What happened?

[mmboys07]

OK, look; common sense says that if the GT and Navy offensive schemes were so _________hot they wouldn't have gone out of fashion. Remember the wishbone; triple option? Did they disappear simply because coaches didn't like them anymore? Or, because NFL bound quarterbacks didn't want to play for those teams?
Or, did defenses simply find a way to consistently shut them down? I seem to remember Ara out scheming Texas and shutting down their wishbone. So, what is the deal??

 

[IrishHerb]

Probably a little bit of each.

 

[beachcardinal]

Because they don't work against the better athletes in the Pros and kids want to play in the pros.

 

[IrishBlooded]

They have a lower success rate vs schools that have weeks to prepare for them. This leads to bowl game losses when playing against superior athletes. And that means no championships. And that is all that matters at this level.

 

[perseverare]

they work better when they are the exception than common - teams don't see them often and hence don't spend the time practicing for them.

But probably the biggest difference is defensive personel. The lack of big LBers up the middle, like Tommy Nobis or Golic or even Butkis; teams don't recruit to stop the run but recruit to deal with the spead and the fast paced offenses.

 

[FSUTribe76]

They have a lower success rate vs schools that have weeks to prepare for them. This leads to bowl game losses when playing against superior athletes. And that means no championships. And that is all that matters at this level.

Well the last three years worth of bowls with an option attack, Georgia Tech beat Miss State and USC(w) easily and lost by one TD to Ole Miss. Not that shabby of a record.

 

[BGI User 1596]

OK, look; common sense says that if the GT and Navy offensive schemes were so _________hot they wouldn't have gone out of fashion. Remember the wishbone; triple option? Did they disappear simply because coaches didn't like them anymore? Or, because NFL bound quarterbacks didn't want to play for those teams?
Or, did defenses simply find a way to consistently shut them down? I seem to remember Ara out scheming Texas and shutting down their wishbone. So, what is the deal??

We don't have Ara anymore.

 

[Irish Grandeur]

Because they don't work against the better athletes in the Pros and kids want to play in the pros.

Exactly...the pros have the athletes to shut down this attack without a problem. ND has the athletes to shut it down as well. Key will be stopping the fullback. With the speed on ND's defense, they should be able to fly to the ball as the QB and pitchman string out the play toward the sidelines.

 

[brewbuzzn]

They have a lower success rate vs schools that have weeks to prepare for them. This leads to bowl game losses when playing against superior athletes. And that means no championships. And that is all that matters at this level.

I used to give that reason a lot of credibility, but not so much anymore. I look at GT trying to impose its will via the option just like other teams and their offensive game plans. Either the kids execute or they don't.....and that's a complicated mix of their ability to work the staff's plan plus the opposing team's efforts to stop them. There are plenty of teams out there who have been running the same offensive scheme for years and in some cases opposing teams still can't stop them regularly (i.e. Alabama). MSU had almost a month to prepare last season and looked completely lost at game time. I'd even have to admit from top to bottom they had superior athletes.

One of the other posters mentioned something about this type of attack falling out of favor since it doesn't translate well in the pro environment. I'd say that's a big yes. Professional defensive speed is insane. Hard to imagine the type of offensive coordination/speed you'd need to work the option successfully for an entire game. QBs and RBs would eventually get annihilated. Mike Vick's single season (and career) QB rushing records look very very safe.

 

[SALittleGiant513]

Well the last three years worth of bowls with an option attack, Georgia Tech beat Miss State and USC(w) easily and lost by one TD to Ole Miss. Not that shabby of a record.

Cool, 0 championships though.

 

[IrishBlooded]

Well the last three years worth of bowls with an option attack, Georgia Tech beat Miss State and USC(w) easily and lost by one TD to Ole Miss. Not that shabby of a record.

Paul Johnson has been at GTech since 2008.

In that time he has amassed a bowl record of 2-5. He has wins over USC (who went 7-5 that year and was first year off sanctions) and a good win over Mississippi State in the Orange last year. And they came a couple plays short of defeating FSU in the ACC championship last year as well.

Also in that time he has lost to:
LSU 3-38 in the Peach
Iowa 14-24 in the Orange
Air Force 7-14 in the Independence
Utah 27-30 in the Sun
Ole' Miss 17-25 in the Music City

That isn't to say he hasn't been successful. Since Johnson has arrived at GTech they are over all 61-35 for a win % of .635 which ain't shabby. Also in those numbers is this:
Vs end of year top 10 he is 3-6
Vs end of year ranked he is 10-12

Vs Bowl teams he is 28-30

So there are some good and bad in there.

View the numbers here

 

[brewbuzzn]

Cool, 0 championships though.

You are absolutely right, and unfortunately GT is in the same position as about 120 of the 128 FBS teams.....it will take the perfect storm to have a shot at a national championship any time soon.

 

[IRISHJD98]

Because they don't work against the better athletes in the Pros and kids want to play in the pros.

"I think it's one word: recruiting," says Lou Holtz, who ran option football at five stops in his college coaching career, including with his Notre Dame national champion in 1988. "Once alumni started treating recruiting like it was a season in itself, it became very difficult to run the option. All of a sudden, [if you were an option team,] you couldn't get the dominant quarterback, because you weren't going to throw the football and get him ready for the NFL. You couldn't get the dominant left tackle, because you weren't going to teach him to pass-block. You couldn't get the dominant running back, because he wasn't going to be featured enough. Now, you can still win with the option even if you don't get those people, but if you're not getting those top recruits, the alumni start to think you're losing and you're not exciting enough."

 

[brewbuzzn]

Paul Johnson has been at GTech since 2008.

In that time he has amassed a bowl record of 2-5. He has wins over USC (who went 7-5 that year and was first year off sanctions) and a good win over Mississippi State in the Orange last year. And they came a couple plays short of defeating FSU in the ACC championship last year as well.

Also in that time he has lost to:
LSU 3-38 in the Peach
Iowa 14-24 in the Orange
Air Force 7-14 in the Independence
Utah 27-30 in the Sun
Ole' Miss 17-25 in the Music City

That isn't to say he hasn't been successful. Since Johnson has arrived at GTech they are over all 61-35 for a win % of .635 which ain't shabby. Also in those numbers is this:
Vs end of year top 10 he is 3-6
Vs end of year ranked he is 10-12

Vs Bowl teams he is 28-30

So there are some good and bad in there.

View the numbers here

you are absolutely right too. Most of the stats you show above contributed to the fanbase uneasiness during his tenure. I honestly can't say we won't continue to have results periodically like you noted above. How often can we predict we'll get a kids like J Thomas or J. Nesbitt to run the offense? Nesbitt was more tough than fast, but it worked because he could make the reads. I'll tell you what, I think the GT defense (or lack thereof) has been a major contributor to big game fails too. Even last year during the Orange Bowl they really didn't do that well aside from a few key turnovers. Dak racked up insane passing numbers. Fortunately the offense was clicking and the MSU defense never left the hotel. Frankly I think they'll be the key factor on Saturday too. GT won't have the kind of offensive success they had in weeks1/2 but I do think they will move the ball. Now can the defense minimize the ND success? It's definitely something to be concerned about if you're a GT fan. Regardless it's going to be a good game, and one that I wish I could attend. We're going to the FSU vs BC game and on Saturday will find a pub somewhere in Boston to watch GT-ND. Good luck and here's to hoping no one gets hurt!

 

[SALittleGiant513]

You are absolutely right, and unfortunately GT is in the same position as about 120 of the 128 FBS teams.....it will take the perfect storm to have a shot at a national championship any time soon.

That isn't a knock on GT by the way. It is what it is, everyone wants a national championship.

 

[floridairish]

It's an offense that will never attract 4 and 5 star athletes. The HS blue chip QB does not have an opportunity to throw 35 passes and does not want to get hit 20 times a game. No feature RB wants to see the running game spread out over 4 backs, QB, A Back, B Back and C Back. No big time HS WR is going to want to go a place where he is not going to have a chance to catch 5-10 balls per week, And spend the majority of his time cut blocking.

How do think ND has been able to attract so many skill players over the past 10 years. Because Charlie Weis despite being a monumental failure of a Head Coach, had some street cred via Tom Brady and the Patriots. It was a sham and complete BS, but it did attract a Jimmy Clausen, Mike Floyd, Theo Riddick, Golden Tate, Tyler Eifert and Kyle Rudolph. Brian Kelly because of his Spread Offense and pin ball score numbers he put up at Cincinnati and the fact ND basically puts up 500 yards and 30 plus points per week is attracting Big Time skill players on National Level.

The offense is fine for a Service Academy or a school like G Tech who is going to get all the players Georgia doesn't want. But no blue blood program who understands the key to competing for a National Title is recruiting, will ever go near this scheme.

 

[88ND]

The WR by and large wants the ball.
Having said that look at how many receivers we have. Not enough balls to go around so there is a draw back and don't tell Calvin Johnson what you think.

I beg to differ on the RB spot. A blue chip RB wants the ball. He would also rather opt to have a fullback than be naked all the time. So I ask you...what is better to get lots of carries and be successful....running behind a spread offense naked with no full back and majority of your blocking is specializing in the pass....or go to a running program with a blocking back and a scheme that promotes blocking for the run.

QB's don't want to run the option. Most of them anyways. They would rather throw the ball 35 times a game. Having said that let me ask you this. How many dedicated spread QB's have had success long term in the NFL?
Still waiting for that answer. The blue chip drop back passer is not going to the program that runs the spread anyways. Certainly not if he wants his odds to increase on future sunday success.

Let's face it..the 4 and 5 star guys..even 3 star guys ultimate goal is to play on sundays. But you are stereotyping all this because you heard or read it some place. The reality is this........

D1 football is a copycat business. Always has been.
If you are a coach today and you run an old school offense...have no success then it's because you aren't running the latest trendy offense i.e. spread.
A coach who is running the spread and having the same lack of success will get a longer leash.

When Alabama was banging out NC's over the last decade..what offense did they run? A conventional pro style offense with ready for this.....a full back. It wasn't flashy, didn't put up 65 points a game but nobody could stop them. They owned the clock and they wore you down. They have had some pretty good material at the above spots you mentioned come through there...no?

I say this again, all it would take is a hungry Tom Osborne type selling hard to the right players and it would decimate defenses of today. Nobody is equipped to defend power running anymore. If you are then you are not equipped to defend the spread by and large.

The other thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the spread/hurry up offense enables you to score some points on anyone. Teams that would have been shut out before can get on the board some. I guess losing 55-21 sounds a lot better than losing 28-0

 

[brewbuzzn]

That isn't a knock on GT by the way. It is what it is, everyone wants a national championship.

Didn't think you were knocking GT at all....I was trying to agree, but ended up confusing my point a little.

 

[FSUTribe76]

Cool, 0 championships though.

Yes but I'm not sure where you're going with that. Georgia Tech has a more recent MNC than Notre Dame (88 to 90). Not that I'm saying that really means anything as both are 25 years or more ago, but ND with its nonoption attacking has played for what maybe one more national championship it didn't get over GT.

Really, if you'd been healthy for this game I'd still be inclined to give it to GT as I expected ND to lose to at least 2 to GT and Clemson. But now that you're NOT healthy...we'll see if you can keep it close. I will not be surprised if it's an old fashioned thrashing and there's a giant meltdown here on Monday.

 

[Nocalirish]

Yes but I'm not sure where you're going with that. Georgia Tech has a more recent MNC than Notre Dame (88 to 90). Not that I'm saying that really means anything as both are 25 years or more ago, but ND with its nonoption attacking has played for what maybe one more national championship it didn't get over GT.

Really, if you'd been healthy for this game I'd still be inclined to give it to GT as I expected ND to lose to at least 2 to GT and Clemson. But now that you're NOT healthy...we'll see if you can keep it close. I will not be surprised if it's an old fashioned thrashing and there's a giant meltdown here on Monday.

Criminoles. LOL. Dont you have to rape someone or steal some shoes or crablegs.

 

[FSUTribe76]

Criminoles. LOL. Dont you have to rape someone or steal some shoes or crablegs.

Hey look it's that classic Notre Dame superiority complex for no reason type of thing. Never thought that would show up here. Lol

 

[FSUTribe76]

Criminoles. LOL. Dont you have to rape someone or steal some shoes or crablegs.

But good job getting the Texas AD fired. I'm sure Strong is next unless they have some type of monster recovery that I just do not see happening. I never thought we'd see Texas brought so low but you definitely stuck it to them.

 

[SALittleGiant513]

Yes but I'm not sure where you're going with that. Georgia Tech has a more recent MNC than Notre Dame (88 to 90). Not that I'm saying that really means anything as both are 25 years or more ago, but ND with its nonoption attacking has played for what maybe one more national championship it didn't get over GT.

Really, if you'd been healthy for this game I'd still be inclined to give it to GT as I expected ND to lose to at least 2 to GT and Clemson. But now that you're NOT healthy...we'll see if you can keep it close. I will not be surprised if it's an old fashioned thrashing and there's a giant meltdown here on Monday.

Here is the big chief tablet for you...

1. OP asks what happened to the Option and why did its popularity decrease

2. Posters give multiple reasons that are all valid to varying degrees one of them being an offense focused on the triple option doesn't win championships in today's game and one of the reasons for this is that it is easier to beat the option when you have a longer period of time to prepare for it, i.e. in Bowl season.

3. GT poster in response to the point about championships states they have had quite a bit of success in bowls since PJ came in and provides his evidence.

4. I respond, with the quoted post stating that still doesn't provide a championship.

5. I then respond again by saying that isn't a knock on GT because everyone want to win a title.

Its all there man and since its a thread from Wednesday you could have just read it instead of posting about a NC from 25 years ago when the topic was concerning offenses in today's game.

 

[NDSMC78]

Yes but I'm not sure where you're going with that. Georgia Tech has a more recent MNC than Notre Dame (88 to 90). Not that I'm saying that really means anything as both are 25 years or more ago, but ND with its nonoption attacking has played for what maybe one more national championship it didn't get over GT.

Really, if you'd been healthy for this game I'd still be inclined to give it to GT as I expected ND to lose to at least 2 to GT and Clemson. But now that you're NOT healthy...we'll see if you can keep it close. I will not be surprised if it's an old fashioned thrashing and there's a giant meltdown here on Monday.

No kidding. FSU kicks off against BC in a few hours, and this clown is over here giving us grief.

 

[Ball4life34]

It's an offense that will never attract 4 and 5 star athletes. The HS blue chip QB does not have an opportunity to throw 35 passes and does not want to get hit 20 times a game. No feature RB wants to see the running game spread out over 4 backs, QB, A Back, B Back and C Back. No big time HS WR is going to want to go a place where he is not going to have a chance to catch 5-10 balls per week, And spend the majority of his time cut blocking.

How do think ND has been able to attract so many skill players over the past 10 years. Because Charlie Weis despite being a monumental failure of a Head Coach, had some street cred via Tom Brady and the Patriots. It was a sham and complete BS, but it did attract a Jimmy Clausen, Mike Floyd, Theo Riddick, Golden Tate, Tyler Eifert and Kyle Rudolph. Brian Kelly because of his Spread Offense and pin ball score numbers he put up at Cincinnati and the fact ND basically puts up 500 yards and 30 plus points per week is attracting Big Time skill players on National Level.

The offense is fine for a Service Academy or a school like G Tech who is going to get all the players Georgia doesn't want. But no blue blood program who understands the key to competing for a National Title is recruiting, will ever go near this scheme.

But Georgia Tech has put 4 recievers in the NFL since Paul Johnson has been there. I agree with maybe a top QB not wanting to go to Tech but if you're a top RB or WR, you go to Tech put up dominant stats and then head to the NFL.

 

[NDSMC78]

Hey look it's that classic Notre Dame superiority complex for no reason type of thing. Never thought that would show up here. Lol

You know, it was nice after Oregon kicked your ass last year, causing all of the FSU fans to leave this board. I hope that your visit here will be short in duration.

 

[Ball4life34]

The WR by and large wants the ball.
Having said that look at how many receivers we have. Not enough balls to go around so there is a draw back and don't tell Calvin Johnson what you think.

I beg to differ on the RB spot. A blue chip RB wants the ball. He would also rather opt to have a fullback than be naked all the time. So I ask you...what is better to get lots of carries and be successful....running behind a spread offense naked with no full back and majority of your blocking is specializing in the pass....or go to a running program with a blocking back and a scheme that promotes blocking for the run.

QB's don't want to run the option. Most of them anyways. They would rather throw the ball 35 times a game. Having said that let me ask you this. How many dedicated spread QB's have had success long term in the NFL?
Still waiting for that answer. The blue chip drop back passer is not going to the program that runs the spread anyways. Certainly not if he wants his odds to increase on future sunday success.

Let's face it..the 4 and 5 star guys..even 3 star guys ultimate goal is to play on sundays. But you are stereotyping all this because you heard or read it some place. The reality is this........

D1 football is a copycat business. Always has been.
If you are a coach today and you run an old school offense...have no success then it's because you aren't running the latest trendy offense i.e. spread.
A coach who is running the spread and having the same lack of success will get a longer leash.

When Alabama was banging out NC's over the last decade..what offense did they run? A conventional pro style offense with ready for this.....a full back. It wasn't flashy, didn't put up 65 points a game but nobody could stop them. They owned the clock and they wore you down. They have had some pretty good material at the above spots you mentioned come through there...no?

I say this again, all it would take is a hungry Tom Osborne type selling hard to the right players and it would decimate defenses of today. Nobody is equipped to defend power running anymore. If you are then you are not equipped to defend the spread by and large.

The other thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the spread/hurry up offense enables you to score some points on anyone. Teams that would have been shut out before can get on the board some. I guess losing 55-21 sounds a lot better than losing 28-0

Agree with this but Calvin Johnson never played in the triple option. Demaryius Thomas did though and he's one of the best in the NFL.

 

[Ball4life34]

Paul Johnson has been at GTech since 2008.

In that time he has amassed a bowl record of 2-5. He has wins over USC (who went 7-5 that year and was first year off sanctions) and a good win over Mississippi State in the Orange last year. And they came a couple plays short of defeating FSU in the ACC championship last year as well.

Also in that time he has lost to:
LSU 3-38 in the Peach
Iowa 14-24 in the Orange
Air Force 7-14 in the Independence
Utah 27-30 in the Sun
Ole' Miss 17-25 in the Music City

That isn't to say he hasn't been successful. Since Johnson has arrived at GTech they are over all 61-35 for a win % of .635 which ain't shabby. Also in those numbers is this:
Vs end of year top 10 he is 3-6
Vs end of year ranked he is 10-12

Vs Bowl teams he is 28-30

So there are some good and bad in there.

View the numbers here

Other than LSU/Iowa...Tech's team wasn't good because of bad QB play. So the offense sucked even if you only had a week to prepare. Tech lost to LSU because they kept turning it over and Iowa's DL dominated Tech's OL. I don't think they lost...just because they had extra time to prepare.

 

[Irish Grandeur]

Guys, this FSU handle just wants to get under your skin. He gets his jollies that way. Don't let him jerk you around. I immediately wanted to respond to him until I realized I have guys on ignore that don't flame as much as he does. Leave him alone and let him go away.

 

[FSUTribe76]

Here is the big chief tablet for you...

1. OP asks what happened to the Option and why did its popularity decrease

2. Posters give multiple reasons that are all valid to varying degrees one of them being an offense focused on the triple option doesn't win championships in today's game and one of the reasons for this is that it is easier to beat the option when you have a longer period of time to prepare for it, i.e. in Bowl season.

3. GT poster in response to the point about championships states they have had quite a bit of success in bowls since PJ came in and provides his evidence.

4. I respond, with the quoted post stating that still doesn't provide a championship.

5. I then respond again by saying that isn't a knock on GT because everyone want to win a title.

Its all there man and since its a thread from Wednesday you could have just read it instead of posting about a NC from 25 years ago when the topic was concerning offenses in today's game.

Oh ok, I assumed it was just some snide comment about how GT hadn't won a championship in quite some time. I will freely admit I don't read your board in its entirety, I pretty much just come to laugh at the Argus personas and make sure he's not busy murdering people in Tallahassee since at least one of his personas claims to live here.

Truthfully, I will be very impressed if you can beat Georgia Tech. I think they're seriously underranked at the moment as is Clemson. If you took Clemson, Georgia Tech and FSU at the moment and slapped them under the SEC banner we'd probably be #2, 3 and 4 at the moment. And frankly, I'm quite concerned about the outcome when FSU meets Georgia Tech, while our defense has done quite well in the game when the opponent is doing straightforward things, we've messed up quite frequently for big gains when it's come to "tricksy" plays both against USF and Texas State. And the GT offense is basically nothing BUT "tricksy" plays which requires position discipline to defend rather than athleticism.

 

[SALittleGiant513]

In general I think that most of the posters on this board think GT will be an extremely challenging game.

 

[tkirish]

If you have superior athletes on defense and run the right scheme you can stop the triple option. Case in point. Miami vs Oklahoma in the mid 80s met three straight years. Miami won all three games. They had the speed and athletes on defense to shut down Oklahoma. Whether ND has enough athletes and speed on defense this week remains to be seen. Hopefully they do.

 

[Pennick4]

I think Paul Johnson is a really good football coach but glad he doesn't coach the teams I root for. His winning percentage at GT is approx 63 percent. GT has academic standards unlike most good college football teams.

 

[Bodizephax]

Last year Mississippi States defensive coordinator left right after the season and the defense had to get ready for GTECH with out one.

This could have been a reason GTECH moved the ball so well on them.

 

[Invincible Lucky Green]

But their scheme works great against teams like ND who are not accustomed to this style of offense, have poor preparation because of coaching and don't have superior athletes to make up for poor coaching. This is why GT will roll 52-14 and prove once and for all that Kelly is an 8-5 coach

 

[tkirish]

But their scheme works great against teams like ND who are not accustomed to this style of offense, have poor preparation because of coaching and don't have superior athletes to make up for poor coaching. This is why GT will roll 52-14 and prove once and for all that Kelly is an 8-5 coach

Well I can't say your wrong. Tomorrow we will find out one way or the other. Recent history does show that the Irish struggle against this type of offense. Again we just have to see how they do.