Complicated schemes

[deadirishpoet]

It's a bit crazy to try to defend our defensive play under Van Gorder, or to buy into the complicated scheme argument 100%. It simply hasn't been very good, with a few exceptions. It's also a bit crazy to ignore the impact of all the injuries in both of his seasons. Neither explain the poor fundamentals, and that bothers me the most. Our def backfield play stands out for obvious criticism, as well it should, but we can't ignore the fact the defense consists of eleven positions and all eleven positions need to be working well for the whole to run as designed. You can't give opposing QBs all the time in the world as most will eventually find an open receiver, and the fact our Front seven hasn't created enough pressure on the opposing QBs is a significant part of our DB problems. No, this had nothing to do with the last pass play at Stanford, but it had a lot to do with Hogan having a career night. Complicated scheme is clearly part of the problem, but injuries, defensive play calling, lack of a pass rush, and poor fundamentals have all contributed to two years of poor defense performance. We need this fixed, and Kelly knows that better than any of us.

The story of the game was Stanford going 5 for 5 in the Red Zone with 5 TDs while ND settled for 3 FGs and a TD .

The defense is not the straw man. Sure something can and should get better on that side of the ball, but the defense can only do so much against the top teams in the nation when the offense is sputtering n the red zone and coach Kelly knows that better than any of us

 

[perseverare]

yes, but when the game was on the line (more than once this season) the offense led by DK came through!

 

[deadirishpoet]

yes, but when the game was on the line (more than once this season) the offense led by DK came through!

Not in the Red Zone, and that's where championships are won

 

[perseverare]

against SU that was a go ahead TD - in the RZ! And you find fault with DK scoring from outside the 20?

 

[deadirishpoet]

against SU that was a go ahead TD - in the RZ! And you find fault with DK scoring from outside the 20?

No brother I like the big hits for TD's, but against championship quality teams they come few and far between.

Which go ahead and, and stay ahead opportunity was responsible to not maintaining the lead. I'm not saying ND needs to score every possession in the red zone TD's but to improve from 90 percent to IDK lets say 50 percent in the SU game alone the Irish would be looking at a playoff birth.

 

[perseverare]

^ if you cannt defend for 30 secs then ....

 

[echowaker]

His upside is huge and he'll be playing on Sundays.....

The problem as identified by Max is scheme.

An eloquent and confident speaker, Redfield has carried 18-credit academic course loads at Notre Dame per semester, most notably learning Mandarin Chinese. When asked whether VanGorder's defense or Chinese was more difficult, he paused.

"That's a pretty good question," he responded. "I would say consistently being successful in that scheme is harder than learning Chinese." Apply that thought to every guy and know that Redfield had extraordinary HS coaching..

In addition, bvg fuels that "difficulty fire":

“You never know with VanGorder,” defensive end Isaac Rochell said. “… Two years with the same defense we start to understand concepts more, and then we can kind of get a feel for what’s going on and what he might call. But he throws curveballs all the time.”

"Notre Dame’s defense allowed 43 points per game without linebacker Joe Schmidt last November."

That's an indictment of a whole unit, not individuals....

http://www.csnchicago.com/notre-dame/notre-dame-understanding-‘why’-brian-vangorder-year-2

what's max going to say ? "i'm not that good " ? if he improves he certainly has the physical gifts to play on sunday. at this point he's been a huge disappointment given his abilities. you also said cam mcdaniel and everett golson would play on sundays i believe.

 

[echowaker]

Houston, just removing the schematics from discussion it is without a doubt the tackling was lackluster. Matter of fact only Day was good at it.
So removing everything from discussion but the simplest of things demanded of from a defender, tackling, it's pretty safe to say we are very lousy at that.
That is in fact under the watch of one BVG.

dead horse alert !

 

[deadirishpoet]

^ if you cannt defend for 30 secs then ....

Defending against a team which only needs a FG to win is very difficult for quality defenses. Especially when the opposing team has a very good field goal kicker. Trading TD's for FG will not win every time

 

[Irish Grandeur]

It's time for BVG to look himself in the mirror, swallow his pride, and come to the conclusion that he does not have to play NFL defensive schemes in CFB. The players do not have the time like NFL players have to learn them and most college teams do not run NFL style offenses. Some of his best coaching came when he was forced to get away from NFL defensive schemes and defend the option. Time for the entire staff to look its collective self in the mirror and make the tweaks necessary to finish the 2016 race to the championship.

 

[NDinHouston]

Stop with not having enough time. Don't be fooled by that. These kids spend a lot of time learning play books etc... Don't think for a second these kids aren't off studying on their own and calling coaches asking questions. I know there are rules about time spent during the week but don't think those rules aren't broken. 2 hours a day practicing 4 - 5 days a week all season and during the spring should be plenty of TIME to learn the defensive play book.

 

[Irish Grandeur]

Stop with not having enough time. Don't be fooled by that. These kids spend a lot of time learning play books etc... Don't think for a second these kids aren't off studying on their own and calling coaches asking questions. I know there are rules about time spent during the week but don't think those rules aren't broken. 2 hours a day practicing 4 - 5 days a week all season and during the spring should be plenty of TIME to learn the defensive play book.

Well, since you say it then it must be true

 

[kellys heroes 35]

I typically don't question coaches - but I struggle with the fact that VG did not blitz at least five and maybe even six guys on Stanfords last series . I would not have given Hogan any time to make a read PERIOD !!!


Blitz five or six and have someone shadow McCaffrey and the kid that made the catch ( he killed us the whole game so he would get special attention ) is how I would have played those last two plays .. The three remaining defenders job would have been don't let anyone get behind you in a three across look .

If you blitz five you have someone on mccaffrey and the kid who caught the ball and the remaining four defenders ( third level ) could have played a standard zone package .

 

[cgvr]

what's max going to say ? "i'm not that good " ? if he improves he certainly has the physical gifts to play on sunday. at this point he's been a huge disappointment given his abilities. you also said cam mcdaniel and everett golson would play on sundays i believe.

I believe you're wrong. I'm also more disappointed in the coaching staff than any of the players. The stanford choke was epic and indicative of this staff's deficiencies in winning big games.

I said I was attending private workouts with Cam (along with other ND/NFL current and former players). I wrote that he had lined up a tryout with the Cowboys. I also said that kelly's criticism of cam was that he wasn't quick enough.

"However, With scouts from 28 NFL teams at Notre Dame, the 5-foot-9, 185-pounder performed well in testing. In the three-cone drill, used to measure quickness in changing direction, he notched a time of 6.78 seconds. That time was better than any running back at the NFL Scouting Combine in February." That fact was pointed out to me by a McDaniel family friend among other things....

In addition, I do believe that Golson will get an NFL look.

 

[Java65]

My issues with the defense the last couple years in order are;
- Poor fundamentals. Horrible tackling, poor angels, etc.
- Lack of understanding by far too many players. 1 or 2 I can understand but virtually ever player seemed to be confused far to many times. Either the scheme is too complicated for CFB or poor teaching.
- Lack of turnovers / negative plays. If BVG wants to run an aggressive defense that's fine but if you do you need to create turnovers and sacks. ND has not been at either the last 2 years. That defense will give up big plays but it also requires TO and sacks to be successful.

No matter what defense they run if your players can't tackle it's not going to be very good.

 

[cgvr]

My issues with the defense the last couple years in order are;
- Poor fundamentals. Horrible tackling, poor angels, etc.
- Lack of understanding by far too many players. 1 or 2 I can understand but virtually ever player seemed to be confused far to many times. Either the scheme is too complicated for CFB or poor teaching.
- Lack of turnovers / negative plays. If BVG wants to run an aggressive defense that's fine but if you do you need to create turnovers and sacks. ND has not been at either the last 2 years. That defense will give up big plays but it also requires TO and sacks to be successful.

No matter what defense they run if your players can't tackle it's not going to be very good.

Dropping 280+ pound linemen into pass coverage is way too "fancy" for me....

 

[perseverare]

well, hopefully, by the end of the next couple weeks all the in bickering will have given way to recruiting news euphoria!

 

[Irish437]

There is clearly a disconnect. The middle of the field is always open. The Cover 0 defense. We saw it for the last half of last year and it was there again against Stanford big time. It was probably there for everyone, its just against the lesser teams the QBs couldn't read it or the front 4 were getting pressure. Give any QB time to throw and they will have a player open in the middle against Van Gorder.

 

[echowaker]

I believe you're wrong. I'm also more disappointed in the coaching staff than any of the players. The stanford choke was epic and indicative of this staff's deficiencies in winning big games.

I said I was attending private workouts with Cam (along with other ND/NFL current and former players). I wrote that he had lined up a tryout with the Cowboys. I also said that kelly's criticism of cam was that he wasn't quick enough.

"However, With scouts from 28 NFL teams at Notre Dame, the 5-foot-9, 185-pounder performed well in testing. In the three-cone drill, used to measure quickness in changing direction, he notched a time of 6.78 seconds. That time was better than any running back at the NFL Scouting Combine in February." That fact was pointed out to me by a McDaniel family friend among other things....

In addition, I do believe that Golson will get an NFL look.

of course he'll get a look and he should. concerning cam it appears kellys assessment was correct. workout quickness and game quickness are two vastly different things.

 

[echowaker]

Dropping 280+ pound linemen into pass coverage is way too "fancy" for me....

it's not fancy, it's done by design to disrupt.

 

[cgvr]

of course he'll get a look and he should. concerning cam it appears kellys assessment was correct. workout quickness and game quickness are two vastly different things.

No. A person's speed doesn't change. What they are up against does.... If you think Eric Dickerson was slower working out than in games or vice versa you'd be wrong.....

 

[deadirishpoet]

No. A person's speed doesn't change. What they are up against does.... If you think Eric Dickerson was slower working out than in games or vice versa you'd be wrong.....

Josh Adams sure isn't slower between the two I'm sure.

 

[FLballcoach1]

ND was not playing 0 Coverage on the last play, ND was playing 2 Deep 5 Under Zone. The problem was not the call of that coverage, the problem was the execution, Even though you are playing Zone pass defense and are giving a 10 yard cushion, Once the receiver comes vertical for 8-10 yards it becomes man to man, The ND slot defender simply turned the Stanford receiver loose when he broke to the post and the Safeties were too deep to make a play on the ball,

That is what Brian Kelly meant when he said in the Press Conference "you have to play tighter on the seam route". Now, if that is coaching or simply a player screwing up I don't know, only the guys at practice can answer that question.

 

[Irish437]

ND was not playing 0 Coverage on the last play, ND was playing 2 Deep 5 Under Zone. The problem was not the call of that coverage, the problem was the execution, Even though you are playing Zone pass defense and are giving a 10 yard cushion, Once the receiver comes vertical for 8-10 yards it becomes man to man, The ND slot defender simply turned the Stanford receiver loose when he broke to the post and the Safeties were too deep to make a play on the ball,

That is what Brian Kelly meant when he said in the Press Conference "you have to play tighter on the seam route". Now, if that is coaching or simply a player screwing up I don't know, only the guys at practice can answer that question.

They are never playing a cover 0, that's just what I call it when the middle is wide open repeatedly. Go back and watch the tapes from the last 5 regular season games last year and the Stanford game. How can the seam rout be open at will? The players don't understand their assignments, the question is why, does Van Gorder speak dutch at practice?

 

[perseverare]

"...that's just what I call it when the middle is wide open...."

aka: zero WR's covered

how come you didn't give us a fancy diagram!

but:
Cover 0 is a strict man-to-man alignment where each defensive back covers one ...

 

[deadirishpoet]

ND was not playing 0 Coverage on the last play, ND was playing 2 Deep 5 Under Zone. The problem was not the call of that coverage, the problem was the execution, Even though you are playing Zone pass defense and are giving a 10 yard cushion, Once the receiver comes vertical for 8-10 yards it becomes man to man, The ND slot defender simply turned the Stanford receiver loose when he broke to the post and the Safeties were too deep to make a play on the ball,

That is what Brian Kelly meant when he said in the Press Conference "you have to play tighter on the seam route". Now, if that is coaching or simply a player screwing up I don't know, only the guys at practice can answer that question.

As I've posted. It would of been very difficult for any defense in the nation to prevent Stanford to get into FG range with that kicker.

 

[FLballcoach1]

If there is no Safety in the middle of the field. The middle of the field is open. So Cover 2, 4 , 6 and Tampa 2 leaves the middle of the field open.

So if a receiver runs down the middle of the defense. Somebody on defense has to run with him and knock the ball away or intercept the pass. It didn't happen Saturday. Why I don't know. Could be a dozen reasons.

 

[echowaker]

No. A person's speed doesn't change. What they are up against does.... If you think Eric Dickerson was slower working out than in games or vice versa you'd be wrong.....

straight line speed and running a 3 cone are quite different than what presents itself in the course of a game. being quick around a cone that isn't moving is hardly the same. think dickerson eluded a defender as quickly as he went around a stationary cone ?

 

[echowaker]

No. A person's speed doesn't change. What they are up against does.... If you think Eric Dickerson was slower working out than in games or vice versa you'd be wrong.....

big difference in speed and quickness.

 

[echowaker]

Josh Adams sure isn't slower between the two I'm sure.

two different entities. one clear of obstruction, the other is not. why do sprinters cover 100 meters faster than hurdlers do ?