Torii Hunter Jr Will Not Return
- Thread starter AdvanSix
- Start date
This is a good thing for all sides. Torii is a great kid and a an ideal role model, but on the field, he had the chance to be TJ Jones as a senior, but he just isn't that tough. He doesn't battle through injuries and football was only ever one of his interests, so one has to wonder how invested in it he really was.
We need kids that live and breathe football. That's what it takes to win. I love kids like Steve Elmer, Corey Robinson and ToriI Hunter because they are well rounded and they "get it", but I don't want them on my football team. 3 important seniors that should have been starters and captains and none of them made it to / through their senior year.
Think about how much better the offense would have been if Elmer was at RG instead of the Bivin / McGovern platoon and if Robinson was at W, allowing St. Brown to play X and Torii to play Z....
QB: Kizer
RB: Adams
WR: Robinson
WR: Elmer
SLOT: Hunter
LT: McGlinchey
LG: Nelson
C: Mustipher
RG: Elmer
RT: Bars
That is a much better, more developed offense than the one we saw.
I keep telling people that although there were significant coaching issues this year, all the crap leading up to the season is why this team was sub .500...
SR: Steve Elmer (Starting RG): Quit the team
SR: Corey Robinson (Starting WR): Quit the team
SR: Torii Hunter Jr (Starting WR): Essentially checked out
SR: Max Redfield (Starting FS): kicked off the team
SR: Devin Butler (2-Deep CB): kicked off the team
JR: Nick Watkins (Starting CB): Did not heal as expected
SOPH: Shaun Crawford (Starting NB): Hurt / year
5 seniors, a junior and a sophomore, all of who were starters, we're done before the season even got going. We can blame coaches all we want and a lot of that blame is justifiable, but the fact remains that a considerable amount of time was put into developing the above players, and force reasons ranging from selfishness, to opportunity in other areas, to injuries at key positions, ND went into the season down 1/3 of it's starting group and that can't be ignored. Pair that with the DL defections that I've already blabbed on about and the terrible coaching under Van Gorder, and 4-8 makes sense in retrospect.
We need kids that live and breathe football. That's what it takes to win. I love kids like Steve Elmer, Corey Robinson and ToriI Hunter because they are well rounded and they "get it", but I don't want them on my football team. 3 important seniors that should have been starters and captains and none of them made it to / through their senior year.
Think about how much better the offense would have been if Elmer was at RG instead of the Bivin / McGovern platoon and if Robinson was at W, allowing St. Brown to play X and Torii to play Z....
QB: Kizer
RB: Adams
WR: Robinson
WR: Elmer
SLOT: Hunter
LT: McGlinchey
LG: Nelson
C: Mustipher
RG: Elmer
RT: Bars
That is a much better, more developed offense than the one we saw.
I keep telling people that although there were significant coaching issues this year, all the crap leading up to the season is why this team was sub .500...
SR: Steve Elmer (Starting RG): Quit the team
SR: Corey Robinson (Starting WR): Quit the team
SR: Torii Hunter Jr (Starting WR): Essentially checked out
SR: Max Redfield (Starting FS): kicked off the team
SR: Devin Butler (2-Deep CB): kicked off the team
JR: Nick Watkins (Starting CB): Did not heal as expected
SOPH: Shaun Crawford (Starting NB): Hurt / year
5 seniors, a junior and a sophomore, all of who were starters, we're done before the season even got going. We can blame coaches all we want and a lot of that blame is justifiable, but the fact remains that a considerable amount of time was put into developing the above players, and force reasons ranging from selfishness, to opportunity in other areas, to injuries at key positions, ND went into the season down 1/3 of it's starting group and that can't be ignored. Pair that with the DL defections that I've already blabbed on about and the terrible coaching under Van Gorder, and 4-8 makes sense in retrospect.
If you have the choice between those two sports baseball is the obvious choice.
I like Tori, but we've got talented youngsters to step in there. That's not a position we need to worry about.
There's a place up ahead and I'm goin'
Just as fast as my feet can fly
Come away, come away if you're goin'
Leave the sinkin' ship behind.....
Talent, yes, but experience especially in routes was a step down this year, St. Brown and Stepherson will have some experience next year, but will still be on the young side at the position.
Turnover had nothing to do with it. In 6 of his 7 years the run game has been pathetic. It's poorly designed, poorly executed and frankly you can tell they don't practice it properly. ST has been poor for 7 years and all the returning players in the world aren't going to fix that.
The 'check with me' system has been an abysmal failure and has led to the regression of 4 QBs under Kelly. RZ offense is schemed exactly the same in year 7 as is was in year 1 and its failed every year. Turnovers, poor game time decisions, formations and personnel packages that scream the playcall to the other team for 7 years. Poor recruiting at the DL and DB positions exasperated the defections but again that's on the coaches.
Sorry, you couldn't be more wrong, it's all about coaching and not what players we don't have.
Then it was all about coaching as well when ND went 12-0 under Kelly and played for the title. And it was all about coaching last year when they were a play away from the playoffs.
Kelly has had plenty of failures at ND, but he's also done some damn good coaching as well (again, see 2012)... Am I suggesting that ND would have been 12-0 had the players I mentioned been part of the program in 2016? No. But they were at least a .500 team and probably better. The rest of it is on the coaches. You need both good coaching and quaoity, developed, experienced playes. When one is lacking you are 6-6 or 7-5, maybe even 8-4. When both are lacking, you go 4-8.
Please explain how we were a play away from the playoffs. We were definitely a play away from a 4th loss....
Today insures Kelly a ninth season now. The 2017 team is just too young to win any games. Is Kelly not the luckiest coach in America? He has excuses every year.
Good post and I agree. Funny enough, I forgot Hunter Jr was even on the team.
Also, IIO, I think it says a lot about the quality of the coaching job Kelly has done (in a good way), because the BK lead Notre Dame football program has been able to overcome so many issues/suspensions/injuries/etc. over recent years. It has become normal by the time week 1 comes around, that ND loses 5+ key members on the 2 deep before opening kick off, and then another 5 key 2 deep members before the 5th game of the season. This is unheard of roster attrition.
Another note: I really like the fact that ND was in so many close games this year .. even with a 4-8 record .. they had a +35 point differential on the season (a 0 point differential suggests they should have went 6-6 .. a +35 suggests another couple of wins .. so even though the record was 4-8 .. ND played more like an 7-8 win team) ... combine that with all of the experience the young players in the secondary got this year .. and i can see a significant rebound next season in 2017.
ND has so much talent at WR the Hunter Jr retirement doesn't bother me too much. Between Stepherson (his development into one of the best freshmen receivers in college football was hugely underrated), St Brown, Claypool, and Alize Jones ... Wimbush is going to have no shortage of targets in 2017.
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You are correct. He get credit for 13-1 and he gets credit for 10-3. He also gets "credit for the 3, 8-5 seasons the 9-4 and the 4-8. IMO I put greater weight on years 4 and later because that's when you start playing with most of the players you recruited. I love the "one play away". We were also a few plays away from losing games last year and in 2012, do we get to "subtract" those games from his wins? The fact is we weren't in the playoff. The fact is we got embarrassed (again) in our bowl game.
Again, if he would have stayed, if, if if. The players weren't here and almost every team in the country could point to players they lost to transfers, NFL or injuries that might have improved their record. He failed at recruiting certain positions that's why the loss of some of those players hurt so much. You or I have no way of knowing with any certainty what would have happened if those players were on the roster but one incontrovertible fact is the 2016 Irish were 4-8 and there will be no asterisks for players they didn't have.
That said, Kelly gets credit for it all and, IMO 2 seasons out of 7 that you can point to as success is not good enough, not nearly good enough.
To be fair, anyone who watched CFB in 2012 knows ND could just as easily have been 8-4 as 12-0. Never has a HC gotten so much mileage out of a single season as Kelly has gotten out of '12. Hell, Gene Chizik went 14-0 won a BCS National Championship game and still got axed a few years later. Kelly is living on borrowed time and everyone - players and recruits - know it.
Don't agree with your premise that Torii wasn't tough enough or willing to fight through injuries and not fully invested. Seems like an unfounded cruel indictment of a talented young man that busted his butt to come back from a terrible injury and produced at a high level on the field. Quality young man and wish him a successful professional career in baseball.
Wrong. We were #6 after laying an egg vs bc.
Who would we have jumped?
Plus, We were a play away from a va loss.....
I wish him the best as well and I'll never speak ill of the kid, but I just call it like I see it. TJ Jones battled through his entire senior season, as a captain, with a shoulder that was in need of surgery. He sucked it up and played big time football for a team that desperately needed his production. He took some huge hits that shoulder over the course of the year and left the game grimacing and hunched over at times, but he always came back in, always made a clutch play when needed and was a warrior and a leader.
Hunter Jr did not play because quote "he went through drills in pre game and we just didn't see the explosiveness we were looking for".
Give 22 TJ Jones' as football players, over 22 Torii Hunters. Both are class individuals, but football is a tough game and TJ was TOUGH. Kids follow toughness. They emulate their peers. Torii belongs in baseball and I hope he absolutely kills in and makes an MLB squad!
If you remember, ND was close to losing at Pitt and several other games that year. The cards fell right for ND during the season.
The Te'o debacle and BK interviewing for a job in the NFL surely played a part. 2012 was a great season with no follow-through in the post season.
Chizik got axed for a lot of reasons, including the perception of under-achieving with the SEC talent he possessed. I'm not thrilled with BK but I don't feel he deserved to be fired for this season.
We have enough talent to have a 8-4 or 9-3 type season next year. We will be replacing an obvious key component with Wimbush at QB, but everything points to him being solid. We will have a new DC but we can only trend up in that category. Anything less than a "positive" 8-4 season or better will likely spell the end for BK. But if he can rally the kids, gain momentum, play consistently, continue recruiting and trend upwards, I'll be a happy Irish fan.
Any national championship team needs cards to fall their way. Nick Saban made it to a national title game on a missed convert and 2 blocked field goals in the same game vs Tennessee.
IIO...I like and agree with many of your posts, but not all, and clearly not this time. You can claim to call it like you see it, but frankly you nor any of us for that matter, have any idea what physical issues these young men fight through to get on the field, and watching pre game warm ups is hardly indicative of this. We'll just respectfully disagree.
Losing to Pitt for having guys with the same number on the field would have been miserable. We lucked out.
We were very fortunate in 2012, this year we went 1-7 in games decided on the last possession. $hit happens, both good and bad.
I have no problem agreeing to disagree with you, nor do I take any issue with your point in the first place... My experience as a collegiate football player and later, coach, has simply been that there are guys who are excellent players and then there are guys who are excellent players and who are tough as nails as well. Simply put, there are guys who you see battle through everything and grind no matter what and there are guys who can't seem to work through the pain and end up missing a lot of time... I can tell you which guys the locker room respects more, having many in a number of them.
Not saying there is anything wrong with Torii. Seems like a great kid and he's a gifted athlete. Give me TJ all day though. That kid is a gamer.
Yet another inexcusable loss by Kelly. If you know you're going to go with prevent defense with 34 seconds left, then a smart coach should take more time off the clock before scoring at the end there. With the offense ND had they knew they'd score a TD there.
Kelly is an idiot savant.
Exactly. ND was not getting in no matter what happened @ Stanford. They dropped out of the top four a few days earlier because Kelly didn't have his team ready to play at BC. Oklahoma was in a win and you're in situation with their last game. All four spots were locked in.
I have ND at about eight plays away from making the final four in 2015. These people saying one play away are in that delusional crowd.
