s recruiting as if they’ve made zero adjustments in 50 years. There is zero proof that ND hasn’t adjusted at all. We’re not going to pay high school kids or lower academic standards further than they already are lowered for football players.

You speak about young energy like we don’t have Marcus Freeman and Chad Bowden (who recruits love) spearheading recruiting?

You haven’t acknowledged that in 2023 ND may not be the most attractive to many top recruits due to the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. It’s like you don’t understand why a 18 year old may want to go to Southern Cal over ND in our social media driven world.

And here's another poster who fuels the flames.

 

[Holycrossover3]

And here's another poster who fuels the flames.

It’s ironic that you comment on every post you tell other’s to ignore.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Kirby Smart has a significantly greater roster. Harbaugh is getting more out of his talent than Kirby Smart is getting out of his.

Does Kirby Smart's recruiting prowess over Harbaugh's make him the better coach? Maybe. But if you were to switch these guy's rosters and play them head to head my money is on Harbaugh

Harbaugh hasn’t sniffed the success Kirby has..getting beat by TCU in the playoff doesn’t = elite. Just another misstep Chase

 

[bizzybecknd]

Saban is a better coach than Harbaugh.

Recruiting is part of being a Head coach. So is winning

Saban, Smart, Dabo are better coaches than Harbaugh

Riley Day and Harbaugh are in the next group

Wittingham is better than Harbaugh

 

[Pennick4]

Does anybody get really exasperated with the fact that chaseball is a one trick pony? He makes the same post over and over and over and over again.

Yes

 

[NDblitz]

There’s a lot going on here but I’ll address a few. We’ve had one Heisman winner since we’ve gone to the moon. Not sure 7 heismans mean anything in 2023.

You’re correct. Clausen and Crist came because Weis coached Brady. Clausen was great but was he worth the Weis debacle? Probably not.

You speak about ND’s recruiting as if they’ve made zero adjustments in 50 years. There is zero proof that ND hasn’t adjusted at all. We’re not going to pay high school kids or lower academic standards further than they already are lowered for football players.

You speak about young energy like we don’t have Marcus Freeman and Chad Bowden (who recruits love) spearheading recruiting?

You haven’t acknowledged that in 2023 ND may not be the most attractive to many top recruits due to the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. It’s like you don’t understand why a 18 year old may want to go to Southern Cal over ND in our social media driven world.

Exactly.

 

[d1042]

Hello, this is MarcusFleming.

Hi, Mr Fleming I am consesus 5* recruit next recruiting season. All my life I have dreamed of attending ND.

MF: Son, if I heard you right, and I did, our staff, and we here in the ND football staff are not interested nor recruiting 5* prospects. Thank you for your expressed interested, but (click!)


——————————————-
AYFKM! you guys are nuts!

 

[chaseball]

Hello, this is MarcusFleming.

Hi, Mr Fleming I am consesus 5* recruit next recruiting season. All my life I have dreamed of attending ND.

MF: Son, if I heard you right, and I did, our staff, and we here in the ND football staff are not interested nor recruiting 5*
prospect. Thank you foryour expressed interested, but (click!)


——————————————-
AYFKM! you guys are nuts!

more like this:

1.75 years out from signing day....

Notre Dame: Hello Mr 5 star, we'd like to let you know how lucky you are that we are interested in you and would like to extend you an offer to play football at UND. Are you ready to shut down your recruitment and commit today?

Mr 5 star: Thank you! I really like ND, definitely one of my top schools. But i am immensely valuable as a top .01% prospect in a multi billion dollar college football industry, this is the most important decision of my life, im going to let my recruitment play out, take all 5 visits, and find the best fit, and see what the industry has to offer.

Notre Dame: click

Mr 5 star: hello?

Notre Dame accepts commitment from Mr 3-4 star 1.75 years out from NSD instead.

 

[chaseball]

When I say ND doesn't dance...that is what i mean. They don't play the game, they don't compete with the other big time brands/wealthy schools down to the wire for the commit. They have a "my way or the highway" approach to recruiting that just doesn't work when you have ZERO leverage and your target has all the leverage and your competitors are willing to dance with the recruit for years, wine and dine, and wait until they make their decision.

None of the schools do this because they want to, but they do it because they have to in order to keep their foot in the door with the prospect. And they do it because they understand just how vitally important these elite top .01% prospects are.

 

[NDSMC78]

When I say ND doesn't dance...that is what i mean. They don't play the game, they don't compete with the other big time brands/wealthy schools down to the wire for the commit. They have a "my way or the highway" approach to recruiting that just doesn't work when you have ZERO leverage and your target has all the leverage and your competitors are willing to dance with the recruit for years, wine and dine, and wait until they make their decision.

None of the schools do this because they want to, but they do it because they have to in order to keep their foot in the door with the prospect. And they do it because they understand just how vitally important these elite top .01% prospects are.

Now you are back with the claim that it is important to get the very top recruits. Just the other day, you were praising Jim Harbaugh for building a top program without the best recruits. Nothing like doubletalk. That is just like you. When you are provided with facts that shoot holes in your argument, you change your argument.
If you don't like the way ND does things, that's too damn bad.

 

[Golson5]

When I say ND doesn't dance...that is what i mean. They don't play the game, they don't compete with the other big time brands/wealthy schools down to the wire for the commit. They have a "my way or the highway" approach to recruiting that just doesn't work when you have ZERO leverage and your target has all the leverage and your competitors are willing to dance with the recruit for years, wine and dine, and wait until they make their decision.

None of the schools do this because they want to, but they do it because they have to in order to keep their foot in the door with the prospect. And they do it because they understand just how vitally important these elite top .01% prospects are.

Cam Williams and CJ Carr laugh at this point. So does Guerby Lambert

And so does Deuce Knight

 

[chaseball]

Now you are back with the claim that it is important to get the very top recruits. Just the other day, you were praising Jim Harbaugh for building a top program without the best recruits. Nothing like doubletalk. That is just like you. When you are provided with facts that shoot holes in your argument, you change your argument.
If you don't like the way ND does things, that's too damn bad.

Jim Harbaugh has been able to produce top 5 seasons without top 5 talent. He's a major exception to the rule. The other 99% of college football programs in existence that don't have Jim Harbaugh have to recruit top 5 talent consistently in order to produce top 5 seasons consistently

 

[chaseball]

Cam Williams and CJ Carr laugh at this point. So does Guerby Lambert

And so does Deuce Knight

None of these guys are 5 star recruits and all of them committed anywhere from months to years in advance of signing day.

All of the big time modern powers winning in recruiting will fight for a 5 star down to the last day of their commitment all the way up to the last minute of signing day. They even fight for guys who are committed elsewhere all the way up to signing day. That is what it takes to close on those guys in this environment.

ND doesn't fight for these kids. They think they are better than them or can win without them or something (despite all the evidence to the contrary). It's ignorance/arrogance at its finest.

 

[BGI User 756]

When I say ND doesn't dance...that is what i mean. They don't play the game, they don't compete with the other big time brands/wealthy schools down to the wire for the commit. They have a "my way or the highway" approach to recruiting that just doesn't work when you have ZERO leverage and your target has all the leverage and your competitors are willing to dance with the recruit for years, wine and dine, and wait until they make their decision.

None of the schools do this because they want to, but they do it because they have to in order to keep their foot in the door with the prospect. And they do it because they understand just how vitally important these elite top .01% prospects are.

its called accountability, integrity, and fairness. Obviously traits you lack since your entitlement is present in spades

 

[BGI User 756]

None of these guys are 5 star recruits and all of them committed anywhere from months to years in advance of signing day.

All of the big time modern powers winning in recruiting will fight for a 5 star down to the last day of their commitment all the way up to the last minute of signing day. They even fight for guys who are committed elsewhere all the way up to signing day. That is what it takes to close on those guys in this environment.

ND doesn't fight for these kids. They think they are better than them or can win without them or something (despite all the evidence to the contrary). It's ignorance/arrogance at its finest.

its called intelligence. Another item lacking in your toolbox

 

[NDSMC78]

Jim Harbaugh has been able to produce top 5 seasons without top 5 talent. He's a major exception to the rule. The other 99% of college football programs in existence that don't have Jim Harbaugh have to recruit top 5 talent consistently in order to produce top 5 seasons consistently

Then stop your ranting and raving. You have just admitted that building a top team can be done without top talent.