Angelli Should be the starter.
- Thread starter TalentedMrRippley
- Start date
Yes, he needs to feel the rush and go thru his reads better but, game experience will hopefully take care of that...cause' he can spin it better than RL in his sleep!
There were a lot of schools that were using 2 QB systems in the past. I've thought about ND using RL and Angeli. The idea can be appealing, but the problem is it can interrupt the timing, system, play calling, and rhythm when you do that.
Best example is when Georgia had David Greene and Dj Shockley (i think). It was a game where Greene was in a good groove and they had a good lead. Shockley came in and threw a pick 6. Now they were in trouble and Greene coming back in, just couldn't pick the offense back up again and they lost the game. If you use 2 QBs you have to play both early, so one of them doesn't get "cold" on the sideline. However, playing both when one is doing really well is a terrible idea. It's very tough to balance and knowing when to play who and for how long.
Oh and that was Georgia's only loss that year and it cost them a chance at the championship. As you can imagine fans were very bitter with Mark Richt for subbing in Shockley.
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Leonard can throw the swing pass and the screen pass quite well, but he doesn't have the downfield throw that is needed for a D1 offense. Beyond 10 yards he just doesn't have the necessary skills. Maybe he would be a decent receiver? He can run the ball.
I just realized what FOR ME is the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM in all of this.
When you have a QB whose main ability is OVERWHELMINGLY to run, are you not in fact running a kind of GIMMICK OFFENSE?
Riley is almost a FREAKISHLY effective runner once he gets out in space. He's elusive, deceptively fast and so strong he's hard to tackle. But should your QB have all of his eggs in that basket, especially when guys like Riley (or Daniel Jones of the Giants, Riley's prototype predecessor at Duke) are BOUND TO GET HURT, given both THEIR LENGTH and the amount of POTENTIAL PUNISHMENT they're looking at?
What you want in a QB is balance and certainly the ability to MAKE ALL OF THE THROWS.
My concern is that Riley is one headhunting 4.5/40 LB away from serious injury via a BLINDSIDED HIT.
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THAT'S HIM.
I answered this already but appear to have attached my answer to the wrong post.
I did and I know others did as well and some on the board called us names over it when we said we didn’t want Leonard. He (Angelli) played terrific in the bowl game. He has decent athleticism, throws a nice ball, seems to make good decisions throwing the ball. If he had one thing to improve, it’d be some of the sacks he’s taken. I think he waits to long, sometimes it’s just not there, throw it away.
443 I agree with your assessment. It’s always a risk that your running QB will get hurt. I’m sure teams will sell out to stop the run. I think the coaches have to come up with a way to pass enough to keep running lanes open. Otherwise they won’t fare well against better teams. Playing to your strength is fine. I’m good with being a running team. But you will need to throw to keep defenses honest. If they can do that, they have a chance. I will be curious to see how opposing teams defend ND and how ND responds.
As much as I like Angeli, you have to bear in mind that he went up against a defense that was gassed. It was 88 degrees at kickoff and over and over Purdue went three and out.
It's easier to complete those passes at that point in time.
The excuses in support of Leonard are incredible. Angeli came in after halftime. The Purdue D had 15 minutes in the locker room. It wasn't the 4th Quarter.
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I don’t think this debate about Leonard vs Angeli is all that clear cut. Angeli is the better passer, and he can run decently, but he is absolutely sack prone. Leonard is the better runner, in fact elite for a QB, but his passing is average at best, and he vacates the pocket way too early. Frankly, I don’t think either has the combination of skills needed to win a NC. Carr might, except for lack of experience. Hell, Minchey might, but we have damn near zero chance to see him play. We have the best QB room than we’ve had in years, just not sold that we have a current season NC caliber starter among them.
Play RL and let him run non-stop. Between RL, Love, and Price- give them 50+ carries.
When Leonard gets hurt (running QBs always do), bring in Angeli and be comfortable knowing we've got a guy who's an outstanding passer and someone who can lead/run the offense.
At this point, it's about figuring out how to win the next 9. Gotta find the pathway there. It exists.
When Leonard gets hurt (running QBs always do), bring in Angeli and be comfortable knowing we've got a guy who's an outstanding passer and someone who can lead/run the offense.
At this point, it's about figuring out how to win the next 9. Gotta find the pathway there. It exists.
I partially disagree. Angelli can throw a nice ball, but he has a very slight stature. I don't think he would hold up to a. real pounding. I think he is slow. Yes, he can run in the open, but if he was in the open at the 50 yard line he would never make it to the end zone without being taken down from behind. I just don't think he is a very strong kid. I liked better the two guys that came in after him. They looked very athletic. That's it. Angellli is not very athletic. Just my take.
To do what you suggest MAKES SENSE, but it will require a lot of CAREFUL GAME PLANNING each week as, obviously, not all teams will respond the same.
Question is, CAN Riley pass effectively enough to keep running lanes open? Or will he run what one guy online referred to what amounts to a WILDCAT offense, supplemented with short out-patterns and handoffs to Love and Price? Which is pretty much what ND showed against Purdue when Riley was in there.
And not only Purdue. That first drive against NIU now looks like ND's basic bread-and-butter M.O, namely KEEP RUNNING RILEY.
I'm wondering, in fact, if it's simply the plan to keep RILEY running until he CAN'T -- either due to teams stopping him or him getting injured, the chances of which would have to be about 50/50.
Connecting the dots then -- that Angeli played the entire second half would suggest to me that ND's staff realizes that either of those things -- Riley being stopped or getting hurt -- could happen, and so THEY MUST HAVE ANGELI ready to step in with PLAN B at any time.
In effect, they need to prepare TWO OFFENSES each week, just in case.
I realize that Tony Rice and Mirer ran a lot. But in Rice's case, he was more compact and, while not really shifty, never seemed to take a DIRECT HIT. Plus, he shared carries with some really productive backs, so he wasn't at risk as much or as often. Same was true with Mirer and to an even greater degree.
But with Riley, it reminds me of when I was a kid playing pickup games where the biggest, fastest kid played QB, took the snap, rolled out with no intention of throwing and just outran everyone to the goal line.
I'm also reminded of videos I've watched of Frank Gifford running the single wing at USC in the early 50's, something I actually wouldn't mind seeing -- AND I'M SERIOUS -- if Riley is going to be principally a RUNNING QB.
What you've described may be exactly what they're planning, and even if it's not, it's what may actually occur.
I've played on teams where backs were essentially run into the ground for all that they were worth -- not out of MALICE but in the interest of WINNING GAMES.
It happens.
Carr not going anywhere. Loves nd and will be our qb next year
No one has any definitive knowledge who the starting QB will be in 2025.
Not me. Not you. No one.
Yup. One hit away from Angeli being the starter. I find it hard to believe RL is that bad at passing. Something just doesn’t seem right. One thing I see is when he goes to pass , he doesn’t look comfortable in the pocket. Not sure why. QB’s like to get into a groove. He hasn’t found that yet. I just think something is wrong physically that they aren’t saying. I don’t know
As far as Tony Rice goes. That was a running offense. But Rice was effective at passing when he was throwing. He had some pretty good receivers too. I remember the Michigan game in 89 when the Rocket ran those 2 kicks back. Rice threw 2 passes the entire game. Different offense back then. But it worked. You need to throw today. No two ways about it. I want to see how things progress over the next 2 games. Hopefully they win too. The way this is going, it will probably go overtime next week. lol 😂. Can you imagine?
Rice was effectoveenough passing at times, but career-wise, he had more interceptions than TDs and was barely above 50% completion average.
I don’t disagree. My point was that offense was based around the option and having a running QB. Rice did just enough to keep defenses at least thinking pass if they sold out to stop the run.
Yes, Leonard looked like a better passer at Duke. At times, MUCH BETTER.
As for the season, it shows every sign of being one where anything can happen. But then, it could just as easily settle into a LOGICAL PATTERN.
Either way, I find it hard to believe that ND will achieve opitimum success without a greater degree of OFFENSIVE BALANCE.
Rice passed well in two games that really counted: Miami and West Virginia. The first was against the then #1 ranked team; the second, secured the NC.
I thought Leonard could throw the ball at Duke but man he is awful throwing anything more then 20 yards. We tried this once with Brandon Wimbush and once you play a team with athletes your done. I would start Angeli and sprinkle in Leonard like we did with Buckner. We have to get the wide receivers going or kids are going to leave and recruits watching won't come.
You do realize that a decision like that is made with total input from both the OC ( who has years of experience) and a highly regarded position coach. Yes Freeman is the head man but he's a defensive guy and would never make a change with Denbrock endorsing it.
Agreed Angeli is the better passer. That said way more to playing the position than just that.
You do realize Freeman brought Leonard on BEFORE Denbrock was hired. You also do realize there was no real QB competition this year or last. Both Hartman and Leonard were handed the starting QB position.
"We tried this once with Brandon Wimbush and once you play a team with athletes your done."
TRUE. EVEN NIU PROVED THAT.
"We have to get the wide receivers going or kids are going to leave and recruits watching won't come."
A LEGITIMATE CONCERN. I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT BEAUX COLLINS IS TOO HAPPY, RIGHT NOW.
I know, he looks pretty slight of build out there. I don't quite understand, QBs usually bulk up a fair bit in college, and put some meat on their bones, presumably so they can take the pounding. And he still looks like a HS kid. I would say he's definitely a better passer than RL, but RL reclaimed the job successfully with this performance. How could anyone deny him that? 100 yard rushing in the first half. And serviceable enough passing.
Honestly I don't know what to think about anything. I was freaking out after NIU, and while we can't undo that damage and it will and has hurt us, we turn around and destroy Purdue with almost effortless domination and one of the largest blowout margins in program history. So where does that leave us? Feels like we're right back on the playoff track only difference we already have a loss, and now we can't lose anymore games. Making the this year's showdown with USC a season-defining matchup if we can run the table, and the rest of the schedule is so incredibly easy, and seemingly getting easier each week. On paper Louisville being the only likely heads-up challenge.
At least Angeli got to play quite a bit and acquitted himself rather well.
If you think Freeman makes the decisions without input from his coordinators so be it. I'm not aware of any program that operates that way.
Michigan showed last year that you can win running the ball, playing great defense, with a mobile QB that can effectively hit the twenty yard slant or out. We’re close to this profile, and Leonard’s passing is the major question mark. I fully expected him to be a good twenty yard passer, with the occasional misfire; and I expected him to burn cheating defenses with three or four downfield passes per game. We haven’t seen this from him yet, but I’m still hopeful.
Let me ask you, do you believe there was a legitimate QB competition leading up to the season? I don't. The staff got their NIL QB and they told MD this the guy.
Bad comparison. JJ McCarthy threw for 2990 yards, had 22 TD's to 4 INT's. He had 64 rushing attempts for 202 yards, 3.2 ypc and 3 TD's
He averaged 22 pass attempts per game and just 4 rushing attempts per game.
Michigan had more of a balanced attack and McCarthy wasn't as mobile as you believe him to be.
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