Thinking About the early recruiting

[Izo]

Loss of Beal and Kaindoh hurts this early in the recruiting . Must believe Kelly 's staff has the ability to recruit under the radar star high school players . Still have to get defensive line pass rushers . Almost everybody agrees on the needs on a faster defense . We did sign studs on defense in Hayes , Kareem ,J Okwara,Vaughn , Pride Jr.etc .some will contribute immediately

Looking at the current defense

DB Crawford
LB Onawualu
CB Watkins
LB Morgan
S. Tranquill
CB Luke
LB Martini
DL Cage
DL Tiassum
DL Matuska
DL Rochell
DL Blankenship
DL Dew-Treadway
DL Trumbetti
DL Tillery
DL Hayes

Also wondering how losses of Stanley , Fuller, Smith , Day , Prosise , Martin , Russel, plus Okwara , Shumate, Carlisle,Brown, Farley will affect this season . Major losses and not easily replaced . On offense ,Fuller in my opinion is a major loss especially with his ability to go deep and extend the opposition's defense . Hope we have a deep threat ,Hunter,etc to extend the field on offense .

 

[Mac034]

I agree that losing those two hurts. Landing a difference maker like Kaindoh a year after Hayes, Okwara, and Kareem could have been special down the road. There is still time. It sounds like BK and company are still on some pretty good DL. Hopefully some that can bring a pass rush.

It was fun watching the draft and seeing so many Irish players drafted. Kelly has definitely continued to stock up the talent at ND. I really think there are many good seasons ahead. Just keep recruiting the DL!!

 

[Izo]

How could I possibly forget Jarron Jones on the defensive line!

 

[Granite45]

Loss of Beal and Kaindoh hurts this early in the recruiting . Must believe Kelly 's staff has the ability to recruit under the radar star high school players . Still have to get defensive line pass rushers . Almost everybody agrees on the needs on a faster defense . We did sign studs on defense in Hayes , Kareem ,J Okwara,Vaughn , Pride Jr.etc .some will contribute immediately

Looking at the current defense

DB Crawford
LB Onawualu
CB Watkins
LB Morgan
S. Tranquill
CB Luke
LB Martini
DL Cage
DL Tiassum
DL Matuska
DL Rochell
DL Blankenship
DL Dew-Treadway
DL Trumbetti
DL Tillery
DL Hayes

.

Isn't Blankenship all but gone?

 

[perseverare]

Defensive recruiting: a problem.

 

[hoopsstar12]

Be patient. We will have a good season next year and we will land our share of big name recruits.

 

[perseverare]

^ you're kidding? the annual mantra is getting stale.

No doubt the staff is putting in every effort, but something is just not clicking with (defensive line recruits) recruits.

 

[IrishInOntario]

The problem with ND's defensive recruiting is not that it lacks studs. The problem is that ND rarely puts together a complete class of players at all 3 levels of the defense.

Last year, for example, ND killed it in the secondary, signing 7 quality DB's that fit needs at all the DB spots. The reason they had to sign 7 DB's, however, is that they screwed up the year before and got none of the safeties they desperately needed. The negatives to that are two-fold. 1. This year we're forced to rely on a true freshman as the key backup, rather than a sophomore with a year in the system. 2. It's going to be hard to recruit DB's again this year, because it's hard to spin the idea of early playing time when you took a huge number of DB's last year.

While ND got a great DB haul last year, they also got exactly what needed at defensive end, but they also struck out on the interior of their defensive line and while they got two intriguing prospects at linebacker, they missed on their 4 top targets as far as impact players go.

Skip ahead to this year... It's my belief that ND has done well with the 3 committed linebackers and I expect one more true thumper, giving ND a really nice LB class. I also think they'll land two quality interior DL, with Hinish already committed. However, now they're struggling to attract top tier DE targets to follow up the 3 excellent ones they got last year, as well as 3-4 high end DB's to compliment last year's class.

Defensive recruiting has been inconsistent, which leads to ND lacking quality depth because of transfers and reliance on freshmen for key depth....

I think it's become pretty clear what the problem is... BVG is not a good recruiter. Diaco wasn't on the road all the time either, but my general thought is that kids loved his infectious personality when they visited and wanted to play for him. So as long as Cooks, Alford, Elston and company did the leg work to get them to campus, Diaco did and excellent job once they were there.

As for Kaindoh, I'm not ready to give up here yet. It's May 1st, and he's not even a senior yet. Don't be shocked if he's back for an official visit, with his parents as well. Remember, Daelin Hayes was committed to USC and Khalid Kareem was committed to Alabama a year ago at this time.

Recruiting is a marathon guys.

 

[chaseball]

The problem with ND's defensive recruiting is not that it lacks studs..

I agreed with most of your post ... but you are understating NDs problem/lack of ability to attract high end talent on defense.

First off, I think it's important to define a 'stud'. IMO, a top 100 national player or 5.9 RR and above (high 4 star, or 5 star). These are the type of players that usually have offers from everybody in their region and are being recruited by programs with national appeal.

Also, it's important to point out who NDs competition/comparison is. It isn't all 130 FBS schools (if we compare ND to the rest of FBS, yea they are doing alright) -- but their true comparison/competition is the perennial powers competing for final 4 spots (osu, fsu, alabama, lsu, florida, usc, michigan, etc.). When that's your comparison, ND is doing terrible in terms of attracting prep studs on defense and have during the majority of the BK era.

 

[perseverare]

to be fair, the problem was developing before BK arrived.

 

[chaseball]

to be fair, the problem was developing before BK arrived.

Agreed. The issue actually goes way back to the beginning of the post Holtz era.

 

[IrishInOntario]

I agreed with most of your post ... but you are understating NDs problem/lack of ability to attract high end talent on defense.

First off, I think it's important to define a 'stud'. IMO, a top 100 national player or 5.9 RR and above (high 4 star, or 5 star). These are the type of players that usually have offers from everybody in their region and are being recruited by programs with national appeal.

Also, it's important to point out who NDs competition/comparison is. It isn't all 130 FBS schools (if we compare ND to the rest of FBS, yea they are doing alright) -- but their true comparison/competition is the perennial powers competing for final 4 spots (osu, fsu, alabama, lsu, florida, usc, michigan, etc.). When that's your comparison, ND is doing terrible in terms of attracting prep studs on defense and have during the majority of the BK era.

Fair point, but I actually don't think ND needs to have a defense comprised entirely of top 100 players in order to field a top 20 defense (all they really need to win 10+ games per year)...

But to further your point, while ND has some really nice composite top 150 recruits that would normally make key complimentary pieces to the 2016 and 2017 defences, including Isaac Rochell, Andrew Trumbetti, Asmar Bilal, Cole Luke, Shaun Crawford and Daelin Hayes, shockingly, only Max Redfield and Nyles Morgan were composite top 100 players in their respective classes.

ND doesn't need 11 top 100 players starting on their defense, but they do need more than 2!... Even if they could get that number to 4-5, with a couple more forming depth behind them, there would be no reason why this defense couldn't be better... And if there are going to be 4 top 100 players on the defense starting, 3 of them need to be in the front 7... Rushing the passer and stopping the run all starts up front.

It amazes me that ND can no longer secure 1-2 of the 50 or so top 100 players on defense each year, meanwhile, they can land 2-3 on offense, easily.

 

[perseverare]

ND needs to resonate with defensive rcruits. That has not been the case for 20+ years.

It comes down to the staff. BVG, in spite of the BK vote of confidence, does not excite current recruits. And further there does not seem to be that 1 guy on D staff that does! Then there is the play; the frequent meltdowns.

Clusterfu*%ing.

 

[BGI User 348]

I trust in BK and Coach Gilmore.........ND DL studs are coming!!!

 

[perseverare]

? you passed them on the Turnpike?

 

[chaseball]

Fair point, but I actually don't think ND needs to have a defense comprised entirely of top 100 players in order to field a top 20 defense (all they really need to win 10+ games per year)...

ND doesn't need 11 top 100 players starting on their defense, but they do need more than 2!... Even if they could get that number to 4-5, with a couple more forming depth behind them, there would be no reason why this defense couldn't be better... And if there are going to be 4 top 100 players on the defense starting, 3 of them need to be in the front 7... Rushing the passer and stopping the run all starts up front.

It amazes me that ND can no longer secure 1-2 of the 50 or so top 100 players on defense each year, meanwhile, they can land 2-3 on offense, easily.

I don't think ND needs a starting defensive 11 comprised of all top 100 talent either ... i don't know what the magic number is ... my point is that we need to be able to attract the same quality and quantity of talent/athletes as the modern perennial powers do if we ever want to neutralize the talent gap and take that next step forward as a program.

 

[BGI User 348]

? you passed them on the Turnpike?

Plenty of good RKG's here in PA!!!!!

 

[Pennick4]

Talk to me in late January.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Plenty of good RKG's here in PA!!!!!

Some quality kids in PA for sure. ND has done well there traditionally and of late. Will Fuller, Mike McGlinchey, Josh Adams, Josh Lugg, David Adams, Kurt Hinish among others. Unfortunately, there is nowhere near enough talent in PA to compete with the talent in Texas, California, Florida, Georgia, or even Ohio.... ND needs to continue to pull 2-3 of the top kids out of PA each year, but they must get more of their defensive studs out West and Ohio, south to Florida.... Think of ND's best defensive players of late....

Stephon Tuitt (Georgia)
Manti Te'o (Hawaii)
Louis Nix (Florida)
Aaron Lynch (Florida)
Isaac Rochell (Georgia)
Harrison Smith (Tennessee)
Prince Shembo (North Carolina)
Kapron Lewis-Moore (Texas)
Keivarae Russell (Washington)

Yes there are outliers such as Jaylon Smith, but the vast majority of the top defensive talent Notre Dame has produced in recent years has come from the south. A quick look at the recruiting rankings and where various top prospects are geographically abundant will tell you the same story.

 

[Telx1]

I'm of the same mind as Ara. Really hard to understand, but hope to see a sea change with Gilmore's influence. Encouraged by this year's DL commits, and anxious to see where we stand come next LOI Day. I expect this year to be a turning point for attracting at least two elite DL annually, and I think Kelly's decision to hire Gilmore will look brilliant in hindsight.

 

[twalsh]

Some quality kids in PA for sure. ND has done well there traditionally and of late. Will Fuller, Mike McGlinchey, Josh Adams, Josh Lugg, David Adams, Kurt Hinish among others. Unfortunately, there is nowhere near enough talent in PA to compete with the talent in Texas, California, Florida, Georgia, or even Ohio.... ND needs to continue to pull 2-3 of the top kids out of PA each year, but they must get more of their defensive studs out West and Ohio, south to Florida.... Think of ND's best defensive players of late....

Stephon Tuitt (Georgia)
Manti Te'o (Hawaii)
Louis Nix (Florida)
Aaron Lynch (Florida)
Isaac Rochell (Georgia)
Harrison Smith (Tennessee)
Prince Shembo (North Carolina)
Kapron Lewis-Moore (Texas)
Keivarae Russell (Washington)

Yes there are outliers such as Jaylon Smith, but the vast majority of the top defensive talent Notre Dame has produced in recent years has come from the south. A quick look at the recruiting rankings and where various top prospects are geographically abundant will tell you the same story.

Just simply from observation, with no stats, but I think the south was the first place where the most elite athletes started to focus on defense, versus offense.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Walsh,

I would have to agree. I also think their climate helps them develop their skills at an earlier age and they can participate in their craft year round.

I've always maintained that ND's recruiting strategy should be...

- Catholic School kids in Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, Michigan and PA.
- 2-4 kids from California, Washington, Arizona, Texas.
- 2-3 kids from Virginia, The Carolinas, up through New Jersey.
- 2-4 kids from Florida and Georgia.
- 2-4 kids from the more "random" states across the country.

In order of importance to ND recruiting I think at this point it goes...

1. Ohio
2. Florida
3. Pennsylvania
4. California
5. Remaining Midwest States

Everything else is just a nice bonus.

 

[perseverare]

in past week ND's staff hit the recruiting road and ND is heating up! Some real possibilities with newly formed relationships as well as renewing relations with previous targets!

Cool9, D_Master thoughts ?

 

[Duo]

Speaking of starting early............

If you take a look at the big powers (example tOSU, Bama, Clemson, FSU, etc.) they are all recruiting very young players in HS years before eligibility and in every year's class they go after big time defensive players way early in the recruiting period. While 14 and 15-year-old QB's get all the pub it's the DT's and O-linemen that make the difference. They also do something that is rare for most other schools...........switch O-linemen into D-linemen. Maybe not often but when it counts.

 

[Kelso86]

I don't think ND needs a starting defensive 11 comprised of all top 100 talent either ... i don't know what the magic number is ... my point is that we need to be able to attract the same quality and quantity of talent/athletes as the modern perennial powers do if we ever want to neutralize the talent gap and take that next step forward as a program.

Chase (or IIO) -- agree with your thought process, but -- my question then is -- How does Michigan State do it year in and out? From what I can recall, they do not appear to sign highly rated classes overall, but, damn -- their defense is normally pretty damn good year in and out (especially under Narduzzi).

 

[perseverare]

seems MSU plays the more fundamental defense, the defensive version of Woody Hays's "3 yards and a cloud of dust".
They line up and try to beat you physically. No schemes nor gimmicks.

 

[twalsh]

Chase (or IIO) -- agree with your thought process, but -- my question then is -- How does Michigan State do it year in and out? From what I can recall, they do not appear to sign highly rated classes overall, but, damn -- their defense is normally pretty damn good year in and out (especially under Narduzzi).

Does MSU fill DL needs with JUCOs? That's very common in the SEC.

 

[Bodizephax]

The Irish have plenty of studs on defense ! They will silence the Naysayers this year !

 

[Bodizephax]

seems MSU plays the more fundamental defense, the defensive version of Woody Hays's "3 yards and a cloud of dust".
They line up and try to beat you physically. No schemes nor gimmicks.

And whats your point? Notre Dame has beat them 4 out of 5. And Alabama has beat them by an average of 50 points in the last two games they played them recently.

 

[perseverare]

check out TOS CB site link!

So here is what's wrong:
they changed the web design so the Mod photo is twice the size of the prospect who is the subject of the CB!

Duh! Who gives a R-A what the predictor looks like? the focus s/b the recruit/prosoect!
See what happens when in a meeting there is noone to raise their hand and state, 'boss, that idea sucks'!

 

[Howard Hall 74]

What may begin to influence recruits to ND is the recent drafting of players in the early rounds of the NFL draft. That catches recruits' attention and over the last 3 years more and more of ND's players are being taken in the first 4 rounds. The message is ND can develop players. What was disappointing during the Weis era was so many high 4* and 5 * players came and so few were developed into 1st round or 2nd round picks. Many didn't even develop. That was terrible. Coach 8 & 4 has a solid coaching staff and with effort, recruiting may really see some solid gains.

 

[NDSMC78]

What may begin to influence recruits to ND is the recent drafting of players in the early rounds of the NFL draft. That catches recruits' attention and over the last 3 years more and more of ND's players are being taken in the first 4 rounds. The message is ND can develop players. What was disappointing during the Weis era was so many high 4* and 5 * players came and so few were developed into 1st round or 2nd round picks. Many didn't even develop. That was terrible. Coach 8 & 4 has a solid coaching staff and with effort, recruiting may really see some solid gains.

Coach 8-4 went 10-3 last year, dimwit.

 

[Howard Hall 74]

Coach 8-4 went 10-3 last year, dimwit.

That's called the "outlier" or in 8 & 4's case - abnormal. He is what he is, get over it.

 

[NDSMC78]

That's called the "outlier" or in 8 & 4's case - abnormal. He is what he is, get over it.

Only in your warped mind. The fact is that you are wrong. Again.

 

[Classic Irish]

That's called the "outlier" or in 8 & 4's case - abnormal. He is what he is, get over it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Still masquerading as an ND fan.

 

[Classic Irish]

Only in your warped mind. The fact is that you are wrong. Again.

I've suspected for some time that HowardHall74 is actually our old ND-obsessed friend Brian Davidson.

 

[Pennick4]

That's called the "outlier" or in 8 & 4's case - abnormal. He is what he is, get over it.

He just got an extension and big raise. He is a great football coach. Get a clue

 

[twalsh]

That's called the "outlier" or in 8 & 4's case - abnormal. He is what he is, get over it.

Last four years are 12, 9, 7 and 10, an average of 9 1/2 wins per season. 12 and 7 are the outliers. It's OK to be a dickhead, just try to keep your facts toward middle of the fairway.

 

[perseverare]

whatever has gone by, the problems of recent are being addressed as best they can be.

In The U.S.A. it is not legal to kidnap recruits and force them to play for your team.
ND's staff makes it's best sales pitch, emphasizing the value of education and long range future benefits.
Some kids actually value those considerations.
Some kids pretend to value those considerations.
Some kids are up front, ( 'we ain't here to go to school'). It is all about the ka-ching.

Offensively recent recruiting successes have gotten this team to a level of elite to near elite.
The work to bolster the D is so far greater than the results but no fault of the efforts.

 

[Bodizephax]

Last four years are 12, 9, 7 and 10, an average of 9 1/2 wins per season. 12 and 7 are the outliers. It's OK to be a dickhead, just try to keep your facts toward middle of the fairway.

7 wins ? Notre Dame under Coach Kelly has never had less than 8 wins in a season. I assume you are using seasons including bowls since you have 9 wins up there (That 9 win season included a bowl win)