Teams and coaches that punch above their weight

[Shulkswagen]

BK has stabilized ND football ... recruiting too 10 classes and navigated through two nail biting undefeated seasons. Despite all that there is a blah feeling about state of the program ... lacks energy and confidence that the arrow is still pointing up. BK teams play good teams close but never show up bigger and better than they are vs elite opponents ... which was a regular occurrence for Holtz teams (Miami 88, Colorado 89, Florida 92, FSU 93) ... the whole nation including our fans expect a loss when we play a top 5 team.

who are the coaches and teams that seem to show up big in these spots ... and get their team to play above their talent level?

example Pitt And Narduzzi have two wins over top 5 teams (Clemson amd Miami) amd two near misses (Notre Dame amd Penn State) in games they had no business being competitive in.

 

[d1042]

well, not sure if correct but their immediate thought was Dantonio

 

[ivan brunetti]

well, not sure if correct but their immediate thought was Dantonio

He has cooled down a bit. Since 2015, Sparty is 15-18 in Big Ten play.

 

[Catholicfan95]

So we want to criticize the consistent winning of BK over the last couple of seasons (10 wins at least a year would be my mark of consistent winning) by saying the team does not win against top teams therefore they unperformed. Okay fair enough, I may disagree with what that represents in regards to success,but I see the stock in that argument and wish I we would be able to win in those bigger spots. But the torch holder in your argument is Pitt And Narduzzi?! So you are saying you will praise a team and coach that has played above their talent level 4 times out of 60 games (4 games you cited over the time span Pat has been at Pitt, 5 years) and have happened to pull off the upset, while that same team and coach has not won a bowl game, has not won 9 games in a season, has not had a recruiting class in the top 25 (maybe top 40) and has not sold out Heinz Field for any other opponents than ND, Penn State and WVU? That is simply befuddling to me.

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

I’ve liked BK. He will always have a good reputation as a good coach at ND. If we want a championship, we need to pay $10 mill, change admissions, and get a home run hire. BK is not to blame for ND’s mediocrity. It’s a player and admissions problem. Does anyone actually think Saban is a better coach than BK!? BK will never win a title at ND. I get sick of ND saying their goal is a championship every year when they aren’t even competitive with top 10 teams. Shoot for the moon, but also set goals you’re willing to achieve at all costs or don’t set them at all.

I am going to guess ND won’t change their ways, but who am I.

 

[Shulkswagen]

So we want to criticize the consistent winning of BK over the last couple of seasons (10 wins at least a year would be my mark of consistent winning) by saying the team does not win against top teams therefore they unperformed. Okay fair enough, I may disagree with what that represents in regards to success,but I see the stock in that argument and wish I we would be able to win in those bigger spots. But the torch holder in your argument is Pitt And Narduzzi?! So you are saying you will praise a team and coach that has played above their talent level 4 times out of 60 games (4 games you cited over the time span Pat has been at Pitt, 5 years) and have happened to pull off the upset, while that same team and coach has not won a bowl game, has not won 9 games in a season, has not had a recruiting class in the top 25 (maybe top 40) and has not sold out Heinz Field for any other opponents than ND, Penn State and WVU? That is simply befuddling to me.

No you completely missed the point which is because we are trading posts rather than having a conversation. Brian Kelly has stabilized the program, improved the talent and delivered two undefeated seasons. That’s great and I would not trade that for Pitt’s last 5 seasons nor did I say that. Pitt has less talent, putting up Respectable seasons and somehow getting coached up to compete with the best teams in the country. In similar games ND has been blown out by halftime. I am asking which coaches and programs seem to punch above their weight in big games ... it doesn’t mean they are better programs overall. Comprenez?

 

[Shulkswagen]

I’ve liked BK. He will always have a good reputation as a good coach at ND. If we want a championship, we need to pay $10 mill, change admissions, and get a home run hire. BK is not to blame for ND’s mediocrity. It’s a player and admissions problem. Does anyone actually think Saban is a better coach than BK!? BK will never win a title at ND. I get sick of ND saying their goal is a championship every year when they aren’t even competitive with top 10 teams. Shoot for the moon, but also set goals you’re willing to achieve at all costs or don’t set them at all.

I am going to guess ND won’t change their ways, but who am I.

I think you changed the subject ... and made this about defending BK ... not the question I asked.

And yes Saban is at a different level than BK ... not even close. He might be the best coach ever ... look at what he’s achieved ... who has ever achieved anything remotely close?

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

I think you changed the subject ... and made this about defending BK ... not the question I asked.

And yes Saban is at a different level than BK ... not even close. He might be the best coach ever ... look at what he’s achieved ... who has ever achieved anything remotely close?

He did it at Bama. I don’t think many good coaches would have trouble doing what he’s done at Bama. I give more credit to a coach winning without talent than a coach winning with all the talent. If BK coached at Bama he’d have some titles. I think Saban is a great coach, but I bet there are 20 coaches in the nation that could’ve done it just as well as Saban if they were Bama’s coach. Of course you can disagree, but nobody can prove it either way.

I actually felt like I was agreeing with you about BK. I just happened to go on a rant about expectations. I believe it is silly to expect national titles but not do the things necessary to achieve them. I find it odd that ND acts as of it is expecting to win a national title every year even though they haven’t come close since the early 90’s. 2012 and 2019 were not close. We won’t join a conference because we are so good and expect to win it all, yet we don’t pay more than UM for a coach and we don’t let in the best athletes.

 

[Shulkswagen]

He did it at Bama. I don’t think many good coaches would have trouble doing what he’s done at Bama. I give more credit to a coach winning without talent than a coach winning with all the talent. If BK coached at Bama he’d have some titles. I think Saban is a great coach, but I bet there are 20 coaches in the nation that could’ve done it just as well as Saban if they were Bama’s coach. Of course you can disagree, but nobody can prove it either way.

Bama won once in 30 years before Saban ... then Saban arrives builds a dynasty and suddenly it’s easy to win at Bama? 5 titles in 9 years will never be equaled. Oh and he also won at LSU.

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

Bama won once in 30 years before Saban ... then Saban arrives builds a dynasty and suddenly it’s easy to win at Bama? 5 titles in 9 years will never be equaled. Oh and he also won at LSU.

I never said he wasn’t great. But I believe there are 10 coaches that could’ve done it too. BK made it to the title game with a jv team compared to Bama.

 

[Shulkswagen]

I never said he wasn’t great. But I believe there are 10 coaches that could’ve done it too. BK made it to the title game with a jv team compared to Bama.

Sorry mate this no longer deserves a response ... it’s like I’m discussing quantum physics with a 1st grader. You go ahead and think that.

 

[SIhoosier26]

Does anyone actually think Saban is a better coach than BK!?

Anyone with a brain.

 

[NDinNJ]

I’ve liked BK. He will always have a good reputation as a good coach at ND. If we want a championship, we need to pay $10 mill, change admissions, and get a home run hire. BK is not to blame for ND’s mediocrity. It’s a player and admissions problem. Does anyone actually think Saban is a better coach than BK!? BK will never win a title at ND. I get sick of ND saying their goal is a championship every year when they aren’t even competitive with top 10 teams. Shoot for the moon, but also set goals you’re willing to achieve at all costs or don’t set them at all.

I am going to guess ND won’t change their ways, but who am I.

Enough with the “academic restrictions” excuse. It’s nonsense.
All you have to do is compare recruiting rankings between ND and Clemson from 2010 through 2018. Notre Dame has actually recruited slightly better than Clemson during this period. Dabo and Clemson have 2 titles and are now consistently a top tier team whereas BK gets embarrassed consistently against top tier teams. It’s coaching.

 

[tbonesays]

Enough with the “academic restrictions” excuse. It’s nonsense.
All you have to do is compare recruiting rankings between ND and Clemson from 2010 through 2018. Notre Dame has actually recruited slightly better than Clemson during this period. Dabo and Clemson have 2 titles and are now consistently a top tier team whereas BK gets embarrassed consistently against top tier teams. It’s coaching.

The academic restrictions don't end with the acceptance letter. ND players have less time and energy to spend on football because they have to take a lot of real classes.

btw do athletes still have to take 5 normal three credit courses during the season?

 

[Golson5]

The academic restrictions don't end with the acceptance letter. ND players have less time and energy to spend on football because they have to take a lot of real classes.

btw do athletes still have to take 5 normal three credit courses during the season?

This is the most important factor people brush off when this topic comes up. If people don't want to buy into we can't get this player or that player because of academic restrictions, fine. But the key is once they get to school. Our players take real classes. Real courses. That take up hours of time. Now what if our guys had that extra time for film, lifting, practice, rest. It's a major factor

 

[Catholicfan95]

No you completely missed the point which is because we are trading posts rather than having a conversation. Brian Kelly has stabilized the program, improved the talent and delivered two undefeated seasons. That’s great and I would not trade that for Pitt’s last 5 seasons nor did I say that. Pitt has less talent, putting up Respectable seasons and somehow getting coached up to compete with the best teams in the country. In similar games ND has been blown out by halftime. I am asking which coaches and programs seem to punch above their weight in big games ... it doesn’t mean they are better programs overall. Comprenez?

"because we are trading posts rather than having a conversation" I responded once to your OP, so how are we not having a conversation? Am I not being civil?

 

[Shulkswagen]

"because we are trading posts rather than having a conversation" I responded once to your OP, so how are we not having a conversation? Am I not being civil?

Of course you are being civil ... we are just not really speaking about the same thing ... writing messages back and forth is not the same as sitting across from each other and talking that’s all I’m saying bro ... it’s all good.

 

[tbonesays]

"because we are trading posts rather than having a conversation" I responded once to your OP, so how are we not having a conversation? Am I not being civil?

That's like every family holiday.

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

Sorry mate this no longer deserves a response ... it’s like I’m discussing quantum physics with a 1st grader. You go ahead and think that.

Whatever you need to tell yourself. I think your misunderstanding that Alabama has inherent advantages over other programs, which in turn is advantageous for their coaches is too high level for you to comprehend.

 

[d1042]

Whatever you need to tell yourself. I think your misunderstanding that Alabama has inherent advantages over other programs, which in turn is advantageous for their coaches is too high level for you to comprehend.

Alabama has created advantage by creating an organizational structure to rival a good size successful corporation.

 

[Shulkswagen]

Whatever you need to tell yourself. I think your misunderstanding that Alabama has inherent advantages over other programs, which in turn is advantageous for their coaches is too high level for you to comprehend.

You are right, success begets success ... they won once in 30 years before Saban so clearly he was the secret sauce and now he benefits from his own good deeds. When he leaves, I doubt the next 2 or 3 coaches win 5 championships each ... Pete Carroll built a powerhouse and it didn’t take long to crumble when handed over, same with Jimmy Johnson and Miami. There are 20 Alabama type blue blood programs but only Sabans has won 5 championships in 9 years. If you think that 10 other coaches would have had the same success then why haven’t they. That’s what I understand. It’s all good if you disagree. We will find out after Saban retires and a new coach is in place for a few years if Saban was any good or if he was just riding the Alabama inherent advantages, whatever you think those actually are.

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

You are right, success begets success ... they won once in 30 years before Saban so clearly he was the secret sauce and now he benefits from his own good deeds. When he leaves, I doubt the next 2 or 3 coaches win 5 championships each ... Pete Carroll built a powerhouse and it didn’t take long to crumble when handed over, same with Jimmy Johnson and Miami. There are 20 Alabama type blue blood programs but only Sabans has won 5 championships in 9 years. If you think that 10 other coaches would have had the same success then why haven’t they. That’s what I understand. It’s all good if you disagree. We will find out after Saban retires and a new coach is in place for a few years if Saban was any good or if he was just riding the Alabama inherent advantages, whatever you think those actually are.

If it’s okay to disagree then I don’t think insulting someone you disagree with is the proper way to show that.

 

[Shulkswagen]

Agreed my friend. It’s all good we are just discussing college football. No offense.

 

[NDinNJ]

This is the most important factor people brush off when this topic comes up. If people don't want to buy into we can't get this player or that player because of academic restrictions, fine. But the key is once they get to school. Our players take real classes. Real courses. That take up hours of time. Now what if our guys had that extra time for film, lifting, practice, rest. It's a major factor

This is still a BS excuse. Are you saying when Leahy, Ara, Devine, and Holtz coached, those players didn’t take real classes? Complete Nonsense!

 

[Golson5]

This is still a BS excuse. Are you saying when Leahy, Ara, Devine, and Holtz coached, those players didn’t take real classes? Complete Nonsense!

We're living in a different time, different world from those days. Talent was more up north, unlimited scholarships, we were getting whoever we wanted. Its a different time now. Talent is in the south. Does a top 50 player want to come up north and take real classes and courses and put in WORK or do they want to do bare minimum and focus more on football. Most kids want the path to least resistance to get to the NFL. Different world.

 

[NDinNJ]

We're living in a different time, different world from those days. Talent was more up north, unlimited scholarships, we were getting whoever we wanted. Its a different time now. Talent is in the south. Does a top 50 player want to come up north and take real classes and courses and put in WORK or do they want to do bare minimum and focus more on football. Most kids want the path to least resistance to get to the NFL. Different world.

Again you are making excuses for a 2nd tier coach. Bring in the right coach with the right system and ND will be a top 5 team consistently regardless of the so-called “academic restrictions” Again, Clemson had poorer recruiting classes than Notre Dame from 2010 thru 2018, meaning ND had BETTER quality players coming out of High School.
Clemson managed to win 2 titles in that span and is a constant presence in the top 5. Don’t tell me that it’s the excuses you mention. It comes down to coaching and player development. While other top programs have QB’s that make huge strides year to year, ND’s QB’s have consistently gotten worse year to year. That’s not the academics, the player, the course load, etc. That’s the coaching.

I guess Minnesota has better players too, oh and I’m sure their players don’t take “real classes” either as they are pummeling a Penn State team with 2-3 star recruits.

 

[valianted25]

As a fan, this is what I expected out of Kelly as Notre Dame's football coach:

Fielding strong teams with that underdog warrior ethos in their play.

Fire in the belly, beyond the Xs and Os.

From the 2016 Michigan State game to the 2019 Michigan game I was leery about the lack of fire from Kelly. Now it is painfully clear that he's not an elite coach.

When the plans are dug up, you just go in the hole? Makes it tough to sustain motivation for achievement.

The accumulation of wins over fair-to-middling programs does not negate the big game losses. Especially with stated playoff aspirations.

How good does it really sound to compare margin of losses between 2 different levels of coaching success?

Those kinds of fallacious arguments would not be seriously entertained if Kelly acheived big wins over Saban, Urban, Dabo and others.

Now I see why Fleck deserves some love. . .A big game win.

 

[tbonesays]

This is still a BS excuse. Are you saying when Leahy, Ara, Devine, and Holtz coached, those players didn’t take real classes? Complete Nonsense!

I bet the total number of hours spent on football per day was a lot lower in the 20th Century

 

[Shulkswagen]

As a fan, this is what I expected out of Kelly as Notre Dame's football coach:

Fielding strong teams with that underdog warrior ethos in their play.

Fire in the belly, beyond the Xs and Os.

From the 2016 Michigan State game to the 2019 Michigan game I was leery about the lack of fire from Kelly. Now it is painfully clear that he's not an elite coach.

When the plans are dug up, you just go in the hole? Makes it tough to sustain motivation for achievement.

The accumulation of wins over fair-to-middling programs does not negate the big game losses. Especially with stated playoff aspirations.

How good does it really sound to compare margin of losses between 2 different levels of coaching success?

Those kinds of fallacious arguments would not be seriously entertained if Kelly acheived big wins over Saban, Urban, Dabo and others.

Now I see why Fleck deserves some love. . .A big game win.

Game was going lopsided on Alabama yet somehow despite being pushed around by LSU they are down 6 in the 4th quarter with a legit chance to win.
Compare that to the many blowouts suffered under Kelly where we go from bad to finished in a flash.

 

[ivan brunetti]

Game was going lopsided on Alabama yet somehow despite being pushed around by LSU they are down 6 in the 4th quarter with a legit chance to win.
Compare that to the many blowouts suffered under Kelly where we go from bad to finished in a flash.

Kelly had ND within striking distance vs Georgia in the 4th. And many would argue that Georgia's talent over ND is greater than LSU's talent over Bama.

 

[BGI User 1596]

Kelly had ND within striking distance vs Georgia in the 4th. And many would argue that Georgia's talent over ND is greater than LSU's talent over Bama.

The same Georgia who lost to South Carolina who just lost to Appy State!

 

[twalsh]

The academic restrictions don't end with the acceptance letter. ND players have less time and energy to spend on football because they have to take a lot of real classes.

btw do athletes still have to take 5 normal three credit courses during the season?

With summer credits I think players could possibly get away with 12 hours in the fall, but most continue to take 15 and try to stay on the graduate early schedule. It's kind of reflective of the kind of kids and parents that are attracted to ND.

 

[ivan brunetti]

The same Georgia who lost to South Carolina who just lost to Appy State!

South Carolina beating Georgia is a notable upset. Appy State beating South Carolina this season, aside from SEC pride, is not really an upset.

 

[Catholicfan95]

South Carolina beating Georgia is a notable upset. Appy State beating South Carolina this season, aside from SEC pride, is not really an upset.

How would those not be upsets?

 

[ivan brunetti]

How would those not be upsets?

A bad South Carolina team vs a good Appy State is not much of an upset. The line opened at something like SC -2.5, and then heavy betting on the Cocks pushed it to SC -6. Gamecock fans who bet were thinking of how the team looked vs Georgia instead of how they have looked in general this season.

 

[Catholicfan95]

A bad South Carolina team vs a good Appy State is not much of an upset. The line opened at something like SC -2.5, and then heavy betting on the Cocks pushed it to SC -6. Gamecock fans who bet were thinking of how the team looked vs Georgia instead of how they have looked in general this season.

Okay, I miss read what you said initially.

 

[tbonesays]

How would those not be upsets?

SCe didn't want to be there.

 

[GoNavy81]

When I think of Bama, I think “great football team”.
When I think of Notre Dame, I think “great university”.

Which is better?

 

[TDIrish27]

Again you are making excuses for a 2nd tier coach. Bring in the right coach with the right system and ND will be a top 5 team consistently regardless of the so-called “academic restrictions” Again, Clemson had poorer recruiting classes than Notre Dame from 2010 thru 2018, meaning ND had BETTER quality players coming out of High School.
Clemson managed to win 2 titles in that span and is a constant presence in the top 5. Don’t tell me that it’s the excuses you mention. It comes down to coaching and player development. While other top programs have QB’s that make huge strides year to year, ND’s QB’s have consistently gotten worse year to year. That’s not the academics, the player, the course load, etc. That’s the coaching.

I guess Minnesota has better players too, oh and I’m sure their players don’t take “real classes” either as they are pummeling a Penn State team with 2-3 star recruits.

Prior to Saturday please take a look at the schedule Minny played

Then take a gander at Clemson's

Please

 

[Shulkswagen]

Kelly had ND within striking distance vs Georgia in the 4th. And many would argue that Georgia's talent over ND is greater than LSU's talent over Bama.

This is a good point and we also have the 24-22 loss to Clemson in 2015 where we were a yard from OT when we were getting run out of the building in the first 20 minutes (though the rain may have helped keep Clemson from pulling away). The number of blowouts is disturbing though.