THE COLLEGES ARE GUILTY

Patrirish

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As sin !

It was the colleges/universities, at the highest levels, that created fluff classes for the sole purpose of accommodating their academically challenged athletes.

And those classes do nothing to help prepare those athletes for a life after football !

Bob Lehmann, who I believe was a captain on the 1963 team was an engineering major.
There were no “fluff” courses when I was at ND.

When the players on a number of teams introduce themselves on TV and their majors are announced, it’s almost embarrassing.

But make no mistake, this academic facade and fraud isn’t something that can be attributed to the Athletic Departments, it’s the college’s/university’s administration that created these “fluff” courses.

Where has the NCAA been when it comes to policing institutional subversion of academic standards ?
 

NDblitz

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As sin !

It was the colleges/universities, at the highest levels, that created fluff classes for the sole purpose of accommodating their academically challenged athletes.

And those classes do nothing to help prepare those athletes for a life after football !

Bob Lehmann, who I believe was a captain on the 1963 team was an engineering major.
There were no “fluff” courses when I was at ND.

When the players on a number of teams introduce themselves on TV and their majors are announced, it’s almost embarrassing.

But make no mistake, this academic facade and fraud isn’t something that can be attributed to the Athletic Departments, it’s the college’s/university’s administration that created these “fluff” courses.

Where has the NCAA been when it comes to policing institutional subversion of academic standards ?
Fluff been going on for decades. Hell Matt Leinert took ball room dancing in 2005.
 

NDblitz

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Fluff majors like womens studies for example fill the halls full of kids on student loans and no lucrative job prospects.
 

Patrirish

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Fluff majors like womens studies for example fill the halls full of kids on student loans and no lucrative job prospects.
That’s the most important point, the colleges/universities are failing to prepare these kids for life after college, and it’s not just the scholarship athletes.

This is just one reason why Notre Dame should never compromise its academic standards !
 

TheSodFather

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Notre Dame fans are the only ones who care what the players are going to school for. We are the ones guilty of clinging onto this dogmatic notion.

Fact of the matter most of the star players can make 6 figures the rest of their life on appearance fees and autograph sessions.
 

NDinNJ

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As sin !

It was the colleges/universities, at the highest levels, that created fluff classes for the sole purpose of accommodating their academically challenged athletes.

And those classes do nothing to help prepare those athletes for a life after football !

Bob Lehmann, who I believe was a captain on the 1963 team was an engineering major.
There were no “fluff” courses when I was at ND.

When the players on a number of teams introduce themselves on TV and their majors are announced, it’s almost embarrassing.

But make no mistake, this academic facade and fraud isn’t something that can be attributed to the Athletic Departments, it’s the college’s/university’s administration that created these “fluff” courses.

Where has the NCAA been when it comes to policing institutional subversion of academic standards ?
I remember growing up as a kid, watching college football and when the announcers went through the starting offenses and defenses they would show their majors. Sad what's become of college football.
 
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TheSodFather

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I remember growing up as a kid, watching college football and when the announcers went through the starting offenses and defenses they would show their majors. Sad what's become of college football.
You mean like someone majoring in “Letters and Numbers ”?
 
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wi_hoosier

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As sin !

It was the colleges/universities, at the highest levels, that created fluff classes for the sole purpose of accommodating their academically challenged athletes.

And those classes do nothing to help prepare those athletes for a life after football !

Bob Lehmann, who I believe was a captain on the 1963 team was an engineering major.
There were no “fluff” courses when I was at ND.

When the players on a number of teams introduce themselves on TV and their majors are announced, it’s almost embarrassing.

But make no mistake, this academic facade and fraud isn’t something that can be attributed to the Athletic Departments, it’s the college’s/university’s administration that created these “fluff” courses.

Where has the NCAA been when it comes to policing institutional subversion of academic standards ?
The NCAA has no say in what classes are offered by an institution.
 

sjb75

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Notre Dame fans are the only ones who care what the players are going to school for. We are the ones guilty of clinging onto this dogmatic notion.

Fact of the matter most of the star players can make 6 figures the rest of their life on appearance fees and autograph sessions.
Going to school? There are many star players that never attend a class.
 

NDblitz

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That’s the most important point, the colleges/universities are failing to prepare these kids for life after college, and it’s not just the scholarship athletes.

This is just one reason why Notre Dame should never compromise its academic standards !
I agree but There’s a difference between fluff majors and adding majors that are easier to get into. Does ND, for instance have Human performance or sports administration as major for example?
 

IrishHerb

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I agree but There’s a difference between fluff majors and adding majors that are easier to get into. Does ND, for instance have Human performance or sports administration as major for example?
No. As of now, no. ND doesn't have a PE department, so no sports related majors.

According to some people I know at ND, what appears to be the "soft" major at ND nowadays is Business Administration. Notice a very large percent of our varsity athletes, both men and women, are Bus admin majors.
 

ivan brunetti

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No. As of now, no. ND doesn't have a PE department, so no sports related majors.

According to some people I know at ND, what appears to be the "soft" major at ND nowadays is Business Administration. Notice a very large percent of our varsity athletes, both men and women, are Bus admin majors.

I thought specifically it was "Marketing". That might fall under BA.
 

Patrirish

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The NCAA has no say in what classes are offered by an institution.
That’s not quite accurate.

Phantom or non-attended classes can come under the NCAA’s jurisdiction
 
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bcnd

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95% is fluff anyways

learning how to manage time, understand team dynamics, and deal with failure is why the vast majority of college athletes do well in life
 

Patrirish

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Notre Dame fans are the only ones who care what the players are going to school for. We are the ones guilty of clinging onto this dogmatic notion.

Fact of the matter most of the star players can make 6 figures the rest of their life on appearance fees and autograph sessions.
There are 105 players on a roster, how many make it to the NFL ?

2 ?
3 ?
5 ?

So what about the other 100 plus players, should we ignore and abandon our obligation to educate and prepare them for life after college ?

You should also know that the great majority of NFL players are broke within 5 years of retiring, so your portrayal of their lifetime earnings is out of touch with reality, as is your perspective on a college/university’s obligation to educate its student athletes !
 

Patrirish

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I agree but There’s a difference between fluff majors and adding majors that are easier to get into. Does ND, for instance have Human performance or sports administration as major for example?
I can’t speak from a position of “experience”, today, but when I attended ND there were NO soft courses like the ones you refer to !
 

Notre Dame du Lac

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As sin !

It was the colleges/universities, at the highest levels, that created fluff classes for the sole purpose of accommodating their academically challenged athletes.

And those classes do nothing to help prepare those athletes for a life after football !

Bob Lehmann, who I believe was a captain on the 1963 team was an engineering major.
There were no “fluff” courses when I was at ND.

When the players on a number of teams introduce themselves on TV and their majors are announced, it’s almost embarrassing.

But make no mistake, this academic facade and fraud isn’t something that can be attributed to the Athletic Departments, it’s the college’s/university’s administration that created these “fluff” courses.

Where has the NCAA been when it comes to policing institutional subversion of academic standards ?
 
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NDblitz

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I can’t speak from a position of “experience”, today, but when I attended ND there were NO soft courses like the ones you refer toI di

Pat. Congrats! You are famous. But on a side note I'm not suggesting ND add "fluff" classes. I'm saying they can create a program or major (s) that still lend credibility to the University but maybe don't have the same level of rigor as most/all majors at ND.
 

Notre Dame du Lac

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Pat. Congrats! You are famous. But on a side note I'm not suggesting ND add "fluff" classes. I'm saying they can create a program or major (s) that still lend credibility to the University but maybe don't have the same level of rigor as most/all majors at ND.
Not as famous as his alleged smoke show Dallas Cowboys cheerleader GF
 

Notre Dame du Lac

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By the way, for what it's worth, I said a prayer for ya Pat. Cancer blows and I hate hearing stuff like that.
 

Patrirish

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Not as famous as his alleged smoke show Dallas Cowboys cheerleader GF
Well, I’m about to send a photo of us at an NFL game yesterday to ND inNJ.

And, she was a San Diego Charger cheerleader, not a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader

She’s very pretty and very nice.
 
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Patrirish

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By the way, for what it's worth, I said a prayer for ya Pat. Cancer blows and I hate hearing stuff like that.
Thanks, but it’s the hand that I’ve been dealt and I have to deal with it.
Wednesday I go in for a procedure and they’ll tell me what my prognosis is, going forward
 

beachcardinal

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Fluff been going on for decades. Hell Matt Leinert took ball room dancing in 2005.
Not the best example. Matt graduated with his degree. The NCAA requires that most of the classes taken advance a student towards a recognized degree. Almost all colleges, if not all, allow electives in addition to the solid classes. My guess is even Notre Dame has dance classes available.

My daughter was in that class with Matt and she graduated with a neuroscience degree with honors.
 

echowaker

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There are 105 players on a roster, how many make it to the NFL ?

2 ?
3 ?
5 ?

So what about the other 100 plus players, should we ignore and abandon our obligation to educate and prepare them for life after college ?

You should also know that the great majority of NFL players are broke within 5 years of retiring, so your portrayal of their lifetime earnings is out of touch with reality, as is your perspective on a college/university’s obligation to educate its student athletes !
" Great majority " ? Have any verified data to support that claim ? How long did they play ? Did they qualify for a pension ? Such a wide encompassing declaration should come with some sort of credible supporting evidence no ?
 

bcnd

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I can’t speak from a position of “experience”, today, but when I attended ND there were NO soft courses like the ones you refer to !
there are soft courses at every school not named CalTech imo
 

beachcardinal

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there are soft courses at every school not named CalTech imo
Schools require a certain amount of units inside a field to obtain a degree in that field. In addition, they offer a number of elective courses to meet student interest which are not related to the student field of study. You can't get a degree by only talking soft course. In addition, the NCAA requires athletes to take a certain number of unti each semister toward a school major. Other classes may be taken outside the major by the athlete, just like other students The key way to look at schools is the number of athletes that graduate.

Since ND is excellent when measured by the standard, there is no reason to make up other stuff.
 
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wi_hoosier

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That’s not quite accurate.

Phantom or non-attended classes can come under the NCAA’s jurisdiction

In the case of UNC, the NCAA stated:

It could not punish the university or its athletics program because the “paper” classes were not available exclusively to athletes. Other students at North Carolina had access to the fraudulent classes, too.

Furthermore, the N.C.A.A. declared that their organization is not designed to judge the legitimacy of individual institutions’ academic programs.

Greg Sankey, commissioner of the Southeastern Conference and leader of infractions panel on the UNC paper classes scandal, said in a statement,
“NCAA policy is clear. The NCAA defers to its member schools to determine whether academic fraud occurred and, ultimately, the panel is bound to making decisions within the rules set by the membership."
 

NDinNJ

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Thanks, but it’s the hand that I’ve been dealt and I have to deal with it.
Wednesday I go in for a procedure and they’ll tell me what my prognosis is, going forward
I'm praying for your full recovery Pat.
 

Patrirish

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" Great majority " ? Have any verified data to support that claim ? How long did they play ? Did they qualify for a pension ? Such a wide encompassing declaration should come with some sort of credible supporting evidence no ?
Sports Illustrated reported that 4 out of 5 NFL players file for bankruptcy or suffer severe financial distress within 2 years of retirement.
There was a documentary, it might have been a 30 for 30 dealing with and confirming the same issue.

Would you consider 4 out of 5 to be the “great majority”


I always thought that 80 % would qualify as the great majority.

What do you think ?

The majority is 51 %

So what do you think about 60 % ?

How about 70 %. ?

80 %. ?
 
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Patrirish

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In the case of UNC, the NCAA stated:

It could not punish the university or its athletics program because the “paper” classes were not available exclusively to athletes. Other students at North Carolina had access to the fraudulent classes, too.

Furthermore, the N.C.A.A. declared that their organization is not designed to judge the legitimacy of individual institutions’ academic programs.

Greg Sankey, commissioner of the Southeastern Conference and leader of infractions panel on the UNC paper classes scandal, said in a statement,
“NCAA policy is clear. The NCAA defers to its member schools to determine whether academic fraud occurred and, ultimately, the panel is bound to making decisions within the rules set by the membership."
“Other students” is a significant qualifier.

A “phantom“ or “non-attendance” class would certainly be subject to NCAA oversight, especially since “other students“ wouldn’t apply
 

Patrirish

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Schools require a certain amount of units inside a field to obtain a degree in that field. In addition, they offer a number of elective courses to meet student interest which are not related to the student field of study. You can't get a degree by only talking soft course. In addition, the NCAA requires athletes to take a certain number of unti each semister toward a school major. Other classes may be taken outside the major by the athlete, just like other students The key way to look at schools is the number of athletes that graduate.

Since ND is excellent when measured by the standard, there is no reason to make up other stuff.
The problem is “The Field”

When you create a soft or fraudulent “field” every course in that “field“ is soft or fraudulent.

What is the institutional responsibility/obligation of colleges/universities ?
Is it to graduate the student in the context of preparing the student for life after graduation ?

If so, then the creation of soft courses is an abrogation of their responsibilty/obligation.

Then, you have to ask yourself, what was their motivation for creating soft courses ?

What was their intent in creating those courses ?

WhIch segment of their student population were they trying to benefit ?
 

beachcardinal

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The problem is “The Field”

When you create a soft or fraudulent “field” every course in that “field“ is soft or fraudulent.

What is the institutional responsibility/obligation of colleges/universities ?
Is it to graduate the student in the context of preparing the student for life after graduation ?

If so, then the creation of soft courses is an abrogation of their responsibilty/obligation.

Then, you have to ask yourself, what was their motivation for creating soft courses ?

What was their intent in creating those courses ?

WhIch segment of their student population were they trying to benefit ?
Each school has both core requirements and requirements for a particular degree. To graduate students have to comply with both. They also offer room for elective that might be of interest outside of one's major. For example. I took a film studies class and a hiking class. The intent is to allow the students opportunities outside of their field. There is nothing wrong with it, unless you see school soley from the perspective of a football fan.
 

Patrirish

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Each school has both core requirements and requirements for a particular degree. To graduate students have to comply with both. They also offer room for elective that might be of interest outside of one's major. For example. I took a film studies class and a hiking class. The intent is to allow the students opportunities outside of their field. There is nothing wrong with it, unless you see school soley from the perspective of a football fan.
There’s a significant difference between “elective” classes and “required” classes in your field/major..

When required courses are “soft”, therein lies the problem !