Where are the 'W's' coming next year???
- Thread starter Zorich 88
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Bad coaches dont get better the next season. 3-9 this year will be 3-9 next year and Jack and Kelly will be fired a year late. No decent DC will come to ND for a one and done season.
Coaches lose control and get figured out by other coaches if they cant adapt. Look what happened to Weis after two BCS appearances and a contract extension.
on the other hand......how did we go 10-3 last season....and 2-5 this season? Please answer.
because last year our irish had key veteran starters returning like Stanley, fuller, day and smith. next year's team will have key starters returning with a good year or more of experience of playing and starting several games under there belts like nelson, bars, mcglinchy, st.brown, adams, love, coney amongst many others. remember harpo that this team hasn't been blown out by anybody and could easily be undefeated. a veteran team we'll have next that'll learn from this year's mistakes
cool9
you follow recruiting and you know the longer this recruiting defense failure continues the worse it is going to get; and we have seen the beginnings since mid season '15
you follow recruiting and you know the longer this recruiting defense failure continues the worse it is going to get; and we have seen the beginnings since mid season '15
Are you insinuating that players may have some effect on outcomes? A rather radical suggestion.
Are you insinuating that players may have some effect on outcomes? A rather radical suggestion.
players playing for a competent head coach have great impact on winning! See tOSU or UM!
your attempt at excuse was not well thought out.
This is not a well coached team by any stretch. Our next game is big.Are you insinuating that players may have some effect on outcomes? A rather radical suggestion.
Gotta stop the slide....
I have had several issues this year with our coaching, both from a preparation and game coaching perspective. But anyone who thinks that players have no role in this slide we're in either never played team sports, or is a total moron. Players have a lot to do with it. I am not a proponent of blaming players, especially individual ones, but just blindly excusing anything they do wrong is just as bad as blaming them.
^ yes your argument that the poorly prepared players refusing to try harder to execute ill conceived game plans puts the onus on themselves
thank you for pointing that out to 'us' morons!
thank you for pointing that out to 'us' morons!
thats right....players are accountable.....the problem is that the coaches are allowing these players to coast along....they are using the rope they are given.....happens all the time in the workplace...its a lack of productivity. Ultimately that too rests on the coaches shoulders.
I'm just growing weary of the "everything is Kelly's fault" mantra. The ultimate responsibility lies at his feet, and he will sink or swim based on our results. But everything that happens in a season or in a game or in a series of downs is not Brian Kelly's doing. At the Stanford game my friend and I were in the next to last row in the north end zone. Behind us sat three Class of 2016 grads who could not have been any more obnoxious if they were trying to be. It was my friends inaugural trip to an ND game and I was totally embarrassed. And mortified by the thought that I could have acted like that 36 years ago. Anyway, they loudly and vocally blamed EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED IN THE GAME on Kelly. Missed block, Kelly's fault, bad punt, Kelly's fault, dropped pass, Kelly's fault, lost yardage play, Kelly's fault, missed tackle, Kelly's fault. The ultimate was in the 3Q when we had 4th and long at around the Stanford 35 or 40. We looked like we were going for it, but I even said to my friend don't be surprised if we pooch this thing and try to get them deep in their own end. It was an awkward down and distance at an awkward part of the field, so it seemed very plausible. So Kizer drops into short punt formation, pooches it and unfortunately it makes it to the end zone for the touchback. Good attempt, just didn't work as we'd hoped, ball took a big bounce forward, $hit happens. These guys act like we just threw the pick in the Tulsa game. They are going ballistic. That was the dumbest thing they had ever seen in a football game, why would you have your QB punt the ball instead of the punter, Brian Kelly must be the dumbest coach in college football history for trying that play, that play is the end of Notre Dame football as we know it!!! And I am not exaggerating. It was pretty pathetic. But that's where some of our fan base is today, everything that goes right is because of players, or maybe Mike Sanford, everything that goes wrong is because of Brian Kelly, especially now with BVG gone.
reading your post it would appear that Notre Dame is 6-1 and just had a bad game. We are 2-5 and every loss was to an underdog. These were the games that should have gone into the win column before the tough stretch we are getting ready to face. I would be interested to see your explanation for the other losses and how those came about.
Kelly has been coach for 7 seasons and these players were all recruited and trained by him and his staff. Players are not perfect but mistakes should only lead to one or two losses per year not 8 or 9 if they have a good coach. Kelly should be held as accountable as Weis or Willingham and if Jack cant see that he needs to be fired also.
That is not a very difficult schedule at all. Not one of these teams are elite and the Big 4 :
Georgia, MSU, USC and Stanford all are having sub par years . they are very similar to ND . The others teams will be ok but not scary to play. The question is momentum is this team going to win out ? go 7-5 and win a bowl game ... very BK - like . Imo they will lose every game except Army and if that is the case then he should get fired,. I don't want that to happen. I want them to win out and build on next year... have their best players return and the underclassmen develop . The coaches need to move players to position that will get the best players on the field. BK also need to hire an OC with a down hill, play action run game that is completely non- existant is this disgusting offense. The defense will have some MAJOR problems up front . Rochelle ( will play in NFL) and Jones are gone. Tillery , Cage and who else ???? What about all these soph DL they recruited ? Pathetic. ND version of 2017 can be really good on Offense with a new OC but the defense will still have some question marks . 8 wins this should be have been automatic ... it's the BK way. 3-9 and he is done.
Georgia, MSU, USC and Stanford all are having sub par years . they are very similar to ND . The others teams will be ok but not scary to play. The question is momentum is this team going to win out ? go 7-5 and win a bowl game ... very BK - like . Imo they will lose every game except Army and if that is the case then he should get fired,. I don't want that to happen. I want them to win out and build on next year... have their best players return and the underclassmen develop . The coaches need to move players to position that will get the best players on the field. BK also need to hire an OC with a down hill, play action run game that is completely non- existant is this disgusting offense. The defense will have some MAJOR problems up front . Rochelle ( will play in NFL) and Jones are gone. Tillery , Cage and who else ???? What about all these soph DL they recruited ? Pathetic. ND version of 2017 can be really good on Offense with a new OC but the defense will still have some question marks . 8 wins this should be have been automatic ... it's the BK way. 3-9 and he is done.
I just don't see it being as dire as you describe in 2017, as long as the following things happen on defense.
ND switches to a 3-4 scheme (which they've been running now for 3 weeks) to help mask the lack of bodies they have along the pillaged DL and to maximize the skill sets of the players they donhave. ND lacks speedy DE's neccessary in a 4-3 scheme, but what they do have and will continue to have next year is the big bodied kids you need to play the 3-4 scheme. This DL, a year from now, could be solid. Not amazing, not record breaking, not even top notch... But solid.
DE: Jay Hayes
2. Khalid Kareem
NG: Daniel Cage
2. Pete Mokwuah / Micah Dew-Treadway-Treadway
DE: Jerry Tillery
2. Jonathan Bonner
Again, great? Nope. But they've been playing much better the past 3 weeks since they moved to a base 3-4, dropped 7 and 8 into coverage and allowed these guys to power rush and get some coverage sacks, which is the staple of a 3-4 scheme.
If you do that, you're back to rush and drop linebackers (or Cat and Dog per Diaco). Daelin Hayes, Julian Okwara and Jamir Jones begin the transition to that stand up cat backer position that Prince Shembo played so well.
Your linebackers become...
Drop: Tranquil
2. Martini
ILB: Morgan
2. Bilal
ILB: Coney
2. Bilal
Rush: Hayes
2. Okwara
Is that front 7 amazing? No. But it could be better than you think. Tillery looks much more affective at end. Jay Hayes has been good since he started playing more. Morgan is going to be an NFL linebacker. Coney and Bilal will be OK beside him. Hayes and Okwara will be good players, we just don't know if that will happen as early as 2017, or if like most pass rushers, we really see their breakout season during their junior campaign. Lastly, Tranquil played his best game of the season vs Stanford. He was really good down in the box, which is where he should be 90% of the time, which is why his final two years in South Bend should be spent playing drop linebacker, where he's best suited. Bulk him up to 235lbs and play him on the edge of the defense, with coverage responsibilities vs tight ends and routes in the hook/curl zone.
That leaves the secondary. ND needs to continue to protect it's young corners by dropping into coverages that lend help over the top and don't ask their safeties to be supermen. Nick Watkins returns from injury and will be a good zone corner. Devin Butler may be back as well, pending what the school thinks. That gives you two senior corners. Shaun Crawford will be healthy (knock on wood) and can battle Julian Love for the nickel spot. Vaughn and Pride will continue to grow and push for time. Studstill and Elliot need to continue to grow, but by playing a lot of cover 2 and cover 4 you pear down responsibilities to half field looks and let them focus on getting over top and running down hill. Lastly, with a new scheme in place, I'm a huge advocate of bringinger Chase Claypool over to defense and teaching him how to play safety. Very bright kid and a physical specimen. ND has enough young receivers in a logjam. I'd like to see him take the Bennett Jackson route and slide over to help the backend of the defense.... Really want a 6'4.5, 220lb, carved out of stone, safety coming downhill into the box to fill, or running the alley.
Not trying to sugar coat anything don't expect this defense to be amazing in 2017, but I expect them to be good enough (pending a good hire and the implementation of a 3-4 scheme on a full time basis), for ND to focus on scoring and have a quality year vs that schedule.
JMO.
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Shoot Kelly an email and maybe he makes you DC. About as much chance of that as Tranquil playing linebacker and Kelly becoming a defensive guru. LOL.
Kelly will continue to underachieve. Who cares if ND wins 10-12 games, if the next game is a blowout beat down in a major bowl or in a playoff game? Guy's, we have watched this movie for 7 years now. Nothing will change under this coach. IIO, you can breakdown the roster anyway you want to. The bottom line is this, Kelly has not and will not improve as a head coach.
Z
exactly, being exposed as a product of a pathetic schedule is a real possibility. Recruitniks know that ND is recruiting at a tier Ii level compared to the Top teams. 1 or 2 such classes can be overcome but the slide under Kelly has become the norm. He just does not have the charismatic personality to excite nor resonate with recruits nor their families. The future fortunes are seen in recruiting.
Hypothetically speaking, if a highly respected, regarded and placed academic institution should then set as a goal to compete as a top tier athletic institution and take steps to make scholarships available to attract that small number of prospective students; then set up a separate core of study to accomodate those 'students' who choose to enter it, does that really in any way diminish the stature of the overall image of the academic profile of the general populace? How would a ND degree in Business, achieved by participation in the demanding core ciriculum, be tarnished by a National Championship in football?
I am questioning the relationship that says a football team made up of a group of special ciriculum students, who self enrolled in that ciriculum truly tarnishes the overall value or perception of the institution.
Truth be told, anyone that says they attended x,y,z university on a full football schol, is probably facing a certain stigma about their academic qualification anyways. The truth then is in the detail and examination.
exactly, being exposed as a product of a pathetic schedule is a real possibility. Recruitniks know that ND is recruiting at a tier Ii level compared to the Top teams. 1 or 2 such classes can be overcome but the slide under Kelly has become the norm. He just does not have the charismatic personality to excite nor resonate with recruits nor their families. The future fortunes are seen in recruiting.
Hypothetically speaking, if a highly respected, regarded and placed academic institution should then set as a goal to compete as a top tier athletic institution and take steps to make scholarships available to attract that small number of prospective students; then set up a separate core of study to accomodate those 'students' who choose to enter it, does that really in any way diminish the stature of the overall image of the academic profile of the general populace? How would a ND degree in Business, achieved by participation in the demanding core ciriculum, be tarnished by a National Championship in football?
I am questioning the relationship that says a football team made up of a group of special ciriculum students, who self enrolled in that ciriculum truly tarnishes the overall value or perception of the institution.
Truth be told, anyone that says they attended x,y,z university on a full football schol, is probably facing a certain stigma about their academic qualification anyways. The truth then is in the detail and examination.
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Not claiming he will. I'm not predicting a playoff spot with the current roster or the defense I projected. All I've been saying is that ND will be improved and that I'll take anyone's bet if they want the under on 7.5 wins in 2017.
Big deal? Who cares if they win 8 or 9 games. That's like bragging on your kid for getting a C when you used to get Fs.
the schedule is dumbed down enough to give the give false hope; let's hope Harbaugh is gone in '18! that might be a historic beatdown.
Wow! Now we are reduced to a guaranteed 7-8 win season. Kelly is getting paid BIG $$$$$, we should be guaranteed a playoff run every year.
Didn't say I was ok with 8-9 wins, and I share the opinion the Kelly's time in South Bend is coming to an end and he's taken the program as far as he can and it will be up to the next guy to try to do better... I just don't see the doom-and-gloom some fans do. ND is having a shitt season. There is a ton of blame to go around and that buck stops with Kelly. This is fixable though. ND isn't going to win with the consistency of an Alabama, but with a small bump in recruiting and an attitude check with regards to scheme (both sides of the ball), there is no reason why ND can't win like Oregon did under Chip Kelly, Oklahoma has under Bob Stoops, or the past 5 years of Dantonio at Michigan State.
amazing how Kelly has transformed ND fan expectations!
Weis: 9-3 will get you fired! at least the guy had standards that he knew applied to him.
Kelly? first fans lowered the bar to 8-4: good season
now
IIO bravely sets his bar at 7.5 wins!
Ty got fired at 6-5. Remember that. Ty deserved to be fired.
This is comical. My bar isn't set at 7.5 wins. I've noted on many occasions that I think ND can be a perennial top 15 program, in the playoff discussion most years, which gives you an opportunity to make a run for a championship.
In modern college football, I doubt ND will ever truly standout among the top 2-3 teams over an extended period of time. I doubt any non football factory can do that over an extended period. They can be an upper echelon team, however, that competes for championships.
My comparison is Oklahoma. I think a lot of Irish homers are holding their breath that we'll live see another "Alabama" in South Bend, but a Bob Stoops'ish type run would be my realistic expectation given the limitations in South Bend.
After several losing seasons, I could see it. Still think Strong is an excellent DC at his core (when he doesn't have a program to run) and he'll scooped up pretty quickly as a DC at a big time program, or as a HC at a lesser program.
Would love to have Charlie as ND's DC, except that he runs a great deal of 4-3 base and I'm 100% of the mindset that ND should run a 3-4 as its base, with the personnel available to them and the current roster in South Bend. It hasn't been a large sample size, but ND's pass rush has increased exponentially since they made the switch back to the 3-4 as their base and helped their young DB's out by mixing 8, 7 and 6 man coverages, with more cover 2 and cover 4 and less cover 1 and cover 3... As we talked about several weeks ago, ND would greatly improve their pass rush if they got better coverage on the backend of their defense. As I think almost all of us have predicted, that has been the obvious reality with Jones, Rochell, Tillery, Bonner and Cage collapsing the pocket and timely blitzes from Tranquil, Morgan and Onwualu serving as extra pressure.
Not to be a revisionist, but can you imagine how much better this scheme would have been last year if ND was running the same 3-4 look, with Jaylon screaming up the middle (in the role Morgan has played since the change), instead of the two freshman doing so.
In retrospect, this 3-4 zone scheme would have gotten ND to the playoffs with
DE: Sheldon Day
NG: Daniel Cage / Isaac Rochell
DE: Jerry Tillery
Rush: Romeo Okwara
ILB: Nyles Morgan
ILB: Jaylon Smith
Drop: James Onwualu
CB: Kei Russell
S: Max Redfield
S: Elijah Shumate
CB: Cole Luke
NB: Matthias Farley
It's funny how football works. the same personnel can yield wildly difference results when put into the right scheme. Okwara would have served in Prince Shembo role. Morgan and Smith would have been a dynamic tandem in the Te'o / Fox role and Onwualu would have been (as he continues to be) a quality coverage drop linebacker. The scheme would have else suited ND's safeties because neither were great in the Cover 1 and Cover 3 high / low concepts, but both were well suited to be half field safeties who played 2 high on the hash in Cover 2 and Cover 4 looks. Shumate in particular, ran the alley extremely well in run support.
I like the idea of looking at the potential of a 3-4 lineup down the road. I love the size and length of some of the pieces on the roster and in the recruiting class. Khalid Kareem, Jerry Tillery, Darnell Ewell, Daelin Hayes, Julian Okwara, Te'Von Coney, Pete Werner, David Adams, Donte Vaughn, Devin Studstill, Julian Love, Troy Pride, Shaun Crawford, Paulson Adebo, Elijah Hicks, Nick Watkins, Drue Tranquil etc, etc, are all prospects that I feel a lot better about in a 3-4 scheme than in a 4-3 scheme. When you recruit, big, physical, kids, that lack elite foot speed, I'd rather play them in a scheme that is spread out more laterally, and plays top down defense, rather than turn and run defense.
Clemson has no business being a better football program than ND. However, Dabo has now made them a steady contender the last few years. You have to get the right guy for the job. Bama football was a thing of the past until Saban arrived. Ohio St. was fading until Meyer arrived. I cannot stand Jimmy in Ann Arbor but he has turned the program around. Petersen is starting to do things in Washington.
ND can compete year in and year out with the right coach.
ND can compete year in and year out with the right coach.
Disagree on the Clemson front... That's a statement rooted in tradition and not what's happening right now. Clemson is located in a region loaded with football talent within driving distance. They can recruit anybody, land all the bodies they need on defense and with South Carolina in the shitter, they are the flagship program in the state, as well as one of the two top powers in the ACC, along with Florida State. They have passionate fans, an awesome stadium, with cool traditions, a pretty campus, great weather, and have you walked around that campus and viewed the "scenery"?.... Clemson has has every right to have a top notch program in 2016, given the things that are important to kids these days. Especially when you factor in it's proximity to about 60-70% of the best football talent in the country every year.
Dabo has done a great job there. People would be silly to argue that. But to say that Clemson has no business having a better program than ND in 2016 is to completely ignore to the current landscape of college football and what factors the top kids routinely look for in a school...
ND's path is a little different. They are going to need a great coach who understands how to win at Notre Dame. It's harder in South Bend.
Don't kid yourselves people. It's going to be a slop fest next season too. There are a lot of good athletes on this team but the head coach doesn't know what he's doing.
Clemson sucked for a lot of years until Dabo got there. Coaching matters, indeed.
