Buchner sadly is toast

[NDinNJ]

1

Good points.

People also forget that Kelly brought in Coan and, overall, stuck with him. That partnership produced 11-1.

11-1 with one of the weakest schedules ever. One ranked opponent and they lost that game at home by 2 scores. Sorry that 11-1 was fools gold.

 

[GDFan]

What was Kelly’s W/L record at ND ?

Here comes the Kelly defense council. The topic when Kelly is mentioned is referring to his lack of QB development. It is no secret his QB’s regressed. His record would have been better if he had the ability to develop talent.

 

[Patrirish]

Here comes the Kelly defense council. The topic when Kelly is mentioned is referring to his lack of QB development. It is no secret his QB’s regressed. His record would have been better if he had the ability to develop talent.

Why don’t you look at some of the QB’s in the era of Ara and the Holtz years ?

You might be surprised at what you find.

Kelly’s record is pretty impressive and let’s not forget that it was Kelly that resurrected ND football !

 

[HarlemIrish]

Why don’t you look at some of the QB’s in the era of Ara and the Holtz years ?

You might be surprised at what you find.

Kelly’s record is pretty impressive and let’s not forget that it was Kelly that resurrected ND football !

Lou’s schedules were harder. Maybe that’s why ND is not selling out anymore.

 

[burmafrd1943]

Why don’t you look at some of the QB’s in the era of Ara and the Holtz years ?

You might be surprised at what you find.

Kelly’s record is pretty impressive and let’s not forget that it was Kelly that resurrected ND football !

The goal of every ND football coach is win a NC. Kelly failed. Get used to it.

 

[burmafrd1943]

Lou’s schedules were harder. Maybe that’s why ND is not selling out anymore.

Lou Holtz had some of the toughest schedules around compared to Kelly and ND was in worse shape when he took over than when Kelly took over.

 

[GDFan]

Why don’t you look at some of the QB’s in the era of Ara and the Holtz years ?

You might be surprised at what you find.

Kelly’s record is pretty impressive and let’s not forget that it was Kelly that resurrected ND football !

You know what I found in those years….a national Chanpionship

 

[BGI User 756]

You know what I found in those years….a national Chanpionship

Boom

 

[Patrirish]

Lou’s schedules were harder. Maybe that’s why ND is not selling out anymore.

Kelly didn’t set the schedule, he inherited the schedules that were set long before he set foot on the campus.

Stop trying to make excuses, he resurrected a Notre Dame football program that was in shambles.

 

[Patrirish]

You know what I found in those years….a national Chanpionship

You’re deliberately avoiding the issue.
Look at the QB’s under Lou and Ara.
Not so spectacular are they !

 

[Patrirish]

The goal of every ND football coach is win a NC. Kelly failed. Get used to it.

So did just about every other coach during the Kelly years.

How was ND football before Kelly ?

How was ND football under Kelly

Kelly resurrected ND football, so much so that he competed for the National Championship three times in 10 years.

How many other coaches can make that claim during Kelly’s years.

Get over it and give the devil his due !

 

[Patrirish]

Lou Holtz had some of the toughest schedules around compared to Kelly and ND was in worse shape when he took over than when Kelly took over.

You can’t be that dumb, or maybe you are.

Kelly inherited the schedule as did Lou
Kelly could only play the teams on those schedules
And he took a program in shambles and brought it to the National Championship in just three years.

And you’re dead wrong about Lou inheriting a worse program

 

[burmafrd1943]

You can’t be that dumb, or maybe you are.

Kelly inherited the schedule as did Lou
Kelly could only play the teams on those schedules
And he took a program in shambles and brought it to the National Championship in just three years.

And you’re dead wrong about Lou inheriting a worse program

What national championship? and you call ME dumb?

Fact is that Lou took a program in WORSE shape then Kelly did and won a NC in three years against a tougher schedule. THAT IS A FACT moron.

You are so pathetic; claim to be a ND fan and know NOTHING of ND history. When Faust was finally fired, ND was in WORSE SHAPE then when Kelly took over. Your slobbering over Kelly is such BS.

 

[melstew]

You can’t be that dumb, or maybe you are.

Kelly inherited the schedule as did Lou
Kelly could only play the teams on those schedules
And he took a program in shambles and brought it to the National Championship in just three years.

And you’re dead wrong about Lou inheriting a worse program

Agree Kelly did good things, but here is a Lou fact: 16-7-1 (68.8%) against Top 10 teams. He coached in three 1 versus 2 games and won them all. Kelly really good coach who probably would have done a solid job carrying Lou's bags.

 

[Bob Rodes]

What was he thinking? Where does he go from here? Does he have his ND degree?

Such a good kid but from all accounts not a natural leader and it’s baffling how his passing has gone from very good in high school to Brandon wimbush throws into the ground. Rees n Kelly must have that developmental touch of gold

Nick Saban reveals who has emerged as second-team QB

.

www.on3.com

Wimbush's passing was very good in high school too. Go figure.

 

[theskibro]

You’re deliberately avoiding the issue.
Look at the QB’s under Lou and Ara.
Not so spectacular are they !

 

[Bob Rodes]

Why don’t you look at some of the QB’s in the era of Ara and the Holtz years ?

You might be surprised at what you find.

Kelly’s record is pretty impressive and let’s not forget that it was Kelly that resurrected ND football !

Maybe so, but he was never going to win us a natty.

 

[theskibro]

Er, yes they were. Some like mirer n Powlus were parade all Americans. Quarterback play and the QB on these teams were very good. The team itself sometimes was not the best as in Lou’s first 2 years. And last 2 years due to losing vinnie Ceratto. n having Dick Wadsworth as AD

Tony Rice is widely recognized as an outstanding qb despite critics who took shots at his passing ability. It was actually very good Not nfl good. But good.

Lou - Beurlein. Rice. Mirer. Powlus. McDougal

Ara - Huarte, Hanratty Theisman. Clements Montana.

 

[Telx1]

Full disclosure, I was totally pumped when Kelly recruited the likes of Golson and Wimbush and Zair and Buchner and Crist. Sorry for the misspelling. Incredible run of missed expectations. And then we end up with Rees and Book setting ND qb records. Bad fit, or poor development, or poor job of tweaking the offense to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses, or a bit of everything.

 

[theskibro]

Full disclosure, I was totally pumped when Kelly recruited the likes of Golson and Wimbush and Zair and Buchner and Crist. Sorry for the misspelling. Incredible run of missed expectations. And then we end up with Rees and Book setting ND qb records. Bad fit, or poor development, or poor job of tweaking the offense to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses, or a bit of everything.

TelX
You are not the only one who was bamboozled. I was pumped for the same guys. Crist I think never had “it”. Was highly rated but it was fools gold. Golson was a talent that was mishandled. Part of it was his own by missing a year. But the staff messed with his head. He was pure ball speed n talent and they screwed da pooch
Zaire was tough luck and probably was a middle of the road qb talent anyway.
Buchner has me baffled. The only thing I know for certain when it comes to Buchner, Pyne, and Book is none of them could see the field and do progressions. Terrible
Kizer started strong and Rees n Kelly screed da pooch Ala Golson. Man they are lousy coaches
Wimbush, kizer, Golson and Buchner all belong to the “Rees Kelly qb regression club”
Crist never had it. Book played beyond his ability.

 

[Airzee23]

Why would they offer him ?

They have his tape. San Diego State is a pretty good program.

IMO the previous poster pushing UC Davis was on target.

San Diego State is horrible. They’ve lacked quality offense for years.

 

[GDFan]

You’re deliberately avoiding the issue.
Look at the QB’s under Lou and Ara.
Not so spectacular are they !

Actually you started avoiding the question first. Please give me a quick opinion on Kelly’s QB development at ND. Would love to know how you are going to defend him on that one.

 

[banmate6]

Full disclosure, I was totally pumped when Kelly recruited the likes of Golson and Wimbush and Zair and Buchner and Crist. Sorry for the misspelling. Incredible run of missed expectations. And then we end up with Rees and Book setting ND qb records. Bad fit, or poor development, or poor job of tweaking the offense to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses, or a bit of everything.

Good post, as it summarizes that CBK could not produce a good QB. It was all of the above.

But I still think none of these QBs were top level, never mind not getting optimal development and game plan.

CBK = great program manager, decent but not elite coach. Could not recruit optimally for reasons outside his control...but still could have done a better job.

 

[buckey]

Go back and get your degree. You don’t have it

 

[ftnfan62]

Good points.

People also forget that Kelly brought in Coan and, overall, stuck with him. That partnership produced 11-1.

Anyone could have gone 11-1 against that schedule. The toughest game they had was Cinci and they lost it. A few games, Buch of all people actually pulled those games out. Glad we had Coan, he was better than what was in the room but I dont think there are many accolades for that year. I think Buch helped in Toledo and VT.....Pyne against Wisky.....

 

[NDinNJ]

BK was a very good coach and deserves credit for restoring the program to top 10ish. As for QB development, I believe BK was too rigid, he didn't tweak the offense for the talent, instead he forced the talent to play the offense as it was. That's why you have the Books and Rees' that worked out, and the elite talent that fizzled out. Book and Rees fit the offense better. Great coaches will change/tweak the offense for the player, not the other way around.

 

[4-4-3]

Agree Kelly did good things, but here is a Lou fact: 16-7-1 (68.8%) against Top 10 teams. He coached in three 1 versus 2 games and won them all. Kelly really good coach who probably would have done a solid job carrying Lou's bags.

Or getting to deploy Lou's players.

I mean Vinnie Cerrato's. Lou's players after Vinnie werent' as good.

 

[Patrirish]

What national championship? and you call ME dumb?

Fact is that Lou took a program in WORSE shape then Kelly did and won a NC in three years against a tougher schedule. THAT IS A FACT moron.

You are so pathetic; claim to be a ND fan and know NOTHING of ND history. When Faust was finally fired, ND was in WORSE SHAPE then when Kelly took over. Your slobbering over Kelly is such BS.

Learn how to read and have someone explain what the words “to” and “to the” mean.

The Faust era was a temporary bump in the road following 17 years of great success, Kelly came in after 13 disastrous years. Have some explain the difference to you.

I’ve forgotten more about ND football than you’ll ever know.

I’ve been critical of Kelly since 2012, but you have to give the devil his due, he resurrected ND football and brought it to the highest levels

 

[Patrirish]

Maybe so, but he was never going to win us a natty.

That’s a separate issue and pure conjecture on your part

 

[Patrirish]

Er, yes they were. Some like mirer n Powlus were parade all Americans. Quarterback play and the QB on these teams were very good. The team itself sometimes was not the best as in Lou’s first 2 years. And last 2 years due to losing vinnie Ceratto. n having Dick Wadsworth as AD. But in the last 2 years wouldn’t Lou have had the benefit of developing QB’s from the previous two years

Tony Rice is widely recognized as an outstanding qb despite critics who took shots at his passing ability. It was actually very good Not nfl good. But good.

Lou - Beurlein. Rice. Mirer. Powlus. McDougal

Ara - Huarte, Hanratty Theisman. Clements Montana.

Ara inherited Huarte
How convenient of you to forget about Bonvechio, Zloch, Schoen, O’Brian, Belden, O’Malley, Etter, Gores, Steenberge, Brown, Bulger, Allocco, Slager, Forystek, all QB’s in the era of Ara.

Lou inherited Buerlein
How convenient of you to not list Andrysiak, Belles, Byrne, Kent Graham, Pete Graham, Ebert, Hawkins, Johnson, Faillia, Poorman, Krug, Ornstein, Perona, Jackson, all QB’s under Lou.

My criticism of Kelly was that he liked and recruited QB’s who were runners rather than passers

 

[Patrirish]

Actually you started avoiding the question first. Please give me a quick option on Kelly’s QB development at ND. Would love to know how you are going to defend him on that one.

Deshone Kizer
Didn‘t he start for the Browns in his rookie year in the NFL ?

Isn‘t Ian Book the winningest QB in ND’s history.
Didn’t he play in the NFL ?

 

[Patrirish]

Full disclosure, I was totally pumped when Kelly recruited the likes of Golson and Wimbush and Zair and Buchner and Crist. Sorry for the misspelling. Incredible run of missed expectations. And then we end up with Rees and Book setting ND qb records. Bad fit, or poor development, or poor job of tweaking the offense to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses, or a bit of everything.

I always felt that Kelly was inflexible and that he wanted RPO QB’s versus pure passing QB’s.

So were the failures system failures or rather failures to fit a square peg in a round hole ?

 

[Patrirish]

Good post, as it summarizes that CBK could not produce a good QB. It was all of the above.

But I still think none of these QBs were top level, never mind not getting optimal development and game plan.

CBK = great program manager, decent but not elite coach. Could not recruit optimally for reasons outside his control...but still could have done a better job.

Didn’t Kizer and Book play in the NFL ?

 

[4-4-3]

You can’t be that dumb, or maybe you are.

Kelly inherited the schedule as did Lou
Kelly could only play the teams on those schedules
And he took a program in shambles and brought it to the National Championship in just three years.

And you’re dead wrong about Lou inheriting a worse program

As to the state of the two programs, Faust's teams were definitely stronger than Weis's.

Faust had THREE NUMBER ONE CLASSES during his tenure, not that Holtz inherited all of those players. But he did inherit guys like Tim Brown, Mark Green, Frank Stams, Andy Heck, Jeff Kunz and others, all of whom except Brown played on the 88 NC team.

Kelly will never be forgiven for a) his PERSONALITY and b) not winning an NC. He also didn't drool over being at ND. He's the kind of HARD-ASS many don't like. I warmed to him over time as he finally produced during the regular season at an Ara or Holtz-like rate.

But given that ND refuses to allow itself to play on a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, the odds of it winning an NC remain low while winning them regularly -- as in the past -- looks like a statistical NON-STARTER. So, I don't blame Kelly FOR -- or as many do here -- accuse him OF ND's not being able to secure one. As though he let someone's promised ice cream cone melt.

Nonetheless, he DID GET CLOSE to winning one, falling to a much more talented Alabama team in 2012.

I think for many it's a lot easier to find someone to BLAME for ND's LACK OF DOMINATION rather than ACKNOWLEDGE its own self-imposed restrictions. I'm obviously speculating, but I don't think Saban would have won an NC at ND either given the level of competiton out there over the last 10 to 15 years.

I've been watching football for almost 70 years -- and I also played. That experience tells me that if you don't have enough ELITE PLAYERS, it doesn't matter if GOD ALMIGHTY is coaching. You WON'T oftn beat more talented teams.

To me, the obvious implication in all of this Kelly bashing is that Freeman will SURELY OUTPERFORM HIM. I'm waiting to see what the narrative becomes should Freeman NOT outperform him. Will Freeman become the next BETE NOIRE? Or will his almost DEFINING LIKEABILITY provide cover for RATIONALIZATION.

Either way, what a CRUEL IRONY that would be.

 

[Golson5]

Didn’t Kizer and Book play in the NFL ?

2 guys in 12 years. And neither played well at all. And soon both will be out of the league

Also, 0 first rounders

Not as impressive as you think it is

 

[4-4-3]

Anyone could have gone 11-1 against that schedule. The toughest game they had was Cinci and they lost it. A few games, Buch of all people actually pulled those games out. Glad we had Coan, he was better than what was in the room but I dont think there are many accolades for that year. I think Buch helped in Toledo and VT.....Pyne against Wisky.....

Yes, you can QUALIFY a season's result in a variety of ways, but the numbers are still the numbers, and Coan put up the majority of them while leading three major comebacks himself. And it was HIS TEAM just as 2012's was Golson's despite timely support from Tommy Rees.

But my main point -- which I should have made more clearly -- was that whereas Freeman got Hartman, Kelly got Coan. And in both cases, it was obviously the ONLY SMART PLAY and recognized as such by both coaches. Not to mention that in both cases, the PREDICATE was the same: Buchner and Pyne had issues.

 

[Patrirish]

As to the state of the two programs, Faust's teams were definitely stronger than Weis's.

Faust had THREE NUMBER ONE CLASSES during his tenure, not that Holtz inherited all of those players. But he did inherit guys like Tim Brown, Mark Green, Frank Stams, Andy Heck, Jeff Kunz and others, all of whom except Brown played on the 88 NC team.

Kelly will never be forgiven for a) his PERSONALITY and b) not winning an NC. He also didn't drool over being at ND. He's the kind of HARD-ASS many don't like. I warmed to him over time as he finally produced during the regular season at an Ara or Holtz-like rate.

But given that ND refuses to allow itself to play on a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, the odds of it winning an NC remain low while winning them regularly -- as in the past -- looks like a statistical NON-STARTER. So, I don't blame Kelly FOR -- or as many do here -- accuse him OF ND's not being able to secure one. As though he let someone's promised ice cream cone melt.

Nonetheless, he DID GET CLOSE to winning one, falling to a much more talented Alabama team in 2012.

I think for many it's a lot easier to find someone to BLAME for ND's LACK OF DOMINATION rather than ACKNOWLEDGE its own self-imposed restrictions. I'm obviously speculating, but I don't think Saban would have won an NC at ND either given the level of competiton out there over the last 10 to 15 years.

I've been watching football for almost 70 years -- and I also played. That experience tells me that if you don't have enough ELITE PLAYERS, it doesn't matter if GOD ALMIGHTY is coaching. You WON'T oftn beat more talented teams.

To me, the obvious implication in all of this Kelly bashing is that Freeman will SURELY OUTPERFORM HIM. I'm waiting to see what the narrative becomes should Freeman NOT outperform him. Will Freeman become the next BETE NOIRE? Or will his almost DEFINING LIKEABILITY provide cover for RATIONALIZATION.

Either way, what a CRUEL IRONY that would be.

👍

 

[Patrirish]

2 guys in 12 years. And neither played well at all. And soon both will be out of the league

Also, 0 first rounders

Not as impressive as you think it is

When you start for an NFL team in your rookie year you ARE one hell of a QB !

When you’re the winningest QB in ND history, you are one hell of a QB !

 

[Patrirish]

Pyne starting for ASU vs USC tomorrow.

 

[Bob Rodes]

That’s a separate issue and pure conjecture on your part

Of course it is.