Officially Official ND vs. Cuse thread

[bizzybecknd]

when i call NDs prospects "mediocre" i don't mean mediocre on the scale of all 130+ FBS programs .. i mean mediocre relative to the top 25 or so programs/the ones that really matter

and i use that word in the literal sense (not derogatory) as in not bad, but not great.

When you say mediocre, I'm assuming you're basing that on the rating rivals assigned to The likes of Love, Gilman, Tranquil? Also the low 4 stars of Okwara, coney, Elliott, pride?

Nobody denies recruiting matters but you're providing a blanket statement across all recruits based on the recruiting rankings services rather than BKs and his staffs evaluation. Which has proven and I mean proven to be effective. For this D to be over performing is an opinion based on what rivals told you

 

[bizzybecknd]

No, I don't think there is much difference between Clemson and a Notre Dame team that plays to their potential on both sides of the ball. That's why I'm critiquing the ND offense. The offense that showed up tonight is not beating Clemson. If the ND offense improves on tonight, doesn't settle and finishes those plays off, ND could play for a national title.

Ya they beat Clemson tonight.. even when they didn't score, they were flipping the field and breaking the will of the D. Sorry but I disagree- points don't equal offensive execution. Great teams run the ball at will in hopes of wearing down the D, without much to show on the scoreboard.

 

[PHJIndy]

The Irish racked up 487 yards of total offense today.

 

[bizzybecknd]

i don't think the difference is that small.

If ND loses someone like Jerry Tillery, or one of their two LBs, or if they lose Julian Love there's a MASSIVE drop off.

Alabama (and several other teams that recruit 2 deep the way they do) can lose some superstars and have drop off but the next guy will still be one of the most gifted athletes on the field and the defense will still perform for the most part to expectations.

ND has had a ton of injury luck on the defensive side of the ball all season which plays into their top 5 ranking on defense.

* when i site rankings im using F/P+ which quantifies defensive production at the per play level, and adjusts for quality of opponent.

What several other teams? The Clemson team that snuck by Syracuse after digging into their depth chart? That FSU/OSU team you preach about recruiting rankings? What other teams lose an all American corner or D lineman and don't suffer a drop off besides Bama? This is Ludacris

 

[stu4don]

Clemson has its hands full with freaking Duke!

 

[Kontiki09]

Point totals = Execution. ND was average today on offense, scoring below their average point totals since Book took over. It's fine. They still won. The sky is not falling. But it was substandard (their standard, not mine). Alabama 50+ today, Ohio State 50+ today, Georgia 50+ today, Clemson plays tonight... ND played the best opponent of those teams but could have also scored 50 had they executed better.

I just want better execution because it's going to matter 2 games from now. It's simple criticism, I'm not suggesting that the sky is falling.

You do realize that Clemson BARELY squeaked by Syracuse, right? And Ohio State lost to Purdue? And Georgia got clobbered by LSU? And that Bama played CITADEL? And that ND is undefeated? And that we are ranked third? And that we just beat the ever living sh*t out of the 12th ranked team in the country? And that we scored 36? And that we held a team that averaged 40 points to only 3? And that Clemson couldnt even do that?

I swear I feel like I’m taking crazy pills when I read some of the posts on this board. Is this real life?

 

[impossibilityofreason1]

“I will tell you this, though, those -- that Notre Dame is better than what people think they are." If they play the way they played us," Babers said of the Irish, "they will probably have an opportunity to play for a national championship." Both of these were post game quotes by Babers. Sounds like we got some respect tonight.

 

[BGI User 1596]

“I will tell you this, though, those -- that Notre Dame is better than what people think they are." If they play the way they played us," Babers said of the Irish, "they will probably have an opportunity to play for a national championship." Both of these were post game quotes by Babers. Sounds like we got some respect tonight.

Dino Babers is a class act.....excellent coach.

 

[francade]

“Clemson is beating teams badly (looking dominant in the process).

Syracuse has had a season with a ton of good luck all season (turnover luck, lots of close wins vs bad teams, etc.)”

Clemson should’ve lost to the team we crushed yesterday. Any claims we couldn’t have beaten them yesterday are pure speculation. They haven’t played an offense as good and balanced as ND’s.

 

[IrishInOntario]

“Clemson is beating teams badly (looking dominant in the process).

Syracuse has had a season with a ton of good luck all season (turnover luck, lots of close wins vs bad teams, etc.)”

Clemson should’ve lost to the team we crushed yesterday. Any claims we couldn’t have beaten them yesterday are pure speculation. They haven’t played an offense as good and balanced as ND’s.

Clemson lost Trevor Lawrence in the 2nd quarter of that game to a concussion, the same week that Kelly Bryant left the team and announced he'd transfer. Clemson was forced to play the majority of that game with Chase Brice, their third string quarterback, who had gotten almost no work behind Bryant and Lawrence. Furthermore, Syracuse didn't lose Eric Dungey on the second possession of the game against Clemson like they did against Notre Dame.

If ND brings their "A game" on both sides of the ball they will be in it until the end against Clemson and could very well beat them... But to extrapolate the Clemson vs Syracuse game onto the ND game would be to intentionally leave out the fact that Lawrence was out and that Dungey was in the entire game. That's an enormous difference.

If Clemson goes out and smashes Pitt in the ACC Championship game, would you not then concur, using the same transitive property, that ND is in trouble against Clemson because Pittsburgh came pretty close to beating Notre Dame?... Of course not. That's ridiculous.

Extrapolation and transitive property rarely works in college football. Every game is a new game and every game is unique in the circumstances that govern its outcome.

The Syracuse vs Clemson and Syracuse vs ND games have nothing in common outside of the fact that Syracuse was one of the two teams on the field.

 

[IrishInOntario]

For additional context on my above post...

This from highly respected, veteran coach David Cutcliffe of Duke after the Duke vs Clemson game yesterday.

"They are a great football team, every position. They are the best team that we've faced since I've been at Duke, from a physical standpoint..." ESPN's Chris Low noted that Cutcliffe included the 2013 national championship Florida State team that he faced in the ACC Championship Game that year.

Let's be excited about ND, without downplaying Clemson because they had a tough game against Syracuse, in Lawrence's first start, a game he was knocked out of in the first quarter, giving way to Chase Brice... The following week, with Lawrence cleared, they beat Wake 63-3, more convincingly (not that it matters) than ND beat Wake Forest. They hung 59 points on Florida State and 77 points on our old friend BVG at Louisville. Both are bad ACC teams, but the point is that Clemson's offense is excellent and they have the #1 scoring defense in the nation, surrendering 12.3 ppg.

 

[tbonesays]

Clemson lost Trevor Lawrence in the 2nd quarter of that game to a concussion, the same week that Kelly Bryant left the team and announced he'd transfer. Clemson was forced to play the majority of that game with Chase Brice, their third string quarterback, who had gotten almost no work behind Bryant and Lawrence. Furthermore, Syracuse didn't lose Eric Dungey on the second possession of the game against Clemson like they did against Notre Dame.

If ND brings their "A game" on both sides of the ball they will be in it until the end against Clemson and could very well beat them... But to extrapolate the Clemson vs Syracuse game onto the ND game would be to intentionally leave out the fact that Lawrence was out and that Dungey was in the entire game. That's an enormous difference.

If Clemson goes out and smashes Pitt in the ACC Championship game, would you not then concur, using the same transitive property, that ND is in trouble against Clemson because Pittsburgh came pretty close to beating Notre Dame?... Of course not. That's ridiculous.

Extrapolation and transitive property rarely works in college football. Every game is a new game and every game is unique in the circumstances that govern its outcome.

The Syracuse vs Clemson and Syracuse vs ND games have nothing in common outside of the fact that Syracuse was one of the two teams on the field.

3
the major dissimilarity was that SYR had them on the ropes and choked.

 

[IrishInOntario]

3
the major dissimilarity was that SYR had them on the ropes and choked.

5-6 Vanderbilt had ND on the ropes and couldn't finish the deal. Georgia crushed Vanderbilt. Am I to believe ND isn't in Georgia's league because ND hung on by the skin of their teeth against Vandy, while Georgia humbled them?

 

[francade]

Hold on now, Ontario, who is downplaying Clemson? There’s only one person downplaying a team here & that’s you w/ ND. Lawrence played virtually the entire first half of that game and did next to nothing so the comment about getting “knocked out in the 1st qtr” is BS. Agreed that Clemson had to play against dungey, which is big, but I was talking more about our offense against their defense since you said our offense wasn’t very good against Syracuse. As for Clemson’s defense, ND’s offense has just as much or more balance than Syracuse and simply is better all around so the only “extrapolation” I’m doing is to try and compare how we would do against Clemson as it relates to how Syracuse did offensively, so give the transitive property angle a rest, I wasn’t saying if we beat them, yada yada yada, I was only disputing your claim that we would’ve had no chance against them the way our offense played against Syracuse. You don’t know that. As for cutcliffe, I love him as a coach, but has his team played ND this year? How does he know how good ND is in comparison to Clemson? And since you brought up ACC coaches talking about the two teams we’re arguing about, what were babers’ thoughts on ND? And lastly, maybe if bryant, the “warrior” in your words, hadn’t quit after 4 games & decided to transfer, clemson wouldn’t have needed their 3rd string qb in the 2nd half of that game.

 

[francade]

“5-6 Vanderbilt had ND on the ropes”

I thought we could throw out any games that our starting qb didn’t play in? Isn’t that what you did w/ Clemson/cuse game? Can’t have it both ways

 

[IrishInOntario]

“5-6 Vanderbilt had ND on the ropes”

I thought we could throw out any games that our starting qb didn’t play in? Isn’t that what you did w/ Clemson/cuse game? Can’t have it both ways

I'm not trying to downplay anything or "have it both ways"... I'm suggesting that Lawrence was in his 1st start against Syracuse, the week that Bryant transferred. He was promptly knocked out of that game and Clemson was forced to play with their 3rd string quarterback the entire 2nd half.

My question about Vanderbilt was clearly rhetorical. It was meant to show that its silly to compare two teams based on how they played against another team, months earlier, especially when some would ignore important factors, such as Lawrence starting his first game (he's a freshman) and playing less than a full half, as well as Wimbush starting for ND in the Vanderbilt game and playing 60 minutes rather than Book... Neither is at all an indication of where either team is now.

This is what I can tell you...

Clemson scoring offense: #5 (44.7 ppg)
Clemson scoring defense: #1 (12.1 ppg)

ND scoring offense: #27 (34.6 ppg)
ND scoring defense: #15 (17.3 ppg)

Obviously those numbers aren't perfect because they take in account the starts by Bryant for Clemson and Wimbush for Notre Dame, and they aren't adjusted for SOS, but they give you a good idea of where the two teams stacks up in their ability to score and stop the opposition from scoring.

My point the entire time has remained the same. ND will need it's A game on both sides of the ball to beat Clemson. I simply think that the offense brought their B game against Syracuse, which would result, IMO, to a hard fought, close loss to Clemson in a playoff game... If ND plays to its potential on both sides of that ball, it ahould be a 4th quarter nailbiter that can go either way, which would make for an awesome game.

 

[Get Nasty]

I'm not trying to downplay anything or "have it both ways"... I'm suggesting that Lawrence was in his 1st start against Syracuse, the week that Bryant transferred. He was promptly knocked out of that game and Clemson was forced to play with their 3rd string quarterback the entire 2nd half.

My question about Vanderbilt was clearly rhetorical. It was meant to show that its silly to compare two teams based on how they played against another team, months earlier, especially when some would ignore important factors, such as Lawrence starting his first game (he's a freshman) and playing less than a full half, as well as Wimbush starting for ND in the Vanderbilt game and playing 60 minutes rather than Book... Neither is at all an indication of where either team is now.

This is what I can tell you...

Clemson scoring offense: #5 (44.7 ppg)
Clemson scoring defense: #1 (12.1 ppg)

ND scoring offense: #27 (34.6 ppg)
ND scoring defense: #15 (17.3 ppg)

Obviously those numbers aren't perfect because they take in account the starts by Bryant for Clemson and Wimbush for Notre Dame, and they aren't adjusted for SOS, but they give you a good idea of where the two teams stacks up in their ability to score and stop the opposition from scoring.

My point the entire time has remained the same. ND will need it's A game on both sides of the ball to beat Clemson. I simply think that the offense brought their B game against Syracuse, which would result, IMO, to a hard fought, close loss to Clemson in a playoff game... If ND plays to its potential on both sides of that ball, it ahould be a 4th quarter nailbiter that can go either way, which would make for an awesome game.

No question that Clemson would be the favorite, but this isn't the 2012 ND team. ND has a roster finally that can compete with anyone in the nation. Not the most talented team, but a lot of ND starters will be drafted.

The one big advantage I see in favor of ND is actually at the QB position. Not from a physical standpoint (lawrence is super talented), but from a mental standpoint. Clemson is all about the run game and huge passing plays, two things ND has defended pretty well. ND's run game stats aren't incredibly good because they have taken away the big play and passing game from teams that want to throw it all over the field (northwestern, Fsu, and syracuse). What's exciting is book can execute down the field or hit a big play (improving here), but he hasn't played two good halves in the same game this year yet. I think it's coming. I think ND would do their best to make Clemson have to execute the full length of the field, rather than hit big plays all over. ND would give up yards, but hopefully more Fgs than Tds.

 

[stu4don]

And Clemson will have to bring its A game against Notre Dame. When you get to championship games there is not much room for error. So, agreed, IIO, our offense will need to cut out those mistakes (Kelly said that in the post-game presser). I watched some of the Clemson game and they too left some points on the table vs. Duke (and Clemson was at home!) in the first half too.

 

[IrishInOntario]

If anyone listens to Power Hour today, there is some good perspective on there relative to how coaches think. The first 5 minutes sums it up well.

 

[NotreDomer1]

If anyone listens to Power Hour today, there is some good perspective on there relative to how coaches think. The first 5 minutes sums it up well.

Got a link? Thanks!

 

[tbonesays]

5-6 Vanderbilt had ND on the ropes and couldn't finish the deal.

Vandy had the lead and the ball against ND in the 4th qtr? Or do we have very dissimilar meanings of "on the ropes"

 

[IrishInOntario]

Vandy had the lead and the ball against ND in the 4th qtr? Or do we have very dissimilar meanings of "on the ropes"

Vandy was driving and Liscomb dropped a pass when Elliot fell on top of him inside the 15 yard line, on 4th down, down 5... That's damn close to me.

 

[francade]

“My point the entire time has remained the same. ND will need it's A game on both sides of the ball to beat Clemson”

And my point is that’s not really saying much, Clemson will need to do the same to beat ND.