Riley Leonard before Notre Dame...

[88ND]

Do you know what these numbers mean?
44
40
48
54
55
45
64
53

Looking at Riley's healthy 2022 season these numbers are alarming...

His ranking among all QB's In 2022

#44 in completion %
#40 in passing yardage
#48 in touchdown passes
#54 in yards per attempt
#55 in touchdown percentage
#45 in adjusted yards per attempt
#64 in yards per catch
#53 in yards per game...

And possibly the worst one...
#48 in QB rating

I say again if Riley is playing QB for The Citadel he's doing OK.

The problem is he's playing for us and
this is NOT what we need.

Most QB's that are decent have a stat or two throwing the ball in the top 20 even if some others stats are in the 40/50 ranking area.

He's nowhere near that in any passing stat.

I guarantee you and would bet anyone that Angeli would crack the top 30 in at least one of the above stats and probably gets in the top 30 in a few categories.

If we get all punch drunk over a transfer QB with these numbers then that warrants immediate dismissal on many fronts of the head coach.

We have QB's on the roster that would do better than this.

Oh well...

maybe in 2028 we'll get this QB thing figured out.
Don't hold your breath

 

[HuddleBurger]

This is the problem with Freeman himself. The empirical numbers and data don't add up when you research his record, stats, etc. I think we all knew he was a long shot when he was hired, but he just FEELS like the right guy for the job with his enthusiasm and love for ND. So you have to place your trust into wishful thinking, that somehow that will translate into a great head coach.

 

[BGI User 1596]

This is the problem with Freeman himself. The empirical numbers and data don't add up when you research his record, stats, etc. I think we all knew he was a long shot when he was hired, but he just FEELS like the right guy for the job with his enthusiasm and love for ND. So you have to place your trust into wishful thinking, that somehow that will translate into a great head coach.

Faith based vs. Fact based!

 

[NDinNJ]

Do you know what these numbers mean?
44
40
48
54
55
45
64
53

Looking at Riley's healthy 2022 season these numbers are alarming...

His ranking among all QB's In 2022

#44 in completion %
#40 in passing yardage
#48 in touchdown passes
#54 in yards per attempt
#55 in touchdown percentage
#45 in adjusted yards per attempt
#64 in yards per catch
#53 in yards per game...

And possibly the worst one...
#48 in QB rating

I say again if Riley is playing QB for The Citadel he's doing OK.

The problem is he's playing for us and
this is NOT what we need.

Most QB's that are decent have a stat or two throwing the ball in the top 20 even if some others stats are in the 40/50 ranking area.

He's nowhere near that in any passing stat.

I guarantee you and would bet anyone that Angeli would crack the top 30 in at least one of the above stats and probably gets in the top 30 in a few categories.

If we get all punch drunk over a transfer QB with these numbers then that warrants immediate dismissal on many fronts of the head coach.

We have QB's on the roster that would do better than this.

Oh well...

maybe in 2028 we'll get this QB thing figured out.
Don't hold your breath

The naysayers will tell you, he just was playing for a crappy team that's why his numbers are this bad.

 

[FightingIrish44]

The naysayers will tell you, he just was playing for a crappy team that's why his numbers are this bad.

Are his numbers bad? He had basically the same yards in 2022 as Caleb Williams did in 2023. Is he as good as Williams because his yards are the same? Obviously not.

Statistics are nice but don’t tell the whole story. Just looking at his completion percentage: He’s ranked 44 in 2022. Out of how many QB’s? There are 134 teams so he’s at least 44/134 which is good for top 33%. Without any context, I’d probably take that. More than 134 QB’s obviously played so does that stat include all QB’s or just starters or just guys with 100 passes? What if he’s 44 out of 188? Now that’s top 24%. With no context I’d take that.

I could use Denbrock’s #1 offense in 2023 to argue that he’s overrated (and I do think he’s overrated but I’m still happy he’s here.)

Stats are overrated. He was definitely the MVP of that Duke team. Maybe ND goes 12-0 if he comes to ND in 2023? That’s very realistic.

 

[mbd11]

He did have two stats that were highly-ranked for QBs in 2022: 699 yds rushing and 13 TDs rushing. Those ranked 5th and 2nd in the country for QBs that year.

 

[88ND]

Are his numbers bad? He had basically the same yards in 2022 as Caleb Williams did in 2023. Is he as good as Williams because his yards are the same? Obviously not.

Statistics are nice but don’t tell the whole story. Just looking at his completion percentage: He’s ranked 44 in 2022. Out of how many QB’s? There are 134 teams so he’s at least 44/134 which is good for top 33%. Without any context, I’d probably take that. More than 134 QB’s obviously played so does that stat include all QB’s or just starters or just guys with 100 passes? What if he’s 44 out of 188? Now that’s top 24%. With no context I’d take that.

I could use Denbrock’s #1 offense in 2023 to argue that he’s overrated (and I do think he’s overrated but I’m still happy he’s here.)

Stats are overrated. He was definitely the MVP of that Duke team. Maybe ND goes 12-0 if he comes to ND in 2023? That’s very realistic.

WTH are you talking about?
In 2022 Riley had 2967 yards
In 2023 Williams had 3633


You obviously love Riley and that's ok but certainly says something about what you're seeing versus reality.

CFB welcomes all fans and Riley needs your support

 

[NDinNJ]

Are his numbers bad? He had basically the same yards in 2022 as Caleb Williams did in 2023. Is he as good as Williams because his yards are the same? Obviously not.

Statistics are nice but don’t tell the whole story. Just looking at his completion percentage: He’s ranked 44 in 2022. Out of how many QB’s? There are 134 teams so he’s at least 44/134 which is good for top 33%. Without any context, I’d probably take that. More than 134 QB’s obviously played so does that stat include all QB’s or just starters or just guys with 100 passes? What if he’s 44 out of 188? Now that’s top 24%. With no context I’d take that.

I could use Denbrock’s #1 offense in 2023 to argue that he’s overrated (and I do think he’s overrated but I’m still happy he’s here.)

Stats are overrated. He was definitely the MVP of that Duke team. Maybe ND goes 12-0 if he comes to ND in 2023? That’s very realistic.

His stats show his inaccuracy, his TD to INT ratio was 2 to 1 which is horrible, and most of his passes were short to intermediate.

 

[Chitown11]

His stats show his inaccuracy, his TD to INT ratio was 2 to 1 which is horrible, and most of his passes were short to intermediate.

Yeah but NDinNJ, you are forgetting about ALL that potential, LMFAO. Just ask his BFF Golson5

 

[FightingIrish44]

WTH are you talking about?
In 2022 Riley had 2967 yards
In 2023 Williams had 3633


You obviously love Riley and that's ok but certainly says something about what you're seeing versus reality.

CFB welcomes all fans and Riley needs your support

Their total yards are basically the same. That should be obvious to a know it all like yourself, especially since I quoted you with a similar stat yesterday. Seriously, you couldn’t figure that out on your own? I didn’t say anything about passing yards.

My reality is fine. You’re just a blowhard who can’t even parse basic statistics…that’s probably not someone whose football acumen should be trusted.

 

[NDinNJ]

Yeah but NDinNJ, you are forgetting about ALL that potential, LMFAO. Just ask his BFF Golson5

You mean Mel! 😂

 

[sjb75]

His stats show his inaccuracy, his TD to INT ratio was 2 to 1 which is horrible, and most of his passes were short to intermediate.

Your hourly condemnation of Riley Leonard is a bit much.

Give it a rest.

 

[HarlemIrish]

WTH are you talking about?
In 2022 Riley had 2967 yards
In 2023 Williams had 3633


You obviously love Riley and that's ok but certainly says something about what you're seeing versus reality.

CFB welcomes all fans and Riley needs your suppor

Their total yards are basically the same. That should be obvious to a know it all like yourself, especially since I quoted you with a similar stat yesterday. Seriously, you couldn’t figure that out on your own? I didn’t say anything about passing yards.

My reality is fine. You’re just a blowhard who can’t even parse basic statistics…that’s probably not someone whose football acumen should be trusted.

Are you saying Leonard is our QB going forward? I’ve had a few

 

[FightingIrish44]

Are you saying Leonard is our QB going forward? I’ve had a few

I don’t know. Depends on what you mean, and it’s unclear how injured he is.

If not injured, yes, he should be the guy going into Purdue. If he’s clearly playing poorly against Purdue, then he should probably be pulled, but not just because he missed a couple passes or threw an INT.

I’m mostly just in disagreement that he sucks as a QB or that his stats aren’t good. His overall résumé says that he is a good QB IMO and that he gives ND the best chance to win games this season.

If you watch his 2023 games against ND and Clemson, receivers were not getting open. It’s hard to have a good completion percentage when this is the case. Hartman went 15/30 against Duke and I’d say that he played very well.

 

[NDinNJ]

Your hourly condemnation of Riley Leonard is a bit much.

Give it a rest.

YAWN

 

[88ND]

Their total yards are basically the same. That should be obvious to a know it all like yourself, especially since I quoted you with a similar stat yesterday. Seriously, you couldn’t figure that out on your own? I didn’t say anything about passing yards.

My reality is fine. You’re just a blowhard who can’t even parse basic statistics…that’s probably not someone whose football acumen should be trusted.

Again you can't comprehend or just simply ignorantly in denial.
Perhaps an apologist for Riley as you might be paying his NIL.
The entire subject in all these posts are strictly about his passing.

Let me repeat just so you get it this time
These posts are about his passing ability or lack of if you will....

As I pointed out in other threads we aren't as good at running the ball like Nebraska of 94 and 95...

In other words we NEED to throw the ball for success. Imposing our will running the ball is great but we can't rely on that all the time.
There is another team over there and they're trying hard. They also have coaches and they're trying as well.
In case you didn't know all it takes is a coach loading the box daring us to beat them in the air and down the field.
We can't make them pay because our passing game is bad. Really bad!
Riley has already shown his ability and what he can do in the passing game He's a middle of the D1 type of QB.
He runs OK...won't break one 50 yards so he's not a game changer...
but his throwing is atrocious.
The stats speak for themselves. Weak inaccurate arm which is nothing new for a QB around these parts. Matter of fact you'd think we strive to play these types of players.

 

[FightingIrish44]

Again you can't comprehend or just simply ignorantly in denial.
Perhaps an apologist for Riley as you might be paying his NIL.
The entire subject in all these posts are strictly about his passing.

Let me repeat just so you get it this time
These posts are about his passing ability or lack of if you will....

As I pointed out in other threads we aren't as good at running the ball like Nebraska of 94 and 95...

In other words we NEED to throw the ball for success. Imposing our will running the ball is great but we can't rely on that all the time.
There is another team over there and they're trying hard. They also have coaches and they're trying as well.
In case you didn't know all it takes is a coach loading the box daring us to beat them in the air and down the field.
We can't make them pay because our passing game is bad. Really bad!
Riley has already shown his ability and what he can do in the passing game He's a middle of the D1 type of QB.
He runs OK...won't break one 50 yards so he's not a game changer...
but his throwing is atrocious.
The stats speak for themselves. Weak inaccurate arm which is nothing new for a QB around these parts. Matter of fact you'd think we strive to play these types of players.

I see the issue we’re having between passing yards/total yards and see why you responded with the 2900 yards. I also didn’t quote your original post, and why should his rushing stats be disregarded anyway? If you’re making a decision on who to play, everything should be considered. It’s the sum of all parts. Who is the best person to give ND the best odds of winning. And it’s just odds. No one knows for sure how any one player will play in an upcoming game.

He runs “ok”? That’s absurd. He’s awesome as a runner. He won’t break one of 50? He has at least three runs over 50, and why use such an arbitrary number? Check his awesome TD run against Clemson last year. Does it not count because it was only 44 yards? I would never say something like “so and so is okay..I mean..he can’t break one over X yards”. Such an ignorant comment. A ballcarrier can have a great game rushing without a run over 10 yards.

Leonard’s completion percentage as a sophomore was better than any year Hartman had and now Hartman is in the NFL. Does that mean he is a better passer? No, it’s just circumstances. He also had two less INT’s than Hartman did as a sixth year with 91 more attempts. Again, does this mean Leonard is a better passer? No, it’s just circumstances. Stats are overrated.

It’s arrogant of you to assume that I’m an “apologist”. I don’t know Leonard so why would I care? I had a post on here saying that I didn’t think he was all that different from Hartman and Angeli before the season. I didn’t need to see him struggle against NIU and then spout off. Then I actually watched him and thought he was quite good. How much of Leonard have you watched?

“In case you didn't know all it takes is a coach loading the box daring us to beat them in the air and down the field.” Funny. This is part of why I think he’s so valuable.

No, the stats don’t speak for themselves. How much of Leonard did you watch prior to this season?

 

[NDinNJ]

I see the issue we’re having between passing yards/total yards and see why you responded with the 2900 yards. I also didn’t quote your original post, and why should his rushing stats be disregarded anyway? If you’re making a decision on who to play, everything should be considered. It’s the sum of all parts. Who is the best person to give ND the best odds of winning. And it’s just odds. No one knows for sure how any one player will play in an upcoming game.

He runs “ok”? That’s absurd. He’s awesome as a runner. He won’t break one of 50? He has at least three runs over 50, and why use such an arbitrary number? Check his awesome TD run against Clemson last year. Does it not count because it was only 44 yards? I would never say something like “so and so is okay..I mean..he can’t break one over X yards”. Such an ignorant comment. A ballcarrier can have a great game rushing without a run over 10 yards.

Leonard’s completion percentage as a sophomore was better than any year Hartman had and now Hartman is in the NFL. Does that mean he is a better passer? No, it’s just circumstances. He also had two less INT’s than Hartman did as a sixth year with 91 more attempts. Again, does this mean Leonard is a better passer? No, it’s just circumstances. Stats are overrated.

It’s arrogant of you to assume that I’m an “apologist”. I don’t know Leonard so why would I care? I had a post on here saying that I didn’t think he was all that different from Hartman and Angeli before the season. I didn’t need to see him struggle against NIU and then spout off. Then I actually watched him and thought he was quite good. How much of Leonard have you watched?

“In case you didn't know all it takes is a coach loading the box daring us to beat them in the air and down the field.” Funny. This is part of why I think he’s so valuable.

No, the stats don’t speak for themselves. How much of Leonard did you watch of Leonard prior to this season?

2 points

1. Riley Leonard can't make the long throw, allowing the defense to cheat up, containing Leonard's running.

2. TD to INT ratio. For every 2 TD's he throws 1 INT. That's terrible by any standard.

 

[FightingIrish44]

2 points

1. Riley Leonard can't make the long throw, allowing the defense to cheat up, containing Leonard's running.

2. TD to INT ratio. For every 2 TD's he throws 1 INT. That's terrible by any standard.

Do we know for certain he can’t make the long throw? We all saw the INT against NIU, but do we know what precisely led to the ball being so under-thrown? Do we know for certain Angeli can make long throws? Even if Angeli can make long throws, he very well could have a bad ball himself. We have such a small sample size with Angeli.

I’m not ragging on Angeli as I like him. He had a nice game against Oregon State.

I’m not a fan of the TD/INT ratio. There is value in it for sure, but TD’s are often a function of the entire team, and more specifically, the entire offense. Obviously you see Caleb Williams and Jayden Daniels most recent ratios and it’s pretty safe to assume they’re good QB’s.

However, Jayden Daniels had 17 TD’s to 2 INT’s as a true freshman. Then, as a junior, he had 10 TD’s and 10 INT’s. Did he get worse as passer two years later? Maybe he just had a few off days the way Leonard did against NIU? Maybe his team as a whole wasn’t as good and that’s why his ratio fell?

 

[NDinNJ]

Do we know for certain he can’t make the long throw? We all saw the INT against NIU, but do we know what precisely led to the ball being so under-thrown? Do we know for certain Angeli can make long throws? Even if Angeli can make long throws, he very well could have a bad ball himself. We have such a small sample size with Angeli.

I’m not ragging on Angeli as I like him. He had a nice game against Oregon State.

I’m not a fan of the TD/INT ratio. There is value in it for sure, but TD’s are often a function of the entire team, and more specifically, the entire offense. Obviously you see Caleb Williams and Jayden Daniels most recent ratios and it’s pretty safe to assume they’re good QB’s.

However, Jayden Daniels had 17 TD’s to 2 INT’s as a true freshman. Then, as a junior, he had 10 TD’s and 10 INT’s. Did he get worse as passer two years later? Maybe he just had a few off days the way Leonard did against NIU? Maybe his team as a whole wasn’t as good and that’s why his ratio fell?

his career average per pass play of 7 yards is my stat, but then I follow it up with both scouting reports coming out of HS and most recently the pro scouting reports. The consensus is he doesn't have the arm strength and needs to improve on his velocity.
The fact is Angeli, Minchey and Carr all had better offers coming out of HS. Major programs offered these guys. Leonard ended up at Duke for a reason. So yea, I believe any one of the other 3 can, based on their recruiting reports.
I truly believe the coaching staff has a shiny object syndrome. Last year it was Hartman and this year it was Leonard. Instead of developing what you have.

Caleb Williams career TD's: 93 INT's 14 that's over 7:1
Jayden Daniels career TD's: 89 INT's 20 that's over 4:1.
Riley Leonard's career TD's: 24 INT's 12. 2:1

 

[NDinNJ]

Everyone needs to remember, Riley Leonard had one good year. It wasn't even great, it was good. Even if you want to call it a great year, it was just one year. Then everyone had film on him and figured him out.

 

[FightingIrish44]

his career average per pass play of 7 yards is my stat, but then I follow it up with both scouting reports coming out of HS and most recently the pro scouting reports. The consensus is he doesn't have the arm strength and needs to improve on his velocity.
The fact is Angeli, Minchey and Carr all had better offers coming out of HS. Major programs offered these guys. Leonard ended up at Duke for a reason. So yea, I believe any one of the other 3 can, based on their recruiting reports.
I truly believe the coaching staff has a shiny object syndrome. Last year it was Hartman and this year it was Leonard. Instead of developing what you have.

Caleb Williams career TD's: 93 INT's 14 that's over 7:1
Jayden Daniels career TD's: 89 INT's 20 that's over 4:1.
Riley Leonard's career TD's: 24 INT's 12. 2:1

I’m trying to demonstrate principles when I show Daniels’ ratios. I’m not debating their entire careers. Daniels had 17/2 as a true freshman. Then he had 10/10 as a junior. Why do you think that is?

You’re talking about arm strength, but I think Leonard has better arm strength than Angeli. Let’s say that Leonard has better arm strength…that doesn’t mean he’s better than Angeli as that’s just one part being a QB, obviously.

You’re citing Leonard’s offers when that’s no longer particularly relevant. It gives us a general idea of who may be sitting on the bench, but that goes out the window once they have a fairly significant body of work. Josh Allen barely had any offers and now he’s one of the top QB’s in the NFL and a top 10 draft pick.

 

[NDinNJ]

I’m trying to demonstrate principles when I show Daniels’ ratios. I’m not debating their entire careers. Daniels had 17/2 as a true freshman. Then he had 10/10 as a junior. Why do you think that is?

You’re talking about arm strength, but I think Leonard has better arm strength than Angeli. Let’s say that Leonard has better arm strength…that doesn’t mean he’s better than Angeli as that’s just one part being a QB, obviously.

You’re citing Leonard’s offers when that’s no longer particularly relevant. It gives us a general idea of who may be sitting on the bench, but that goes out the window once they have a fairly significant body of work. Josh Allen barely had any offers and now he’s one of the top QB’s in the NFL and a top 10 draft pick.

You have to base off of career stats. You are cherry picking if you don't. The overall numbers don't lie.

Everything I've read is Angeli, Minchey, and Carr have better, stronger arms. I'll take the word of professionals over the social media hacks like Driskall.

 

[mbd11]

I’m trying to demonstrate principles when I show Daniels’ ratios. I’m not debating their entire careers. Daniels had 17/2 as a true freshman. Then he had 10/10 as a junior. Why do you think that is?

You’re talking about arm strength, but I think Leonard has better arm strength than Angeli. Let’s say that Leonard has better arm strength…that doesn’t mean he’s better than Angeli as that’s just one part being a QB, obviously.

You’re citing Leonard’s offers when that’s no longer particularly relevant. It gives us a general idea of who may be sitting on the bench, but that goes out the window once they have a fairly significant body of work. Josh Allen barely had any offers and now he’s one of the top QB’s in the NFL and a top 10 draft pick.

Bottom line, if Leonard plays poorly again Saturday, the coaches need to make a change at some point.

 

[FightingIrish44]

@NDinNJ

What I’m saying can applied to all QB’s and all players. Stats are overrated. NIU’s QB went 10/19 for 1 TD. Does this mean he was inaccurate or didn’t play well? No. He played a darn good game.

 

[mbd11]

You have to base off of career stats. You are cherry picking if you don't. The overall numbers don't lie.

Everything I've read is Angeli, Minchey, and Carr have better, stronger arms. I'll take the word of professionals over the social media hacks like Driskall.

I don't know if Angeli has a stronger arm, but he's definitely more accurate, from what we've seen.

 

[Golson5]

You have to base off of career stats. You are cherry picking if you don't. The overall numbers don't lie.

Everything I've read is Angeli, Minchey, and Carr have better, stronger arms. I'll take the word of professionals over the social media hacks like Driskall.

There's zero chance you read anywhere that Angeli has a stronger arm. Come on lol

 

[FightingIrish44]

Bottom line, if Leonard plays poorly again Saturday, the coaches need to make a change at some point.

Probably, but it’s important to point out that one’s perception of poor is different from another. Some people think he played poorly against A&M. I disagree and think he played well. Some think he was terrible against NIU whereas I think he was below average but still brought a lot of value to the team.

I’m not sure where the line is because we don’t know how good the other three QB’s are.

 

[NDinNJ]

@NDinNJ

What I’m saying can applied to all QB’s and all players. Stats are overrated. NIU’s QB went 10/19 for 1 TD. Does this mean he was inaccurate or didn’t play well? No. He played a darn good game.

Again, you are cherry picking one game. Look at their body of work over their collegiate career. Everyone can have a bad game and a great game, but how do they look over the span of their careers.? That's where you have a clearer picture.

That said, Angeli, has a limited sample size, so honestly we don't know for sure, but he's been accurate and has produced every time he's been sent on the field. Again that doesn't translate to Angeli is going to be good, because it's too small a sample size.

 

[NDinNJ]

There's zero chance you read anywhere that Angeli has a stronger arm. Come on lol

You have zero credibility. google is your friend: I could paste more but, I'll let you do some research. Quit listening to Driskall

Steve Angeli: Scouting Report

We review 2022 QB recruit Steve Angeli's film and give our scouting report of what fans can expect from the talented quarterback prospect.

cfbsaturdays.com

 

[FightingIrish44]

You have to base off of career stats. You are cherry picking if you don't. The overall numbers don't lie.

Everything I've read is Angeli, Minchey, and Carr have better, stronger arms. I'll take the word of professionals over the social media hacks like Driskall.

Career stats, of which the other three QB’s have little to none. Leonard was a true freshman on a terrible Duke team and didn’t throw the ball much or even play that much, judging by passing attempts. Without watching the games myself, I’ll withhold judgement and he was a freshman. Good sophomore year.

His junior year? He was playing well until he got hurt. Two of his not so good games, statistically, were against Top 10 defenses. Have you watched the Duke/Clemson game? If you have, then you will probably agree that receivers weren’t getting open. Same with ND/Duke.

Then he gets hurt against ND. Misses the NCSU game. Then has to come back against quality teams/defenses while playing hurt.

 

[NDinNJ]

Career stats, of which the other three QB’s have little to none. Leonard was a true freshman on a terrible Duke team and didn’t throw the ball much or even play that much, judging by passing attempts. Without watching the games myself, I’ll withhold judgement and he was a freshman. Good sophomore year.

His junior year? He was playing well until he got hurt. Two of his not so good games, statistically, were against Top 10 defenses. Have you watched the Duke/Clemson game? If you have, then you will probably agree that receivers weren’t getting open. Same with ND/Duke.

Then he gets hurt against ND. Misses the NCSU game. Then has to come back against quality teams/defenses while playing hurt.

And he was hyped up as a great QB. You're making excuses when all we can go by are his performance on the field. I get it, you bought into the hype and now you have egg on your face and you are trying to justify it.

 

[FightingIrish44]

Again, you are cherry picking one game. Look at their body of work over their collegiate career. Everyone can have a bad game and a great game, but how do they look over the span of their careers.? That's where you have a clearer picture.

That said, Angeli, has a limited sample size, so honestly we don't know for sure, but he's been accurate and has produced every time he's been sent on the field. Again that doesn't translate to Angeli is going to be good, because it's too small a sample size.

I’m not cherry picking. I never said that the NIU QB is a good QB. I said he played a “darn good game” in order to demonstrate the principle of how it is inadvisable to just go off of stats.

See…If Leonard goes out and throws three terrible picks (arbitrary number, please don’t debate this) against Purdue in the first half, I will support pulling him. One could say, “told ya so”. I would say, “no you didn’t”. His body of work has shown that he was the logical choice to lead ND. It is inadvisable to pull him because he had a bad game against NIU unless he’s injured.

 

[NDinNJ]

I’m not cherry picking. I never said that the NIU QB is a good QB. I said he played a “darn good game” in order to demonstrate the principle of how it is inadvisable to just go off of stats.

See…If Leonard goes out and throws three terrible picks (arbitrary number, please don’t debate this) against Purdue in the first half, I will support pulling him. One could say, “told ya so”. I would say, “no you didn’t”. His body of work has shown that he was the logical choice to lead ND. It is inadvisable to pull him because he had a bad game against NIU unless he’s injured.

stats off of one game yes. but over the course of their career, you know if a QB is accurate, are prone to throwing interceptions, can or cannot stretch the field vertically.

 

[FightingIrish44]

And he was hyped up as a great QB. You're making excuses when all we can go by are his performance on the field. I get it, you bought into the hype and now you have egg on your face and you are trying to justify it.

Nope. I can draw my own conclusions and do my own work. I don’t need anyone else’s hype. As I said in an earlier post, I didn’t think he was all that different from Angeli and Hartman until I actually watched him.

If he plays poorly against Purdue, pull him. The same way Jalen Hurts got pulled in the title game. It happens. Good/great player isn’t getting it done. Hurts went back to being a good/great player after being pulled and almost won the Heisman and a Super Bowl.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Bottom line, if Leonard plays poorly again Saturday, the coaches need to make a change at some point.

I know, I think that's all anyone is saying. And I would totally start Angeli with no misgivings whatsoever this week vs Purdue for any reason at all. Injury or no injury, whatever. We blew Oregon St. away in a bowl game and he himself played more or less brilliantly. Or at least very competently. RL isn't owed a damn thing. I'm not concerned about whose 'talent' is superior, or that RL is not unfairly maligned in all the sturm and drang following the loss to NIU. Just don't lose again, and get the offense playing better and being more productive. And don't pick your starter for this week based on anything other than that.

 

[88ND]

I see the issue we’re having between passing yards/total yards and see why you responded with the 2900 yards. I also didn’t quote your original post, and why should his rushing stats be disregarded anyway? If you’re making a decision on who to play, everything should be considered. It’s the sum of all parts. Who is the best person to give ND the best odds of winning. And it’s just odds. No one knows for sure how any one player will play in an upcoming game.

He runs “ok”? That’s absurd. He’s awesome as a runner. He won’t break one of 50? He has at least three runs over 50, and why use such an arbitrary number? Check his awesome TD run against Clemson last year. Does it not count because it was only 44 yards? I would never say something like “so and so is okay..I mean..he can’t break one over X yards”. Such an ignorant comment. A ballcarrier can have a great game rushing without a run over 10 yards.

Leonard’s completion percentage as a sophomore was better than any year Hartman had and now Hartman is in the NFL. Does that mean he is a better passer? No, it’s just circumstances. He also had two less INT’s than Hartman did as a sixth year with 91 more attempts. Again, does this mean Leonard is a better passer? No, it’s just circumstances. Stats are overrated.

It’s arrogant of you to assume that I’m an “apologist”. I don’t know Leonard so why would I care? I had a post on here saying that I didn’t think he was all that different from Hartman and Angeli before the season. I didn’t need to see him struggle against NIU and then spout off. Then I actually watched him and thought he was quite good. How much of Leonard have you watched?

“In case you didn't know all it takes is a coach loading the box daring us to beat them in the air and down the field.” Funny. This is part of why I think he’s so valuable.

No, the stats don’t speak for themselves. How much of Leonard did you watch prior to this season?

Yes...he runs ok.
Do you understand that means he's not a bad runner?
Or do you need me to shower down a ton of superficial adoration and start a Heisman campaign?

He's can run, yes. He's not so explosive that the defense plais tentative hoping he doesn't break a long one.

On the contrary, because he can't throw, it will be remarkably tougher sledding for him to run. Teams clearly know what Riley is all about. There's no mystery about his game.
Duke, his two games here, teams know exactly how to play him.
The rest of the way every team should dare him to throw down the field.

Hartman? Why are you bringing up a player no longer participating.
He has nothing to do with Riley whatsoever.
Unless you're talking about how foolish it is to keep brining in other team's table scraps then sure bring him up.

P.s.
For you, I'll ignore the stats. Just know the eye test can't be ignored and everyone can clearly see he sucks throwing the ball.

 

[88ND]

Again, you are cherry picking one game. Look at their body of work over their collegiate career. Everyone can have a bad game and a great game, but how do they look over the span of their careers.? That's where you have a clearer picture.

That said, Angeli, has a limited sample size, so honestly we don't know for sure, but he's been accurate and has produced every time he's been sent on the field. Again that doesn't translate to Angeli is going to be good, because it's too small a sample size.

Perfectly stated and to add...
Fans are a trendy sort. Coaches shouldn't be but sometimes they're the worst of the bunch. Trendy....oh hail the trendiest of days.

Amgeli is a victim of the trendiest of times.
He's not a dual threat QB.

As such...the question to the trendy o' folk is;
Do you take a QB who can run OK but is lousy throwing the ball or do you take the QB who can't run but has a stronger more accurate arm.

In 2023 we were ranked 15th in the nation in yards per carry with a completely one dimensional and small QB who possessed a weak arm. Hartman was no threat to run yet we were getting 5.3 yards per carry. 15th in the nation.
In other words we have a good rushing attack without a mobile QB.

We NEED a legit passing threat. Riley isn't really a threat at anything and definitely scares no one (but us) throwing the ball.

 

[FightingIrish44]

Yes...he runs ok.
Do you understand that means he's not a bad runner?
Or do you need me to shower down a ton of superficial adoration and start a Heisman campaign?

He's can run, yes. He's not so explosive that the defense plais tentative hoping he doesn't break a long one.

On the contrary, because he can't throw, it will be remarkably tougher sledding for him to run. Teams clearly know what Riley is all about. There's no mystery about his game.
Duke, his two games here, teams know exactly how to play him.
The rest of the way every team should dare him to throw down the field.

Hartman? Why are you bringing up a player no longer participating.
He has nothing to do with Riley whatsoever.
Unless you're talking about how foolish it is to keep brining in other team's table scraps then sure bring him up.

P.s.
For you, I'll ignore the stats. Just know the eye test can't be ignored and everyone can clearly see he sucks throwing the ball.

I understand what ok means. I have no idea how someone who has watched more than the three games in which Leonard and ND have participated could describe him as “ok”.

How much of Leonard did you watch without ND being involved? Really, how much?

He has outstanding instincts/innate skills as a runner, probably sub 4.65 speed, and good acceleration all while being physical and possessing a championship mindset and determination. He’s outstanding as a runner in my opinion and not just good or ok.

I bring up Hartman in order to reference and demonstrate that you can’t just go off of stats.

I don’t think you understand how a dangerous runner at QB affects the whole game or how all 22 players tie into each other.

You’re also so sure that he sucks at passing. Off of what? A bad NIU game throwing the ball and some surface statistics? I’m not confusing him with Jimmy Clausen as a passer. There’s more than one way to win a football game.

How much of Leonard have you watched without ND involved?

 

[Harpo Marxist]

I understand what ok means. I have no idea how someone who has watched more than the three games in which Leonard and ND have participated could describe him as “ok”.

How much of Leonard did you watch without ND being involved? Really, how much?

He has outstanding instincts/innate skills as a runner, probably sub 4.65 speed, and good acceleration all while being physical and possessing a championship mindset and determination. He’s outstanding as a runner in my opinion and not just good or ok.

I bring up Hartman in order to reference and demonstrate that you can’t just go off of stats.

I don’t think you understand how a dangerous runner at QB affects the whole game or how all 22 players tie into each other.

You’re also so sure that he sucks at passing. Off of what? A bad NIU game throwing the ball and some surface statistics? I’m not confusing him with Jimmy Clausen as a passer. There’s more than one way to win a football game.

How much of Leonard have you watched without ND involved?

Leonard is, up to this point, basically playing at his career averages (61% passing @ 5.1 yards per play) The 0 touchdowns and 2 picks moves the needle in the wrong direction, however. He is what he is. How this team and coaching can compensate for any deficiencies remains to be seen. If he is not 100% healthy, and playing, then the scoreboard will confirm that. Getting through the first 3 or 4 games, successfully, and without injury was sort of the benchmark. ND has failed on both counts, it seems. Leonard, if playing hurt, is exposed to getting hurt even more. That is on Freeman, not Leonard. Freeman needs to coach this team like his job depends on it. Not that it does, but that it should. And it isn't just about the quarterback.