WHY DO WE CONTINUE TO HEAR THIS? We heard it under Charlie Weis and now we hear it with VanGorder. I don't get it. The announcers on TV even comment on how difficult his defense is to learn and understand. We heard the same thing about Charlie Weis and his offense. I watch a lot of college football and never hear this said about any other teams coaches. However at ND where the kids are usually the smartest out of most schools the offense and defensive schemes are so difficult to understand. I call BS on this and it's a bunch of excuses. So many dumb players from all colleges make it to the NFL and excell in very complex schemes and become PRO BOWLERS and HALL OF FAMERS. For crying out loud we have players taking calculus and chemistry but can't draw up a freaking football play? I smell bullshit every time I hear this complaint. Just my feelings on this argument. Sorry for the rant.
Complicated schemes
- Thread starter NDinHouston
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Do you think they are going to tell you the truth - "We don't really have a clue why our defense sucks even though we have future NFL first rounders and kids who can graduate in three years and speak 3 languages." Football is far more difficult than Mandarin evidently. Coach speak fed to broadcasters and beat reporters.
We hear it from the coaches themselves when they allude to players not grasping the system.
After 3 years and the inability of highly recruited players failing to fully operate within the 'system' there can be few other explanations. The staff will be interviewing Physics majors in an effort to replace J Schmidt in '16!
A traffic cone with a 150 IQ.
Redfield said it. He had some of the best HS coaching in the country. Plus, he played both sides of the ball.....
Again, for those who've been around the game for a minute. Classroom competency doesn't necessarily translate to football competency Two different arenas.
Taking a cheap shot at Joe Schmidt? Very classy. Aren't you Mr."the players deserve better"? Then you cheap shot at a kid.You obviously lack training and insight to give a credible critique of players and coaches. So
you are forced to resort to that type of garbage.
Fortunately I'm not forced to read such nonsense and youll be the newest member of the "misfit toy" list on ignore.
Good Riddance.
Taking a cheap shot at Joe Schmidt? Very classy. Aren't you Mr."the players deserve better"? Then you cheap shot at a kid.You obviously lack training and insight to give a credible critique of players and coaches. So
you are forced to resort to that type of garbage.
Fortunately I'm not forced to read such nonsense and youll be the newest member of the "misfit toy" list on ignore.
Good Riddance.
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I don't BS the forum by pretense; I just give the truth of the matter.
I do see through your posts. I am not impressed.
I would actually encourage your ignoring my comments. It is a waste of your time; your mindset ignore infirmation and change, your have a conclusion and you will stay with it regardless.
I do see through your posts. I am not impressed.
I would actually encourage your ignoring my comments. It is a waste of your time; your mindset ignore infirmation and change, your have a conclusion and you will stay with it regardless.
LOL, you tell em coach. Into the corn field with the rest of the trolls. But on a serious note there has been a lot of talk about VanGorder's schemes. Do you think he's making the defense too complicated? Our players seem to be confused way to often about what their responsibilities are.
Which credible person has seen the defense playbook and agrees they are too complicated. Players that do not get the playbook may be the incorrect people to ask about its difficulty.
so it is not too complicated, it is just to complicated for the players. Ok, then.
and to be objective, I have read comments that BVG is indeed out there recruiting.
DIP?! this offense performed at elite levels most of the year, what is your complaint ?
Is this not the best offense that Kelly has had at ND?
and to be objective, I have read comments that BVG is indeed out there recruiting.
DIP?! this offense performed at elite levels most of the year, what is your complaint ?
Is this not the best offense that Kelly has had at ND?
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Redfield had more than a half dozen former NFL players coaching him in HS. Included in that group were 2 former NFL quarterbacks and their father. He even spent a season or 2 with "throw me the damn ball." This is a minor snapshot. His football knowledge is superior. His saying bvg's scheme is harder than mandarin should raise eyebrows. The football coach here is correct about classroom competency and field competency. There is also a difference between practice and game speed. A major concern is that if the starters are having problems when you have to go to the bench then those problems will more than likely magnify....
PS I wish we had some semblance of a defense other than the surrender we displayed to end the Stanford game and our title hopes... that was as bad as it gets at the worst possible time...
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Whichever it may be it seems the players or not catching on to the scheme. Either way, it comes down to coaching.
A defense should not be so complicated it takes three years to learn it. That means a fifth year senior would only be effective his redshirt senior year and his fifth year.
A four-year (and done) senior would only be effective his fourth year.
That is crazy.
A four-year (and done) senior would only be effective his fourth year.
That is crazy.
okay,
for sure BVG must know something about defensive coaching or Kelly would not have hired him.
for sure what he is doing has not been consistantly successful
for sure he cannot continue to do the same things and suddenly find success; corrections needed
for sure there is sufficient brain power on this staff to figure this out! so do it!
for sure BVG must know something about defensive coaching or Kelly would not have hired him.
for sure what he is doing has not been consistantly successful
for sure he cannot continue to do the same things and suddenly find success; corrections needed
for sure there is sufficient brain power on this staff to figure this out! so do it!
Bodizephax
I've posted how many times?
People usually respect traffic cones. But Schmidt every one runs over and through.
I kid !! I kid !up to this point he's been a huge disappointment. great physical skills but the game does not seem to come natural to him like it does to some others. look at joe s. limited skill set but great feel for the game. if redfield had the same he'd be an all american and sure fire first rounder.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/players.php?genpos=FS&draftyear=2017&sortorder=tsxpos&order=ASC
3rd in tackles this year...1 behind Schmidt....
Last year 2nd in tackles....
"The athletic safety turned in an “outstanding camp,” Kelly said, but suffered a broken thumb in the first defensive series of the season opener against Texas. Redfield underwent surgery and started the next week against Virginia, playing with the massive cast still encrusted on his right hand. Against Georgia Tech’s triple-option, Redfield did not play."
Farley, drawing on what former Irish safety Zeke Motta once told him, advised Redfield that the bone was already broken.
“They’ll just put some more screws and plates in it, so you can’t think about it,” Farley quipped.
As exemplified by his jawing, Redfield played with emotion and passion against the Tigers in the heartbreaking loss. Irish head coach Brian Kelly called the performance Redfield’s best in a Notre Dame uniform.
“That’s the kind of football he’s capable of,” Kelly said of Redfield, a former 5-star recruit who made one start as a freshman in 2013 before logging 11 starts last season.
“He was just focused. He was playing possessed,” Irish fifth-year captain and defensive back Matthias Farley said. “He was all over the field. He made plays way down the field. He made plays in the backfield. He was really, really locked in. When the lights shine bright, Max plays really, really well.”
Redfield agreed he elevated his play and matched the stakes of the marquee matchup in Death Valley, his high point so far this season.
“I saw the Max Redfield that we all know,” junior cornerback Cole Luke said. “Certain people are different ways. The hype of the game could calm somebody down or it could actually bump them up like it did for Max.”
Max has bitten a number of times on fakes and at that position there's no help....it's magnified.
When I asked Leroy Irvin about the life of an NFL corner (same goes with safety) he told me a great story.
He told me about guarding a sprinter turned NFL WR. The guy torched him in the 4th 1/4 and said in the end zone, "Hey Leroy, one play... ruin your day...."
I will be forever grateful to Max for the outstanding punctuation he put on the last michigan game.
That was beautiful.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-max-redfield-builds-off-best-game-with-irish
Take a breather...and listen to me very carefully.
BVG has come full circle back to college....however he did so coaching in the NFL.
CW made hay in the NFL.
Why do I bring this up and the tie in with complicated schemes and our players. ....
You see we might have the smartest players outside the ivy league but they are students dedicating time to studies. I.e. not able to dedicate it to film, schemes, matchups etc.
The pro athlete can study the game plan, scouting report etc for 6 hours every day then hit the turf for another two hours. The student athlete....can't do this.
So there is some merit to the complex excuse but they just aren't telling the whole story.
could care less about tackle stats. i see a physically gifted athlete who struggles in the fundamentals of the position he plays. unfortunately for nd he's the best they have currently. had tranquil not gotten injured he would have gotten the bulk of the time . that said the entire secondary has struggled mightily this year. is the problem the new position coach ? scheme ? or just overall lack of ability ?
It's impossible to know how complex the system is unless you're on the team. Even more difficult to know if an error that occurred is because a player didn't understand what he was supposed to do schematically. Mental errors happen in every game on every defense. It's expected but has to be kept as minimal as possible and should never prevent a player from being able to play at full speed. Regarding Redfield, I think he has poor instincts and the DBs in general have difficulty reading a play and seeing it develop and reactig accordingly.
^ but, it has been put forward that only the presence of Joe S could get the team in correct alignment. How is that to be explained ?
and then there is the obvious confusion on the field, witnessed by fans and analysts.
and then there is the obvious confusion on the field, witnessed by fans and analysts.
I wasn't saying that the scheme is NOT complex. But difficult to know how complex it is and how much it results in poor defensive play. We don't have the playbook nor do we know the plays that are called and the lack of execution that results due to confusion or poor reading/rection or lazy fundamentals. I think we can all agree that there's a lot of room for improvement and I really hope the staff can make the changes necessary. BVG was a top coordinator before, so it's not as if they guy can't coach. Just needs to adjust and reinvent himself.
Defense is about talent, desire, and instinct. We have some talent but not great talent at every position. Van Gorder has been here a few years and I expect the defense to be better next year. We're 10-2 for crying out loud we are acting like we are 2-10. This was a great season and we lost 2 games by a combined total of 4 points quit the belly aching.
Correct. It's easy to focus on the negative than the positive. We forget there were times the defense actually played well this year. Shut down Texas, shut down Georgia tech's option, played very well in 2nd half of Clemson game, shut down USC offense for a little more than a quarter, and they did have a couple of vital 3 and outs against Stanford. It's just frustrating, because the defense can't seem to build off of its success. One step forward and one step back.
His upside is huge and he'll be playing on Sundays.....
The problem as identified by Max is scheme.
An eloquent and confident speaker, Redfield has carried 18-credit academic course loads at Notre Dame per semester, most notably learning Mandarin Chinese. When asked whether VanGorder's defense or Chinese was more difficult, he paused.
"That's a pretty good question," he responded. "I would say consistently being successful in that scheme is harder than learning Chinese." Apply that thought to every guy and know that Redfield had extraordinary HS coaching..
In addition, bvg fuels that "difficulty fire":
“You never know with VanGorder,” defensive end Isaac Rochell said. “… Two years with the same defense we start to understand concepts more, and then we can kind of get a feel for what’s going on and what he might call. But he throws curveballs all the time.”
"Notre Dame’s defense allowed 43 points per game without linebacker Joe Schmidt last November."
That's an indictment of a whole unit, not individuals....
http://www.csnchicago.com/notre-dame/notre-dame-understanding-‘why’-brian-vangorder-year-2
Or......The offensive player that burned or beat the defensive player was just BETTER. Don't forget that the other team and coaches are trying to win too. Our 11 isn't always going to be better than their 11 across the board. LB's, CB's & Safteys get beat all the time by good offensive players.
WE ARE ND
WE ARE ND
You are correct, but really the only folks "belly aching" are a few "jock sniffers" who never had the ability, capacity, wherewithal or courage to put on a pair of shoulder pads. So this has become a way to alleviate their "never was" football inferiority complex issues.
These characters behave similar to a child holding his breath or wetting his bed for attention. My advice would be to place them on ignore and your ND Football Forum experience will improve exponentially. Lot's of great, qualified and smart posters on here to engage with, if you lie down with dogs you will get up with fleas.
something about the Florida water? or is this the same florida football coach wanna be under a new ID?
campaign to attack posters that are not in awe of your status as a "legend in your own mind"?
news flash !
you are equal to other posters! NO BETTER!
do you know how many drives ND's D gave up of 70 yrds or more?
the offense came through to win a few games with clutch comebacks. If not for those heroics then the heat on the defense would be more intense.
The offense got the lead in the SU game. With 30 secs left the D needs to get it in the W col.
A very good season could have been a great season.
(forget the florida coach w/o a team, think for yourself and draw your own conclusion, not florida's nor mine. Just have a point of view your own off information and conclusion.)
I am quite sure Kelly is trying to resolve the D issues. He is not trying to sugar coat it behind closed doors.
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"Defense is about talent, desire, and instinct." Well, I'd give you a major incomplete on that.... Apparently, we don't need coaching, adjustments....
Is it your suggestion that our D in the final series versus Stanford lacked talent, desire, and instinct?
Holy crap, the whole season was on the line and our safeties backed up to FG range as if it was some sort of goal line.
Who's the genius that assigned Okwara # 45 to shadow Hogan on that ill fated play? I am guessing it was bvg with kelly's blessing. What a colossal waste of a defender....
Here's the disaster...ff to 2:32... the whole thing's a clusterf***......
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For the most part, if the players on offense perform their jobs well then an offense should not be stopped.
yup and the converse is if the defense is perfect the offense will fail.
That lil Stanford WR is not fast nor dominant. And he and 2 other recievers were running free because of the defensive alignment. It was shocking how much room they had.
Who told the DB's to play so far off? that is the question.
That lil Stanford WR is not fast nor dominant. And he and 2 other recievers were running free because of the defensive alignment. It was shocking how much room they had.
Who told the DB's to play so far off? that is the question.
Houston, just removing the schematics from discussion it is without a doubt the tackling was lackluster. Matter of fact only Day was good at it.
So removing everything from discussion but the simplest of things demanded of from a defender, tackling, it's pretty safe to say we are very lousy at that.
That is in fact under the watch of one BVG.
It's a bit crazy to try to defend our defensive play under Van Gorder, or to buy into the complicated scheme argument 100%. It simply hasn't been very good, with a few exceptions. It's also a bit crazy to ignore the impact of all the injuries in both of his seasons. Neither explain the poor fundamentals, and that bothers me the most. Our def backfield play stands out for obvious criticism, as well it should, but we can't ignore the fact the defense consists of eleven positions and all eleven positions need to be working well for the whole to run as designed. You can't give opposing QBs all the time in the world as most will eventually find an open receiver, and the fact our Front seven hasn't created enough pressure on the opposing QBs is a significant part of our DB problems. No, this had nothing to do with the last pass play at Stanford, but it had a lot to do with Hogan having a career night. Complicated scheme is clearly part of the problem, but injuries, defensive play calling, lack of a pass rush, and poor fundamentals have all contributed to two years of poor defense performance. We need this fixed, and Kelly knows that better than any of us.
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