Michigan vs Notre Dame
- Thread starter BodiTheGreat
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Yep, 1 team’s season gets a big jump start, the other is playing catch-up all year!
Big game with big pressure.
Back in my early teen years, I attended the initial scrimmage between the two schools in late November of '87 (1887). Later, I went to the 1889 game that was played in late October. Of course, we all remember the 1899 contest that was actually the fifth game of the year and again, in 1900, and that was the eighth game of the year. So, late season scheduling with those rascals from Michigan had precedent.
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Where were your seats, I should have waved, but did not make you out. I was busy with my great grandkids.
Yeah. Like a more traditional version of Florida State vs Miami on the first weekend in the 90's. Opening with a tough game meant your team needed to really be getting its act together during August.
I was the youngun wearing a long fur coat, wearing a straw hat, and waving a Notre Dame felt pennant.
I came of age just as that tradition was interrupted. So I'm somewhat neutral on it. IIRC the loser always had the 'first game' excuse in their pocket although M fans make it for any nth game.
“we was robbed!” is not an excuse! a statement of fact, biased refs!
Miami-FSU was usually mid-season (they may have opened up in ‘88 when Cleveland Gary ran Deion Sanders over) but other than that, until the ‘05-‘06 seasons, the wide rights were usually October. Great series though, one of the better runs for a series in college football in terms of high stakes & great games.
If Holtz was younger and wamted to comeback to Notre Dame and coach I would take him in a heart beat. No Disrespect to BK
I love Holtz, but i think advising would be about it.
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A younger Holtz is available. He seems to be Peter Principled in the USF/LaTech level.
Brian Kelly is one of the top coaches in the nation “without” a championship.
Kelly reinvented himself over the past 2-3 seasons. He swallowed his pride and gave up his offensive play calling so he can have more interaction with his players. He no longer micromanages his coaches. He allows them to coach their players.
Players are having a lot more “fun” coaching at Notre Dame.
How many current college coaches have had 3 undefeated regular seasons?
Lost to championship to Alabama
Lost in playoffs to eventual champion Clemson in playoffs.
There are 20 teams in the top 25 that would trade their coach for Brian Kelly.
We should have used Wimbush in the second half versus Clemson... could not have done worse...
What has Brian Kelly done in a big bowl game over his entire career? Absolutely nada nothing. Embarrassing loss/performance every single time.
How many teams that finished in the top 10 has Notre Dame beat over the past decade under his watch? 1. One game in a decade. I couldn't care less about beating Temple and mediocre Michigan teams at home, beat someone worth a damn from time to time.
Owned by Stanford? David Shaw with less talent has OWNED Brian Kelly to the tune of a 7-3 record. Kelly's also 0fer against Stanford on the road.
FWIW he's 0fer in the Big House too.
Upsets? Most of Kelly's wins are against teams Notre Dame is superior to in terms of talent, he rarely if ever shows up, draws up a gameplan, and surprises you with an upset in a big game. In fact, the only one I can think of that surprised me was the win at Oklahoma 7 years ago.
On the flip side how many times has Notre Dame been upset under Brian Kelly? Countless, hell we're a few years removed from 4-8.
Kelly a top 5 coach in college football? There isn't a chance in hell,
Saban
Dabo
Meyer
Riley
Peterson
are all far better than Kelly
Then you have guys like Miles, Shaw, Whittingham who I would take over Kelly tomorrow and are more accomplished at less less prominent programs.
I'd put Kelly around 10-15
Bottom line; could Notre Dame do worse than Kelly?
Absolutely
Could they do better than Kelly?
Absolutely
Brian Kelly against a tough schedule at a premier program is a 9-3 coach on average. He's good but not elite. Notre Dame needs elite to breakthrough to the next level.
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I used to post the same things you are posting about Kelly.
1. Peterson and Riley have done what better than Kelly?
You wanna mention Shaw at Stanford??? So you want Shaw over Kelly? Is that what you are saying?
3. You mention Meyer in the top 5? Ummm he is retired.
4. You have Kelly at 10-15? So who are your top 15 coaches?
After this past season, I have become a Kelly fan again. Do you realize how difficult it is to go 12-0? Do have a clue what an achievement that is?
I can critique Peterson and Riley the same way you have Critiqued Kelly:
Riley: it’s easy to jump on this bandwagon.
1. HE HAS ONLY COACHED FOR TWO SEASONS!!!
2. He lost both of his bowl games.
3. The B12 really? One of the weakest Conferences in the nation! You play mediocre teams all year.
4. Remind me, What’s his biggest achievement at Oklahoma? Exactly.
Peterson:
I like the guy. Really good coach that knows how to run and build a program. Drop Meyer out of your top 5 and keep Peterson and add Kelly.
But...
Let’s breakdown/Critique Peterson the way you did Kelly.
1. First five years at Washington 47 wins. Kelly first five years at ND 45 wins one 12-0 season. Not much of a difference so far.
2. Funny thing, Peterson is “0fer” at Stanford. Lol
3. What are his biggest wins at Washington?
4. Lost 4 out 5 bowl games at Washington.
Who can ND get that is better than Kelly?
Your craziest quote is this:
“Brian Kelly against a tough schedule at a premier program is a 9-3 coach on average. He's good but not elite. Notre Dame needs elite to breakthrough to the next level“.
Ummm, ND is a premier program that plays one of the toughest schedules in college football. You say ND needs an elite coach? Who is this elite coach that you speak of?
What if ND could get a coach that went 12-0 3 times, played in the college football playoffs and played for a national championship? Would you be interested in him???
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ND .... is premier
Normally plays a very tough schedule.
Both 12-1 seasons under BK have been the schedules have been extremely fortuitous.
Take a peak at both seasons.
USC was off in both seasons.
Stanford was a tough foe in 12 that we had at home. In 18 they were average at best.
FSU in 18 was bad.
Michigan in 18 was extremely one dimensional.
At Norman in 12 against a very average offensive Oklahoma team.
The normal tough schedule we have wasn't in those two years.
Add in no conference title game and yep...we won 12 games.
What happened in the last game of both seasons?
Against our toughest foes of each season.
It wasn't even a contest.
See the comparison of Kelly agd the coaches you mentioned end right there.
He's won absolutely nothing in Division 1 football.
No big bowl game.
No national title.
The worst part is not being competitive in those massive games.
We aren't even close.
and if we lose the games you make excuses for, the opponent is better and we played a tough schedule see?
88 loves to complain. He also loves to talk about how much he knows about everything.... regardless of who is coach at ND or the results he will complain....
"Kelly is fools gold"
This is a good line and sums up my thoughts on Brian Kelly's career at Notre Dame as well.
Notre Dame's been able to put up some good records the last couple of years but its been against mediocre schedules by their standard with typical powers on the schedule being down and Notre Dame still needing last-minute miracles to beat mediocre competition on their schedule.
All of these little factors go into a ranking system like F&P+ where Notre Dame has finished 10th and 7th respectively the last 2 years. And unless Ian book goes absolutely nuclear this season Notre Dame isnt likely to finish any better in 2019.
This isn't to say that it's all ian books fault either. at Notre Dame you should have a healthy enough roster where a top 10 type of quarterback like Ian book should be more than enough for your program to get into the playoff and compete with the big boys for a national title.
This is a good line and sums up my thoughts on Brian Kelly's career at Notre Dame as well.
Notre Dame's been able to put up some good records the last couple of years but its been against mediocre schedules by their standard with typical powers on the schedule being down and Notre Dame still needing last-minute miracles to beat mediocre competition on their schedule.
All of these little factors go into a ranking system like F&P+ where Notre Dame has finished 10th and 7th respectively the last 2 years. And unless Ian book goes absolutely nuclear this season Notre Dame isnt likely to finish any better in 2019.
This isn't to say that it's all ian books fault either. at Notre Dame you should have a healthy enough roster where a top 10 type of quarterback like Ian book should be more than enough for your program to get into the playoff and compete with the big boys for a national title.
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Also finishing top 10 the last two years in F&P+ is solid performance at Notre Dame the problem is that has been Brian Kelly's ceiling his entire career at Notre Dame and there is very little/no evidence to support the idea that he's anywhere closer to breaking into the top five today than he was 9 years ago when he started here. so how many more good but not good enough seasons are we going to accept?
Unlike 88ND I respect Kelly as a football coach and a leader of the organization and I think he's done a great job developing the talent here but throughout his entire tenure here he just hasn't been able to sign enough talent and high enough end talent.
If he were to go to USC or Florida or some other popular program in the South that can recruit itself I have no doubt that he would compete for national titles and far exceed his upside here at Notre Dame. But that is just my opinion.
Unlike 88ND I respect Kelly as a football coach and a leader of the organization and I think he's done a great job developing the talent here but throughout his entire tenure here he just hasn't been able to sign enough talent and high enough end talent.
If he were to go to USC or Florida or some other popular program in the South that can recruit itself I have no doubt that he would compete for national titles and far exceed his upside here at Notre Dame. But that is just my opinion.
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Here are a few comments on college coaching. Mostly retreads, but worthwhile I suppose to be pedantic. Coaches have two jobs on the football side. They recruit and then they try to win as many games with the talent acquired. Some places its easier to recruit then others. Nick Saban stays at MSU he never sniffs a National Championship. His success would probably be inferior to Dantonio because Saban could never make the commitment to a lower ceiling.
So here is the problem if you hate BK. If you are not consistently recruiting top 5 classes year after year, the odds of a NC go way down. Unless you stumble into a Cam Newton/Vince Young type its hard to make up the fact your playing chess against someone who 4 bishops, 3 knights, and 5 rooks. That is why Wimbush was given every opportunity to succeed.
This leads to the 2nd problem which is recruiting is a dirty business. How dirty do you want your program to be to win? We know the answer of an evangelical in politics. In football speak if you had an SEC coach and told him to do what was necessary to get the players needed are you willing to win at all costs? Are you willing to be the football machine that everyone hates because your willing to do anything to get the best DT in the nation to come to your school, much less the top 4?
So the next question comes down to can you play to your talent. If you have top10 recruits are you winning enough games. There are very few coaches who are winning beyond their recruiting profile and a threat for NC. You can do a scheme like MSU/Wisc where November weather favors running and great run defense. Stinks come playing Alabama in a dome with 50 days to prep.
My take is Brian Kelly is holding serve. The best ND can do is get to the playoffs and they have done that twice in a decade. Neither of those ND teams that made it were going to do anything even if you had Belichick on the staff for the year. Bama and Clemson did not have more rooks. They had more queens on the board. Even if Tom Brady was the QB and you had the entire NE staff, Clemson was going to win.
So unless you are willing to sell soul and give up everything you believe in, your not going to get any better then what BK has been doing which is competing to make the playoffs and generally winning 9-10 games. If you want more, you have to do the Mike Pence thing. You have to give up everything you believe in. If winning is that important, then yes change the culture and the glory will come. ND is never going to have the players of a Bama unless there is a culture that is willing to do what is necessary.
Me personally? I enjoy football for the competition. The teams I follow I just hope they play to their capability and that is all I can ask. If my team has no chance on paper that is fine because if it does happen it will be that much sweeter.
So here is the problem if you hate BK. If you are not consistently recruiting top 5 classes year after year, the odds of a NC go way down. Unless you stumble into a Cam Newton/Vince Young type its hard to make up the fact your playing chess against someone who 4 bishops, 3 knights, and 5 rooks. That is why Wimbush was given every opportunity to succeed.
This leads to the 2nd problem which is recruiting is a dirty business. How dirty do you want your program to be to win? We know the answer of an evangelical in politics. In football speak if you had an SEC coach and told him to do what was necessary to get the players needed are you willing to win at all costs? Are you willing to be the football machine that everyone hates because your willing to do anything to get the best DT in the nation to come to your school, much less the top 4?
So the next question comes down to can you play to your talent. If you have top10 recruits are you winning enough games. There are very few coaches who are winning beyond their recruiting profile and a threat for NC. You can do a scheme like MSU/Wisc where November weather favors running and great run defense. Stinks come playing Alabama in a dome with 50 days to prep.
My take is Brian Kelly is holding serve. The best ND can do is get to the playoffs and they have done that twice in a decade. Neither of those ND teams that made it were going to do anything even if you had Belichick on the staff for the year. Bama and Clemson did not have more rooks. They had more queens on the board. Even if Tom Brady was the QB and you had the entire NE staff, Clemson was going to win.
So unless you are willing to sell soul and give up everything you believe in, your not going to get any better then what BK has been doing which is competing to make the playoffs and generally winning 9-10 games. If you want more, you have to do the Mike Pence thing. You have to give up everything you believe in. If winning is that important, then yes change the culture and the glory will come. ND is never going to have the players of a Bama unless there is a culture that is willing to do what is necessary.
Me personally? I enjoy football for the competition. The teams I follow I just hope they play to their capability and that is all I can ask. If my team has no chance on paper that is fine because if it does happen it will be that much sweeter.
Charlie Weis was pulling in top five classes between the years of 2006 and 2008 while Notre Dame was winning the graduation rate national title as well. He
couldn't coach but he sure was able to work hard and get the talent. Notre Dame dominated recruiting throughout much of the late eighties and nineties while meeting their academic obligations and standards as well.
In my opinion throwing your hands up in the air and saying only cheaters get the players is more or less just more excuses from the have nots in college football.
Weis highly ranked classes were a fraud.
Showed the folly of recruiting off rankings than off tape.
In fairness to him ND was way behind the curve in terms of infrastructure needed for a football program to achieve at a high level given what our opponents had but that has changed.
thrice. He fooled the world into an undefeated regular season 3 times with 3 different rosters.
By all means make sure you stress...
REGULAR SEASON
Notre Dame has participated in the post season for a very long time.
I'm a realist and a season is a season is a season.
In other words the games played in the bowl games are a finale of the damn season.
If one has to stress "regular season" that's only because they're hiding something. Finding a morsel to make a feel good statement if you will.
His 12-0 Cinci team played Florida in a big bowl. A Florida team that wasn't undefeated to that point.
Result? Blowout loss. Tebow ....
yep Tim Tebow...throws for record setting numbers.
First 12-0 ND team goes against a 1 loss Bama team in the title game.
Result? Bloodbath
Second 12-0 ND team actually faced a 13-0 team in Clemson.
Result? Dominated
Until ND stops participating in bowl games and or the playoff a season in it's entirety is the season.
In other words Brian Kelly has NEVER gone undefeated.
Pretty much a joke when you list Riley based on a couple of years with inherited talent.
Can you tell me why I'm wrong? He's accomplished as much or more in 2 years than BK has his entire tenure. The talent isn't going anywhere, Oklahoma is recruiting at a higher level with him than they ever did under Stoops.
He's young, has an exciting offense, and is proving to be very good with QBs. Going forward I would take him over Brian Kelly, absolutely.
He's been a head coach for a whole 2 years. You're right though he should've won one by now.
Good argument. Nevermind the coach that your defending hasn't won sh*t in 15 years. Again good argument.
3 out of his 9 years at Notre Dame Brian Kelly made it to a major bowl game, (programs like Notre Dame should be in a major bowl game almost every year)the times he made it he got deep dicked on national tv.
If that's elite to you then fine by you, but it sure as hell isn't elite to me. Elite coaches at programs like Notre Dame get to and win big games against elite teams. Brian Kelly hasn't even been close in a decade.
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