Curious, was everyone complaining when

[NDinNJ]

Ara left a 2-time national championship program, and Dan Devine went 8-3 and 9-3 in his first two seasons at ND. Devine was left with a far better roster than Freeman, so i'm curious if there were rumblings of ousting Devine? I was a young boy, so I wasn't into the politics of such things, I was just a fan of football.

 

[HDK]

So I guess you don't remember the "Dump Devine" bumper stickers.

Seriously, Devine was loathed. Part of that was because he sucked as Packers coach. But he did have a pretty good record as a college coach before that stumble.

During his first season there were rumors that Don Shula was going to be hired to replace him.

I don't think people really ever warmed to him, in part, because he wasn't a very dynamic public presence.

 

[NDinNJ]

So I guess you don't remember the "Dump Devine" bumper stickers.

Seriously, Devine was loathed. Part of that was because he sucked as Packers coach. But he did have a pretty good record as a college coach before that stumble.

During his first season there were rumors that Don Shula was going to be hired to replace him.

I don't think people really ever warmed to him, in part, because he wasn't a very dynamic public presence.

I was 6. 😂

 

[Patrirish]

Ara left a 2-time national championship program, and Dan Devine went 8-3 and 9-3 in his first two seasons at ND. Devine was left with a far better roster than Freeman, so i'm curious if there were rumblings of ousting Devine? I was a young boy, so I wasn't into the politics of such things, I was just a fan of football.

I have to confess, I wasn’t thrilled when Devine was named.

Yes, his credentials were impressive but I was concerned about his ability to relate to college players ….. AND ….. the memory of Joe Kuharich was still fresh in my mind !

 

[NDinNJ]

I have to confess, I wasn’t thrilled when Devine was named.

Yes, his credentials were impressive but I was concerned about his ability to relate to college players ….. AND ….. the memory of Joe Kuharich was still fresh in my mind !

Thanks for the input.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

So I guess you don't remember the "Dump Devine" bumper stickers.

Seriously, Devine was loathed. Part of that was because he sucked as Packers coach. But he did have a pretty good record as a college coach before that stumble.

During his first season there were rumors that Don Shula was going to be hired to replace him.

I don't think people really ever warmed to him, in part, because he wasn't a very dynamic public presence.

I was a student at ND during the beginning of Devine's tenure. I don't think it is fair to say he was "loathed;" I certainly didn't see that. Devine was following the tenure of a beloved head coach, and that is always a difficult path to follow. Ara resigned somewhat unexpectedly, I think, because he was flat burned out, and ND didn't really have a good succession plan in place, and so we got Dan Devine. IMO Devine was a decent coach, but he wasn't charismatic at all, and his muted (if not dull) personality didn't help with how he was perceived. I heard the Don Shula rumors, but the rumors about him coming to ND circulated all the time, not just with Devine. The rumors were pure fantasy and not grounded in any fact as far as I can tell.

 

[d1042]

Ara left a 2-time national championship program, and Dan Devine went 8-3 and 9-3 in his first two seasons at ND. Devine was left with a far better roster than Freeman, so i'm curious if there were rumblings of ousting Devine? I was a young boy, so I wasn't into the politics of such things, I was just a fan of football.

ND
I believe that Devine’s time at ND was a very unhappy time. He was just never accepted and he was just the wrong guy to follow Ara.

 

[Shakin' Down the Thunder]

Devine was before my time. My father said Devine was a good coach but it was his personality that rubbed people the wrong way. Sounds like he just wasn't a charismatic guy like Freeman is.

 

[HDK]

I was a student at ND during the beginning of Devine's tenure. I don't think it is fair to say he was "loathed;" I certainly didn't see that. Devine was following the tenure of a beloved head coach, and that is always a difficult path to follow. Ara resigned somewhat unexpectedly, I think, because he was flat burned out, and ND didn't really have a good succession plan in place, and so we got Dan Devine. IMO Devine was a decent coach, but he wasn't charismatic at all, and his muted (if not dull) personality didn't help with how he was perceived. I heard the Don Shula rumors, but the rumors about him coming to ND circulated all the time, not just with Devine. The rumors were pure fantasy and not grounded in any fact as far as I can tell.

Loathed is a strong term, but I was using it to describe more how he was perceived by the hardcore ND fans, not the students in general. Although I remember a lot of students, particularly those who were really into football, did seem to loath him.

Did you know that when Ara was hired in 1964, he was Father Hesburgh's first choice, but Father Joyce wanted Devine? So I think once Ara announced his resignation, there was one call made and that was to Dan Devine who was close to being fired by the Packers.

Devine's stormy relationship with Montana didn't win him any fans.

If you watch the Joe Montana story on YouTube, you hear Montana talk about how he came to ND as one of eight QBs in his class and worked his way to the bottom by the end of his first year.

That's just nonsense because Ara quit before Montana had even completed a semester at ND. But by the time spring practice was over, Devine had moved Montana up to #2 behind Rick Slager. As a sophomore, Montana was the first QB off the bench through the 1975 season and he was the projected starter in 1976, but he separated his shoulder just before the season began and he missed the whole year.

The story, as I've always heard it was that Devine told Montana not to play in the bookstore basketball tournament that spring because he was still recovering from his shoulder injury, but Montana ignored him and played anyway.

Devine then buried him on the depth chart and only relented when he had no choice but to put Montana in against Purdue.

 

[NDinNJ]

All I know is he won a championship, and let Rudy dress and play. 😜

 

[Patrirish]

All I know is he won a championship, and let Rudy dress and play. 😜

👍

 

[tkirish]

Ara left a 2-time national championship program, and Dan Devine went 8-3 and 9-3 in his first two seasons at ND. Devine was left with a far better roster than Freeman, so i'm curious if there were rumblings of ousting Devine? I was a young boy, so I wasn't into the politics of such things, I was just a fan of football.

NDinNJ , I was a young lad as well. But I remember pretty well how Devine wasn’t a fan favorite. He went 8-3 in 1975. The players voted no on going to a bowl game because they felt they didn’t live up to their standards. In 76 that changed as they went to the Gator bowl to play Penn state. Devine was a very good coach. His defenses were really good. Only after some passage of time do you realize he was a good coach. His biggest problem was following Ara. Sort of the same way Ray Perkins followed Bear Bryant at Alabama. He did win a Championship that cannot be overstated

 

[tkirish]

Loathed is a strong term, but I was using it to describe more how he was perceived by the hardcore ND fans, not the students in general. Although I remember a lot of students, particularly those who were really into football, did seem to loath him.

Did you know that when Ara was hired in 1964, he was Father Hesburgh's first choice, but Father Joyce wanted Devine? So I think once Ara announced his resignation, there was one call made and that was to Dan Devine who was close to being fired by the Packers.

Devine's stormy relationship with Montana didn't win him any fans.

If you watch the Joe Montana story on YouTube, you hear Montana talk about how he came to ND as one of eight QBs in his class and worked his way to the bottom by the end of his first year.

That's just nonsense because Ara quit before Montana had even completed a semester at ND. But by the time spring practice was over, Devine had moved Montana up to #2 behind Rick Slager. As a sophomore, Montana was the first QB off the bench through the 1975 season and he was the projected starter in 1976, but he separated his shoulder just before the season began and he missed the whole year.

The story, as I've always heard it was that Devine told Montana not to play in the bookstore basketball tournament that spring because he was still recovering from his shoulder injury, but Montana ignored him and played anyway.

Devine then buried him on the depth chart and only relented when he had no choice but to put Montana in against Purdue.

I listened to the every game on the radio when they were only allowed on tv twice a year. I remember Montana coming in against North Carolina in 75 in his first appearance to orchestrate the comeback and win that game. I watched the highlights Sunday morning with Lyndsey Nelson and Paul Hornung. I believe the following week they were losing to Air Force like 30 -3 at halftime. Montana came in the second half and the Irish won 31-30. Listening to games every Saturday on the radio was really something. You were on every single word by the play by play announcer. Sunday mornings were always the highlights. Remember this ? “ Notre Dame was unable to sustain the drive so they punted to Purdue”. lol. Classic

 

[deadirishpoet]

I was 6. 😂

That's funny

 

[ticat]

I listened to the every game on the radio when they were only allowed on tv twice a year. I remember Montana coming in against North Carolina in 75 in his first appearance to orchestrate the comeback and win that game. I watched the highlights Sunday morning with Lyndsey Nelson and Paul Hornung. I believe the following week they were losing to Air Force like 30 -3 at halftime. Montana came in the second half and the Irish won 31-30. Listening to games every Saturday on the radio was really something. You were on every single word by the play by play announcer. Sunday mornings were always the highlights. Remember this ? “ Notre Dame was unable to sustain the drive so they punted to Purdue”. lol. Classic

You were close on the Air Force comeback...ND was down 30-10...

They were actually selling the "Dump Devine" bumper stickers that HDK referred to above for $2 outside the stadium at the '77 USC (Green Jersey Game)...I got a free one off the ground

 

[HDK]

I listened to the every game on the radio when they were only allowed on tv twice a year. I remember Montana coming in against North Carolina in 75 in his first appearance to orchestrate the comeback and win that game. I watched the highlights Sunday morning with Lyndsey Nelson and Paul Hornung. I believe the following week they were losing to Air Force like 30 -3 at halftime. Montana came in the second half and the Irish won 31-30. Listening to games every Saturday on the radio was really something. You were on every single word by the play by play announcer. Sunday mornings were always the highlights. Remember this ? “ Notre Dame was unable to sustain the drive so they punted to Purdue”. lol. Classic

Or, "After an exchange of punts...."

I saw ND play Northwestern early in '75 and Montana played in the fourth quarter. I was sitting next to some guys who were obviously serious fans and they were raving about how good he was going to be. I thought he looked kind of small and spindly.

 

[raycyrx]

Devine doesn't get enough credit for the record he had. Agreed that personality and not starting Montana had a lot to do with that.

 

[burmafrd1943]

following a legend is pretty tough

and Devine was described once as being as charismatic as a dish of cold mashed potatoes

BUT he was a good coach; the Packers front office was weak when he was there and he got the blame for organizational weakness that he really could do nothing about

 

[raycyrx]

7-4 was his worst season. Overall record .764 at ND. One NC. That makes him one of the top coaches of my lifetime (behind only Holtz and Ara).

 

[IrishExpert2288]

Ara left a 2-time national championship program, and Dan Devine went 8-3 and 9-3 in his first two seasons at ND. Devine was left with a far better roster than Freeman, so i'm curious if there were rumblings of ousting Devine? I was a young boy, so I wasn't into the politics of such things, I was just a fan of football.

I was around then, and the answer to your question was heck yes!! Had there been a social media it would have been a fire storm. ND started the 1977 season #1, then beat Pitt minus Tony Dorsett in the opener on the road, and then lost to a crummy Ole Miss team on the road in the second game of the season.

Then in the 3rd game of the season ND was losing 14-24 to Purdue, when Devine pulled his starting QB (Rusty Lisch), and inserted this kid named Joe Montana, ND came back and won that game 31-14, and won the next 2 games as well.

But even at 4-1, it was rumored if Dan Devine, did not beat USC at home in 1977, he would be gone at the end of the year. Well, ND put on the Green Jerseys, beat USC 49-19, and went on to win the rest of their games in the regular season, and beat #1 Texas and Earl Campbell in the Cotton Bowl. Thanks to Lou Holtz and Arkansas, upsetting #2 OU in the Orange Bowl, ND leap frogged #3 Alabama in the Final Polls, and won the National Championship. And Dan Devine was safe for the remainder of his tenure.

 

[echowaker]

7-4 was his worst season. Overall record .764 at ND. One NC. That makes him one of the top coaches of my lifetime (behind only Holtz and Ara).

Devine had a better coaching career overall than Holtz did in my opinion. Compare their records. Not sure if Devine ever had a losing season in college. He certainly never had an 0 fer like Holtz did.

 

[HDK]

following a legend is pretty tough

and Devine was described once as being as charismatic as a dish of cold mashed potatoes

BUT he was a good coach; the Packers front office was weak when he was there and he got the blame for organizational weakness that he really could do nothing about

I'm quite certain that Devine was also the general manager of the Packers. He executed a trade for John Hadl, the washed up QB of the San Diego Chargers, that involved a ton of first, second, and third round draft picks. It hampered the Packers for a decade.

 

[HDK]

Devine had a better coaching career overall than Holtz did in my opinion. Compare their records. Not sure if Devine ever had a losing season in college. He certainly never had an 0 fer like Holtz did.

The 7-4 year was my senior year. Tons of injuries and a very young team. The following year, Devine came close to winning his second national championship.

My biggest complaint about Devine was that he would just keep trying to run the ball all game long. If it wasn't working by the fourth quarter, he'd let his QB start to pass.

 

[burmafrd1943]

I'm quite certain that Devine was also the general manager of the Packers. He executed a trade for John Hadl, the washed up QB of the San Diego Chargers, that involved a ton of first, second, and third round draft picks. It hampered the Packers for a decade.

You are correct; I thought he was not. He had 4 years but by the time he was there the Pacers were pretty sad; so maybe he just was unable to fix things.
Looking at that trade it was too much BUT Hadl had just come off a ALL PRO SEASON and appeared to have several more excellent ones to come. SO your claim about him being washed up at the time of the trade is crap. The picks in 75 and 76 pretty much gutted those drafts but to say that affected them for a decade is BS.

 

[HDK]

You are correct; I thought he was not. He had 4 years but by the time he was there the Pacers were pretty sad; so maybe he just was unable to fix things.
Looking at that trade it was too much BUT Hadl had just come off a ALL PRO SEASON and appeared to have several more excellent ones to come. SO your claim about him being washed up at the time of the trade is crap. The picks in 75 and 76 pretty much gutted those drafts but to say that affected them for a decade is BS.

Why can't you have a polite conversation? It's really not that hard to be civil.,

You could simply say my claim about him being washed up was wrong or incorrect. Instead, you have to say it's "crap." Or that my suggestion that the trade hurt the Packers for a decade was overstating the case? Instead, it's BS as if I'm making it up. I'm surprised you didn't add that I had lied when I said Hadl came to the Packers from the Chargers when it was actually the Rams.

I will add that I know Hadl had an arm injury by the time he came to the Packers, so in a sense, he was pretty much washed up by the time the Packers traded for him.

And while, you are correct that two first round, two second round and 1 third round pick didn't completely ruin the Packers for a decade, it definitely hurt them for years to come.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

Loathed is a strong term, but I was using it to describe more how he was perceived by the hardcore ND fans, not the students in general. Although I remember a lot of students, particularly those who were really into football, did seem to loath him.

Did you know that when Ara was hired in 1964, he was Father Hesburgh's first choice, but Father Joyce wanted Devine? So I think once Ara announced his resignation, there was one call made and that was to Dan Devine who was close to being fired by the Packers.

Devine's stormy relationship with Montana didn't win him any fans.

If you watch the Joe Montana story on YouTube, you hear Montana talk about how he came to ND as one of eight QBs in his class and worked his way to the bottom by the end of his first year.

That's just nonsense because Ara quit before Montana had even completed a semester at ND. But by the time spring practice was over, Devine had moved Montana up to #2 behind Rick Slager. As a sophomore, Montana was the first QB off the bench through the 1975 season and he was the projected starter in 1976, but he separated his shoulder just before the season began and he missed the whole year.

The story, as I've always heard it was that Devine told Montana not to play in the bookstore basketball tournament that spring because he was still recovering from his shoulder injury, but Montana ignored him and played anyway.

Devine then buried him on the depth chart and only relented when he had no choice but to put Montana in against Purdue.

I did not know about the Devine/Fr. Joyce connection. Interesting.

I played interhall bball against Joe Montana while I was a student at ND. Joe was a good player. Had lots of hops, and could shoot the ball. I also played against Frank Allocco, who was the second string QB under Tom Clements. He was a very good player, too. My best memory of playing hoops at ND was playing pickup games at the Rock. On occasion some of the men's bball team players would show up during the off season, probably just to keep in shape. I played in one game where Adrian Dantley was on the opposing team. (Thankfully, I did not have to guard him, and I use the word "guard" rather loosely.) I remember being surprised that AD was actually not that tall, and he didn't seem like much of a jumper. But he had absolutely massive hands, and once he got his hands on a ball, it was his. And he was uncannily good under the basket. He mostly shot from the outside during the game I saw him play, I imagine because he was trying to work on his jumper. He scored at will underneath when he wanted to, without hardly breaking into a sweat.

You also saw football and basketball players playing in the annual bookstore basketball tournament. Imagine having someone like Eli Raridon on your team.

I wonder if athletes participating in varsity sports are now forbidden to play interhall ball? I would imagine so, but anyone know? It was one of the cool things I remember about attending ND, but times are different now.

 

[burmafrd1943]

Why can't you have a polite conversation? It's really not that hard to be civil.,

You could simply say my claim about him being washed up was wrong or incorrect. Instead, you have to say it's "crap." Or that my suggestion that the trade hurt the Packers for a decade was overstating the case? Instead, it's BS as if I'm making it up. I'm surprised you didn't add that I had lied when I said Hadl came to the Packers from the Chargers when it was actually the Rams.

I will add that I know Hadl had an arm injury by the time he came to the Packers, so in a sense, he was pretty much washed up by the time the Packers traded for him.

And while, you are correct that two first round, two second round and 1 third round pick didn't completely ruin the Packers for a decade, it definitely hurt them for years to come.

The Arm injury was problematical and thought to be nothing serious at the time of the trade. Once again you did not bother to check your facts and you think you should skate on that? Tough.IT was not a great trade due to the costs but it had potential to be worth if with the facts in hand at the time of the trade. You claimed it doomed the pack for a decade and you are wrong there as well.
I have little patience for people who do not check their facts and I do not apologize for it.
Checking further into the Packer situation he was GM but did not have full control; the Packers have a unique setup being community owned and also at that time there was a lot of dead wood in the organization that were protected from getting fired at that time. Now would Devine have done it? Was he tough enough to really use an axe on all that dead wood? We don't know but probably not; he did not strike me as someone ruthless enough.

as regards coaching in college look at how many excellent college coaches failed in the NFL. Lou was one of them.
Barry Switzer and Jimmy Johnson with the Cowboys and Pete Carol of the Seahawks are the only three coaches I can remember that won a College National Championship and a Super Bowl as well.

At the time the Irish took Devine I thought at the time it was a good hire but not a great one. But I also knew that the decision Ara made came suddenly and Notre Dame was clearly not prepared. I think it is clear they could have done better; at that time being HC at Notre Dame was near the very top of college HC jobs.

Now who we could have got is a fascinating what if.

 

[HDK]

I did not know about the Devine/Fr. Joyce connection. Interesting.

I played interhall bball against Joe Montana while I was a student at ND. Joe was a good player. Had lots of hops, and could shoot the ball. I also played against Frank Allocco, who was the second string QB under Tom Clements. He was a very good player, too. My best memory of playing hoops at ND was playing pickup games at the Rock. On occasion some of the men's bball team players would show up during the off season, probably just to keep in shape. I played in one game where Adrian Dantley was on the opposing team. (Thankfully, I did not have to guard him, and I use the word "guard" rather loosely.) I remember being surprised that AD was actually not that tall, and he didn't seem like much of a jumper. But he had absolutely massive hands, and once he got his hands on a ball, it was his. And he was uncannily good under the basket. He mostly shot from the outside during the game I saw him play, I imagine because he was trying to work on his jumper. He scored at will underneath when he wanted to, without hardly breaking into a sweat.

You also saw football and basketball players playing in the annual bookstore basketball tournament. Imagine having someone like Eli Raridon on your team.

I wonder if athletes participating in varsity sports are now forbidden to play interhall ball? I would imagine so, but anyone know? It was one of the cool things I remember about attending ND, but times are different now.

I do recall on this board someone talking about playing interhall football when Dorsey Levens, a tailback who later transferred to Georgia Tech, I think, played on the other team. Levens was apparently suspended from the football team or on academic probation at the time. I honestly can't believe that they would let someone of that size and skillset play. No wonder internal tackle football is no more.

I do recall in the late 70s when I was at ND that they allowed varsity basketball and football players to play in the bookstore tournament. Later, they stopped letting basketball players play unless they had exhausted their eligibility.

I was also at a pickup game at the Rock when Toby Knight, who was starting center and about 6-10, showed up. I did not have to play against his team, thank God.

 

[HDK]

I was around then, and the answer to your question was heck yes!! Had there been a social media it would have been a fire storm. ND started the 1977 season #1, then beat Pitt minus Tony Dorsett in the opener on the road, and then lost to a crummy Ole Miss team on the road in the second game of the season.

Then in the 3rd game of the season ND was losing 14-24 to Purdue, when Devine pulled his starting QB (Rusty Lisch), and inserted this kid named Joe Montana, ND came back and won that game 31-14, and won the next 2 games as well.

But even at 4-1, it was rumored if Dan Devine, did not beat USC at home in 1977, he would be gone at the end of the year. Well, ND put on the Green Jerseys, beat USC 49-19, and went on to win the rest of their games in the regular season, and beat #1 Texas and Earl Campbell in the Cotton Bowl. Thanks to Lou Holtz and Arkansas, upsetting #2 OU in the Orange Bowl, ND leap frogged #3 Alabama in the Final Polls, and won the National Championship. And Dan Devine was safe for the remainder of his tenure.

I need to quibble just a bit here. It wasn't like Devine just stumbled on "this kid Montana," who was warming the bench. Montana was the QB everyone on the team (including, I'm sure, Devine himself)and probably every serious fan knew was the guy who should be starting. But due to their falling out, Devine wasn't going to play him. Lisch was the starter and was either ineffective or got hurt, so Devine went to the backup Gary Forystek until he almost got killed. I think Devine tried to go back to Lisch yet again until he finally had no choice but to turn to Montana, who led the team to 17 straight points and a 31-24 win.

 

[tbonesays]

Thanks, it is great to hear the stories from people who were there.

 

[raycyrx]

Devine had a better coaching career overall than Holtz did in my opinion. Compare their records. Not sure if Devine ever had a losing season in college. He certainly never had an 0 fer like Holtz did.

Devine took over a program from Ara... no rebuilding. Holtz took over from Faust and had to start all over, lost 5 games by a total of 14 points in the first season, and took the team to a NYD bowl the second year. Also, Holtz had three seasons with only one loss... two of which were arguably nattys.

Devine was very good. Holtz was great.
In my opinion.

 

[raycyrx]

I need to quibble just a bit here. It wasn't like Devine just stumbled on "this kid Montana," who was warming the bench. Montana was the QB everyone on the team (including, I'm sure, Devine himself)and probably every serious fan knew was the guy who should be starting. But due to their falling out, Devine wasn't going to play him. Lisch was the starter and was either ineffective or got hurt, so Devine went to the backup Gary Forystek until he almost got killed. I think Devine tried to go back to Lisch yet again until he finally had no choice but to turn to Montana, who led the team to 17 straight points and a 31-24 win.

I was in middle school at the time. It was obvious to even us kids who was the better QB, and we were all puzzled how JM could be 2nd string. Joe says in the very good documentary about him that he wasn't ready to be starter. Outside observers... observed otherwise.

 

[HDK]

I have little patience for people who do not check their facts and I do not apologize for it.
Checking further into the Packer situation he was GM but did not have full control; the Packers have a unique setup being community owned and also at that time there was a lot of dead wood in the organization that were protected from getting fired at that time. Now would Devine have done it? Was he tough enough to really use an axe on all that dead wood? We don't know but probably not; he did not strike me as someone ruthless enough.

as regards coaching in college look at how many excellent college coaches failed in the NFL. Lou was one of them.
Barry Switzer and Jimmy Johnson with the Cowboys and Pete Carol of the Seahawks are the only three coaches I can remember that won a College National Championship and a Super Bowl as well.

At the time the Irish took Devine I thought at the time it was a good hire but not a great one. But I also knew that the decision Ara made came suddenly and Notre Dame was clearly not prepared. I think it is clear they could have done better; at that time being HC at Notre Dame was near the very top of college HC jobs.

Now who we could have got is a fascinating what if.

Sorry I did not see your reply last night when I was back on this thread. And I didn't want you to think I was dodging you.

But yeah, it's true, my memory wasn't completely acccurate,. but we are talking about things that took place nearly 50 years ago. I guess I could have gone back and checked my facts, but I'd say I was closer to being accurate than being inaccurate. And if you held everyone to that standard (checking all facts, that is) this board would be pretty quiet.

You are correct that the Packers, being a community owned team, were not well run as the NFL grew in prominence and TV contracts got more lucrative, etc.... There was talk over the 10-15 years that maybe times had passed little Green Bay by and it sure seemed that way until the mid-90s when Holmgren became coach and the Packers got Favre.