OT Lebron F'ing James Give Him his Flowers

[raulduke_007]

Another factor is the amount of teams in the league back then. Only 23 until ‘88 & then 25 for a bit. Today there’s 30 teams. I realize the talent pool has grown globally, but we’re talking about 84 to 105 less players (depending on if you’re talking about a 12 man or 15 man roster) in the league back then. Simple math tells us that the overall depth of teams was better back then. The rise of int’l players is most definitely a factor, but not enough to fill 7 nba rosters equivalent to an 80s nba roster.

There are 120 international players on NBA rosters in 2022-23 more than enough to make up for the 7 teams. D1 programs went from 115 in the 80's to over 350 now. Unlike MJ's title run when you expanded 6 teams in 7 years with 99%-93% all US players. The NBA talent pool was the weakest in the 90's.

 

[raulduke_007]

I don't know. KD has ZERO defense and isn't much of a leader. Pretty weak around the rim too. An elite shooter who can get his own shot anytime he wants for sure. Should have stayed with OKC and Russ and got a chip that way. Definitely 15 -20 players worthy of consideration.

Lol Kevin Durant is the only player in NBA history to have a season where he shot over 55% from the field over 40% from 3 and over 90% from the FT line. As for Defense KD is a very underrated defender.
Not only is Durant's defensive rating (100) tied for the best of his career, but it also ties him with Chicago Bulls wunderkind Jimmy Butler for the third-best mark among all players logging at least 35 minutes per game, behind only Paul George (95) and DeAndre Jordan and Lance Stephenson (98).

Notice something about that exclusive list of players? You should. Three of them are considered elite defenders—Jordan, George and Butler—and Stephenson, after taking the head-first leap into stardom, has become lauded for his defensive play too.
This season has been especially convincing, as he's on pace to become just the sixth player since 2004 to register a defensive rating under 101 after playing more than 38 minutes a night. The other five include Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard, Gerald Wallace, Shawn Marion and Luol Deng, all of whom are/were considered staunch defenders

 

[nptb]

Who’s guarding him now that’s so special? Tatum, Klay, Draymond? Barkley, Pippen, Malone, Magic, Bird… if you think Lebron would be more dominate in the 80s/90s, we’ll that’s just beyond clueless. That would imply defense and physicality is better now- false. These are finesse athletes who sit at the three point line.Not to mention there’s nobody at the rim waiting like Hakeem, Admiral, Ewing.

You truly don't understand how much more athletic Lebron is than everyone you named. Athletically, the closes to him is Barkley and he's 6'4. Hakeem who is my favorite big man ever is getting put in the basket as is David Robinson and Ewing.

 

[mrwigglesby21]

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Lol Kevin Durant is the only player in NBA history to have a season where he shot over 55% from the field over 40% from 3 and over 90% from the FT line. As for Defense KD is a very underrated defender.
Not only is Durant's defensive rating (100) tied for the best of his career, but it also ties him with Chicago Bulls wunderkind Jimmy Butler for the third-best mark among all players logging at least 35 minutes per game, behind only Paul George (95) and DeAndre Jordan and Lance Stephenson (98).

Notice something about that exclusive list of players? You should. Three of them are considered elite defenders—Jordan, George and Butler—and Stephenson, after taking the head-first leap into stardom, has become lauded for his defensive play too.
This season has been especially convincing, as he's on pace to become just the sixth player since 2004 to register a defensive rating under 101 after playing more than 38 minutes a night. The other five include Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard, Gerald Wallace, Shawn Marion and Luol Deng, all of whom are/were considered staunch defenders

KD's offensive prowess is exceptional. Nobody is debating that. I'm starting a franchise there are 15 - 20 other players worthy of consideration.

Let's dive into that Defensive Rating. Who is giving the rating, as in, source? What is the rating based of? Kevin Durant CERTAINLY DOES NOT match up against the best, or 2nd best, offensive player on the other team often. Definitely not the best offensive player. So his defensive rating is probably trash compared to Kevin G, Dwight, Gerald, Shawn and Luol, all of whom were guarding the best offensive player on the other team from the opening tip.

I've watched Kevin Durant play ball for over a decade - plz don't try to sell folks on his defense. Kevin Durant has made ZERO All defensive teams, 1st or 2nd. We talking about top 15 basketball players off all time and you want to throw a shooting specialist only in there? Nah.

 

[bizzybecknd]

You truly don't understand how much more athletic Lebron is than everyone you named. Athletically, the closes to him is Barkley and he's 6'4. Hakeem who is my favorite big man ever is getting put in the basket as is David Robinson and Ewing.

They were waiting at the rim, not guarding him. I’d take Chuck, MJ and Pip guarding Lebron over Tatum and whoever else you want to throw out there in 2023.

 

[raulduke_007]

They were waiting at the rim, not guarding him. I’d take Chuck, MJ and Pip guarding Lebron over Tatum and whoever else you want to throw out there in 2023.

I think Rodman and Pip would be the best players that could of guarded Lebron, but I think the ISO rules and side pick n roll where the help defender couldnt go under the free throw line (if man he is guarding is at the 3 pt line) in the 80's and 90's would have gave Lebron a unreal edge. In LBJ's prime no one in NBA history had a quicker 1st step and the ability to get down hill than Lebron. I just dont see anyone consistently stopping that action.

 

[theskibro]

Its a 55/45 series. Going at least 6 games

Dead wrong. You got nothing today except a few players. Competition was unreal in 70,80,90
It was a physical, bruising game and the skilled shone brighter than anything today A handful of todays players would be stars

 

[sjb75]

Another factor is the amount of teams in the league back then. Only 23 until ‘88 & then 25 for a bit. Today there’s 30 teams. I realize the talent pool has grown globally, but we’re talking about 84 to 105 less players (depending on if you’re talking about a 12 man or 15 man roster) in the league back then. Simple math tells us that the overall depth of teams was better back then. The rise of int’l players is most definitely a factor, but not enough to fill 7 nba rosters equivalent to an 80s nba roster.

The NBA today is watered down.

 

[mrwigglesby21]

I think Rodman and Pip would be the best players that could of guarded Lebron, but I think the ISO rules and side pick n roll where the help defender couldnt go under the free throw line (if man he is guarding is at the 3 pt line) in the 80's and 90's would have gave Lebron a unreal edge. In LBJ's prime no one in NBA history had a quicker 1st step and the ability to get down hill than Lebron. I just dont see anyone consistently stopping that action.

Do you think the ability to hand-check and arm-bar would slow that 1st step down any?

Prime Lebron would adjust to the game in any decade no doubt and be one of the top 3 -5 players in any season ever.

He deserves credit for sure. Probably the most versatile player in NBA history. If I'm creating an all time top 5 team, I'd put LBJ as my starting PG.

 

[bizzybecknd]

KD's offensive prowess is exceptional. Nobody is debating that. I'm starting a franchise there are 15 - 20 other players worthy of consideration.

Let's dive into that Defensive Rating. Who is giving the rating, as in, source? What is the rating based of? Kevin Durant CERTAINLY DOES NOT match up against the best, or 2nd best, offensive player on the other team often. Definitely not the best offensive player. So his defensive rating is probably trash compared to Kevin G, Dwight, Gerald, Shawn and Luol, all of whom were guarding the best offensive player on the other team from the opening tip.

I've watched Kevin Durant play ball for over a decade - plz don't try to sell folks on his defense. Kevin Durant has made ZERO All defensive teams, 1st or 2nd. We talking about top 15 basketball players off all time and you want to throw a shooting specialist only in there? Nah.

This..KD top 15 is a joke, OP had him Top 10. Dude couldn’t get it done with 2 other league MVPs on his team in Russ/Harden. Had to join Curry’s dynasty to get on the championship bus.

 

[tbonesays]

Another factor is the amount of teams in the league back then. Only 23 until ‘88 & then 25 for a bit. Today there’s 30 teams. I realize the talent pool has grown globally, but we’re talking about 84 to 105 less players (depending on if you’re talking about a 12 man or 15 man roster) in the league back then. Simple math tells us that the overall depth of teams was better back then. The rise of int’l players is most definitely a factor, but not enough to fill 7 nba rosters equivalent to an 80s nba roster.

which is true of the team and all of its opponents, rendering the point moot.

 

[francade]

“There are 120 international players on NBA rosters in 2022-23 more than enough to make up for the 7 teams. D1 programs went from 115 in the 80's to over 350 now. Unlike MJ's title run when you expanded 6 teams in 7 years with 99%-93% all US players. The NBA talent pool was the weakest in the 90's.”

The nba didn’t go from zero intl players to over 100 over night. There were intl players playing back then. I can list a bunch of them if you’d like. But you’re also assuming that all intl players were/are better than the US players that were on 7 less teams back in the day & that’s simply not at all true. Less total players on rosters means better overall talent on rosters. 30 teams have watered down the talent base, and intl play hasn’t gotten close to making up for 7 less teams to make a squad. There are plenty of intl busts out there.

 

[francade]

“which is true of the team and all of its opponents, rendering the point moot.”

Don’t understand your point, tbone. If there were over 100 less players on teams back then, how is that a moot point? It was harder to make a team back then because there were less spots. How is that a moot point when discussing overall talent pool?

 

[Golson5]

Who’s guarding him now that’s so special? Tatum, Klay, Draymond? Barkley, Pippen, Malone, Magic, Bird… if you think Lebron would be more dominate in the 80s/90s, we’ll that’s just beyond clueless. That would imply defense and physicality is better now- false. These are finesse athletes who sit at the three point line.Not to mention there’s nobody at the rim waiting like Hakeem, Admiral, Ewing.

Kawhi leonard in one of the great defenders of all time. Same with Giannis. Durant is 6'11" with a 7'6" wingspan and atgletic. Paul George is 6'9" 225lbs athlete. Thwre are so many athketic wing defenders

What are you talking about, seriously

 

[Golson5]

The poster said Top 10 but he’s not in the Top 15 either. Might sneak into top 20.

Easy top 20, closer to top 10 than 20

 

[Golson5]

“I have. Recently. Have you?

Barkley was not a stud as a rookie. He averaged 14ppg and 9rpg

In barkleys second year, dr j was 34 and not the same player.”

Have I what, watched tape of 80s nba? No, I don’t need to. I witnessed it, firsthand. You can tout today’s player all you want, I’m not saying players now couldn’t be as good back then, but those teams were better.

Barkley was a stud in college and a stud in the nba (one of the best to ever play the game). Moses and dr j had just won a title. The only reason they didn’t win was because the Celtics had one of the best teams ever. I don’t know how old you are and really don’t care, but you think lebron is a top 5 passer of all time. That’s as absurd a take I’ve ever heard. You love lebron, that’s fine, he’s one of the greats, but just as the game has changed in football, it’s changed in basketball too. Brady wouldn’t have been able to play as long as he has back in the 80s, just as today’s players wouldn’t have the same exact success back in the day necessarily because of the way the game is called today and the way it’s turned into charging to the basket or heaving up threes (there’s very little motion & team game play). The game has changed, for the worse. You may disagree, & that’s fine, but stop w/ the “players didn’t work out back then”, that’s dumb and flat out wrong.

Thats the problem with people. They remember what they watched being the best because at the time it absolutley was. And guess what, 30 years from now will be better than the players today. Thats just how it is

Humans evolve. Look at every olympic and strength competition record in history. Over 90 percent or more will be shattered within a 30 year span. Players are bigger faster quicker stronger. Nutrition is better etc etc. It's evolution of humans

 

[Golson5]

You are clueless. I'm not even a a Bulls fan, and as a Knicks fan I despised Jordan at that time. Never hitched about him traveling or getting favorable calls. Unlike today, hard fouls existed, defense existed. Todays game there is no defense, only flopping. Soccer may have invented the flop, but todays NBA players have mastered it. The NBA is a shell of what it used to be.

Head in sand. It was constant from old heads and jordan haters back then

 

[Golson5]

I don't know. KD has ZERO defense and isn't much of a leader. Pretty weak around the rim too. An elite shooter who can get his own shot anytime he wants for sure. Should have stayed with OKC and Russ and got a chip that way. Definitely 15 -20 players worthy of consideration.

Zero defense LOL.

It's funny people dont have a clue about basketball

 

[Golson5]

Dead wrong. You got nothing today except a few players. Competition was unreal in 70,80,90
It was a physical, bruising game and the skilled shone brighter than anything today A handful of todays players would be stars

Lol now you're throwing the 70s guys in there too HAHAHAHA

Go back and watch a full game feom the 70s. There were multiple players on the court who couldnt dribble very well with their left hand and looked like they were 180 pounds with limited athleticism and never seen a weight in their life

You people are hilarious

 

[Telx1]

Maybe it’s old age sentimentality Kicking in, but nothing today compares to the quality of overall TEAM play we used to enjoy. I grew up a Lakers fan, and watching Baylor/West/Chamberlain going up against Russel/Jones/Havelcheck et al, where every possession was gold, was by far better TEAM basketball than what we see today. The same of Magic and Bird and Jordan, etc…. I do think today’s players are more skilled in one on one play, and generally more athletic and better conditioned athletes.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Nothing like a good LeBron/Jordan slap fight. or catfight. Watch the claws come out! It is interesting sometimes, as a thought experiment, to wonder how the players would fare against each other, from the two eras, if they could play in heaven, or in a time warp or some shit. That would be fascinating.

One thing I think is for sure though. Players are not more physically athletic now than they were then. There's been no physical evolution in the last thirty years. If they're better now it's only because the game itself has evolved. And so in order to play now and make it in the NBA, you have to have a higher baseline to your game just to keep up. And that's really difficult to quantify. And of course there's no way to actually have them settle it on the court.

Everyone can tell that players from the 50s, who themselves were not meaningfully less physically capable than players today, we're not as good from players in the 80s/90s, and certainly not players of today. But it's not just a straight line up where all human beings and athletes continuously improve into perpetuity in whatever sport they play. It does top out. And outside of how prolific today's game is with respect to long rage outside shooting, I'm not sure exactly what makes today's players so much better and more skillful. And anybody who wasn't alive back then, can easily watch extended highlight reels from the 80s/90s, and see how good they were.

In fact if it is true that today's players are better it's not because of anything they're consciously doing. It's just that the overall baseline of the sport has risen inexorably and taken the entire league with it willy nilly, and quite unknowingly. Not because of their dazzling individual skill, and certainly not because they're physically faster, stronger or quicker in their DNA compared to Jordan's era. Repeat, there has been no physical evolution among NBA players in thirty years time.

And what does it say about today's game that creaky old, hunched over LeBron James can still be such an impact player. I don't think it's such good commentary about the state of the NBA in 2023.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Easy top 20, closer to top 10 than 20

No chance in hell, being able to lead a team is the purest sign of a great. I don’t give a squat about his measurables and scoring ability.

 

[Airzee23]

The old man just continues to amaze me. Year 20 and played damn near every minute and was the best player on the court. Almost a flawless performance when the Lakers needed him most. I dont think the Lakers can beat the Denver but man what a showman. 41 series wins to go to #1 all time. Taking out another defending champ. Give this man his flowers he has surpassed the unreal expectations heaped on him as a 16 year old... Mama there goes that man!

Go get Ja Morant some bullets.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Kawhi leonard in one of the great defenders of all time. Same with Giannis. Durant is 6'11" with a 7'6" wingspan and atgletic. Paul George is 6'9" 225lbs athlete. Thwre are so many athketic wing defenders

What are you talking about, seriously

I’ll give you Kawhi, guy is phenomenal. But the sentiment that this crop of players could defend Lebron better than the 90s crew is laughable. Based on pure measurables.

 

[sjb75]

Nothing like a good LeBron/Jordan slap fight. or catfight. Watch the claws come out! It is interesting sometimes, as a thought experiment, to wonder how the players would fare against each other, from the two eras, if they could play in heaven, or in a time warp or some shit. That would be fascinating.

One thing I think is for sure though. Players are not more physically athletic now than they were then. There's been no physical evolution in the last thirty years. If they're better now it's only because the game itself has evolved. And so in order to play now and make it in the NBA, you have to have a higher baseline to your game just to keep up. And that's really difficult to quantify. And of course there's no way to actually have them settle it on the court.

Everyone can tell that players from the 50s, who themselves were not meaningfully less physically capable than players today, we're not as good from players in the 80s/90s, and certainly not players of today. But it's not just a straight line up where all human beings and athletes continuously improve into perpetuity in whatever sport they play. It does top out. And outside of how prolific today's game is with respect to long rage outside shooting, I'm not sure exactly what makes today's players so much better and more skillful. And anybody who wasn't alive back then, can easily watch extended highlight reels from the 80s/90s, and see how good they were.

In fact if it is true that today's players are better it's not because of anything they're consciously doing. It's just that the overall baseline of the sport has risen inexorably and taken the entire league with it willy nilly, and quite unknowingly. Not because of their dazzling individual skill, and certainly not because they're physically faster, stronger or quicker in their DNA compared to Jordan's era. Repeat, there has been no physical evolution among NBA players in thirty years time.

And what does it say about today's game that creaky old, hunched over LeBron James can still be such an impact player. I don't think it's such good commentary about the state of the NBA in 2023.

Anyone have an Advil?

 

[mrwigglesby21]

Zero defense LOL.

It's funny people dont have a clue about basketball

You, sir, are showing your complete lack of knowledge. Are you 16? When is the last time you heard anybody talking about Kevin Durant locking someone up? Dude is soft AF. Look at the last 5 or 6 seasons, he doesn't even play 60% of the games. He is a non-leader. He is a quitter. Dude has done nothing to improve his physique so he could compete with LBJ one on one and go for the GOAT title. At least Lebron went after it.

Durant is 4th all time in PPG. He drops to 14th in WinShares per 48. Because he brings SO LITTLE to the table outside of scoring.

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Win Shares Per 48 Minutes | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for and more on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

 

[bizzybecknd]

You, sir, are showing your complete lack of knowledge. Are you 16? When is the last time you heard anybody talking about Kevin Durant locking someone up? Dude is soft AF. Look at the last 5 or 6 seasons, he doesn't even play 60% of the games. He is a non-leader. He is a quitter. Dude has done nothing to improve his physique so he could compete with LBJ one on one and go for the GOAT title. At least Lebron went after it.

Durant is 4th all time in PPG. He drops to 14th in WinShares per 48. Because he brings SO LITTLE to the table outside of scoring.

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Win Shares Per 48 Minutes | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for and more on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

but have you seen his wingspan?

 

[savvyandsassier]

Anyone have an Advil?

What you need is cyanide, dude. You feel me? And pop several of them, not just one.

That's no joke.....

 

[tbonesays]

“which is true of the team and all of its opponents, rendering the point moot.”

Don’t understand your point, tbone. If there were over 100 less players on teams back then, how is that a moot point? It was harder to make a team back then because there were less spots. How is that a moot point when discussing overall talent pool?

Because it cancels out. IF the opponents were more diluted then your team was too. And with these numbers you are talking about maybe 7% shift in the quality of the bench. So not relevant.


One thing that is different is the that the teams of 80s - early 90s were better brands and much more fun to watch. On the court, teams like the Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons somehow symbolized their cities off the court. I don't think that has happened since Lebron playing for Cleveland. Teams are now just who they could hire.

 

[Chitown11]

I'll take MJ anyday over Labronny.

 

[francade]

Still not following you about it cancelling it out, tbone. Teams weren’t more diluted, they were deeper because the league consisted of 100 or so fewer players, so it was harder to get on a roster. Had they had 30 teams back then, less talented players would be on rosters.

 

[sjb75]

I'll take MJ anyday over Labronny.

So do the vast majority of NBA personnel.

 

[NDinNJ]

Head in sand. It was constant from old heads and jordan haters back then

clueless.

 

[Golson5]

No chance in hell, being able to lead a team is the purest sign of a great. I don’t give a squat about his measurables and scoring ability.

Oscar Robertson never led a team, is he not on your top 20? Same goes with Elgin Baylor? Many many great players weren't the best player on a Championship team or never won a title.

He has 2 titles, 2 finals mvps, reg season mvp and many many other accolades along with having no offensive weakness and being a good defender

Easy top 20 no question there

 

[Golson5]

Still not following you about it cancelling it out, tbone. Teams weren’t more diluted, they were deeper because the league consisted of 100 or so fewer players, so it was harder to get on a roster. Had they had 30 teams back then, less talented players would be on rosters.

International players

 

[Golson5]

Yeah.....A 6'9" 265 lb massive freak athlete who is also one of the best passers ever couldn't compete in a particular era?!?! HAHAHA

Reggie Miller was like 190 lbs and he excelled in that physical 90s basketball but the bigger, faster, stronger more athletic guy couldn't !!!!

Chris Mullin is another guy who excelled in the 90s. Yeah he was tough and physical lol. And athletic too lol. Great player is not a knock on him but he could excel in the physical 90s but Bron wouldnt dominate lol

Hilarious stuff

 

[Golson5]

but have you seen his wingspan?

If you dont think a players length plays a huge factor in the defensive end, you have never played a conpetitive day in your life

That tells me all I need to know

 

[raulduke_007]

Great example of what i was talking about regarding defenses. Lebron would have absolutely cooked the NBA in the 80's and 90's that they would have had to change the rules. And MJ getting cooked to the hole by slow ass Danny Ainge with the game on the line. 😂 Yall need to quit this nonsense.

 

[Golson5]

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Great example of what i was talking about regarding defenses. Lebron would have absolutely cooked the NBA in the 80's and 90's that they would have had to change the rules. And MJ getting cooked to the hole by slow ass Danny Ainge with the game on the line. 😂 Yall need to quit this nonsense.

Mike is great and would be great now but the people acting like Lebron wouldnt absolutely destroy these guys is funny

 

[raulduke_007]

Mike is great and would be great now but the people acting like Lebron wouldnt absolutely destroy these guys is funny

MJ would & could adapt to todays game but the soft doubles and overload defenses would make it alot harder on what he was great at than old heads think. MJ once said he didnt like shooting 3's because it took away from where he was the most dominant (the midrange & driving to the hole) but he would have to develop a legit 3 pt shot to thrive in todays era.