OT- Jim Brown Dead at 87
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Yeah.... can't get past all the accusations of abuse to women.
#1 overall Bradshaw
called all plays and played during a kill the QB era
1,A Barry Sanders
1, B Jim Brown
1, c Payton
2 Joe Greene
3,aJim Otto
3,B Mike Webster
4 Taylor
Now I know why I never respected your opinion. Put Bradshaw on any other team and he is a bum
So let me get this straight.....
A subject that is completely based on opinion and if that opinion differs from yours then you respond in the most juvenile of ways.
Maturity solidifies age only being a number.
You've sold that well
That's a tough list.
They would be my 5 and 6
Montana is #5 and definitely my #2 QB.
The only reason I put Bradshaw ahead is no offensive coordinator. Bradshaw called every single play himself.
Joe possibly could've done that too but he had Walsh running that offense calling the plays.
Rice is #6, the #1 receiver and incredible football player.
The thing is to even be in a top 50 discussion all time of pro football players overall...not just at a position...is pretty incredible.
Who are your top 5 players ever?
1. Jim Brown
2. Joe Montana
3. LT
4. Jerry Rice
5. Walter Payton
6. Barry Sanders
7. Reggie White
8. Randy Moss
9. Tom Brady
10. Emmitt Smith.
Good list...
The fun part with lists like these are the differing opinions. Nobody is right nor wrong.
I never got to see Chuck Bednarik play...
I never got to see Gale Sayers run.
All players that could be in someone's top whatever of all time and you couldn't say they're wrong.
Some others that could be in someone's top whatever of all time..
Dick Butkus
Bart Starr
Jim Taylor
Ray Nitchske
Johnny U
Earl Campbell
Franco Harris
Dorsett...in his prime the fastest player I've ever seen
Anthony Munoz
Jack Lambert
Roger Staubach
Reggie White
Steve Largent
Erik Williams
Mel Blount
Ted Hendricks
Randy White
Jack Ham...maybe the best fundamentally sound defensive player ever. Definitely the best fundamentally sound tackler.
Jackie Slater
Ronnie Lott
John Hannah
Jack Tatum
Calvin Johnson
John Mackey
Ray Guy...LOL...
A punter can't be on this list right? Punting is part of the game and he was ridiculously good at it
Of course I'm forgetting a slew of others that I'm sure I'll remember five minutes from now
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Agree these lists are fun … you somehow left LT off your lists. He’s a top 5 player who caused the entire sport to change. Bradshaw is an odd choice - he’s a winner who was surrounded by incredible talent and coaching, you aren’t going to get many to agree with you on this one. Heck I’d take Marino or Fouts over Bradshaw.
Having Watched Bradshaw your drivel about calling plays is kind of funny.
He was bailed out SO MANY TIMES on bad throws by very athletic WRs.
and being surrounded by one of the most talented teams of all time plus a great coach?
Yeah, this is about as dumb as it gets. NO ONE outside of steeler homers think the same as the garbage you spew
Post in thread 'OT- Jim Brown Dead at 87' https://notredame.forums.rivals.com/threads/ot-jim-brown-dead-at-87.185423/post-3705900
I listed Taylor at #4
Again...... these lists are opinion and simply put you can take whoever you want over whomever you'd like but ...
BUT...
Just remember this...
Marino, Fouts both benefitted either from the players around them and or the coaching.
Don Coryell......
Duper and Clayton.
Chandler, Winslow I, Jefferson, Muncie
Matter of fact it's impossible to pick a QB worthy of an all time list that didn't benefit from things. Players and or coaching.
I gave Bradshaw the nod because of his success and he called every single play. Himself!
No coordinator or press box buzzing down a play. He looked, read, called a play. ezecuted said play...
Another two reasons I took him was his level of competition was absurd. The Raiders were their equal and whoever came out of the AFC went through hell just to make the super bowl in the 70's.
Add in killing the QB then was legal and even promoted. He called his plays....
As I said though anyone's QB list worthy benefitted from either players or coaches or both.
Montana had Clark and Solomon early on then Rice and Taylor later.
Craig coming out the backfield.
Plus Bill Walsh who certainly was on to something with the west coast offense was a gigantic reason for success.
Marino and Fouts...Coryell, Shula, and some damn good receivers.
Brady? Belechick, maybe the greatest slot receiver and tight end ever...?
If you're going to pose the parameter of greatest football player ever who did the most with the least around them...
My choice would be Jim Brown, Barry Sanders, Payton, Campbell in any order.
I don't know how good Brown's line was or wasn't but the defense then played the run. 8 or 9 in the box was the normal yet he was still incredible.
Barry Sanders... played with nothing in Detroit Sans a dabble with Mitchell and Hernan Moore.
Who weren't over the top talented players.
Earl Campbell...?
Walter Payton.....maybe did the most with the least....???
Supporting talent lacked...he was rather small ....wasn't the fastest...
But nobody ran harder than he did.
When the Bears finally caught fire he was nearing the end of his career.
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Well that's another thing, are you going to evaluate who did more with less? That would probably invert the list of great WRs.
In Brown's case I really have no idea how big he was and what sized linebackers were hitting him. I do know that you could be almost a normal human and still play on the line in that era.
Jim Brown was 230 lbs. of solid muscle. Very little body fat. He was as big as many D-linemen in his day. And he had 3 future HOF lineman blocking for him: LT/K Lou Groza (6x All-Pro, 9x Pro Bowl), RT Mike McCormack (9x All-Pro, 6x Pro Bowl), RG Gene Hickerson (7x All-Pro, 6x Pro Bowl). Between Brown's size and physical skills and the guys he blocking for him, that was a tough combo to beat. He was the best of his time, and certainly can make a case for GOAT among RBs.
I am a Bears fan so my favorites were always Gale Sayers and Walter Payton. Lightning and thunder. Sayers was graceful and fast and was the best open field runner I ever saw. His fire burned brightly, but his career was cut way too short by a knee injury. Walter Payton had indomitable will as a RB. He was not very big (200 lbs. soaking wet) and was more quick than fast, but he was a punishing runner. Played most of his career on really bad teams. Had the best stiff arm I ever saw until Derrick Henry came along.
Sorry for missing LT on your list … I get what you are saying and the guy has a fistful of rings - he’s not in many top X lists but you have your reasons. As for other QBs having more talent, I’d argue the QB makes the WRs look better too … Marino was something special.
Linemen then...
250# was heavy.
230-245 was the nominal weight.
Brown was ...without looking I believe 6'2 235#
Definitely bigger than some of the linemen then.
Marino was incredible. He had a really unique release.
A quick little twitch of the elbow and forearm and he's throwing a 40 yard frozen rope.
We've just seen four prevuous QB's at ND...at our beloved and all the history mind you... that couldn't throw a 30 yard frozen rope winding up and doing a chicken hop as well...let alone a ultra quick release no wind up 40 yarder laser.
And there's no doubt it goes hand in hand. Good passers help the receivers and vice-versa.
RB's and line play...
So that goes back to the most one on one without help is in the trenches. The center, guard and tackle match-up one on one with the Dline
Every other position minus kickers gets help from someone else.
QB/WR help each other
OL helps the RB's
Linebackers helped by the DL
Secondary helped by the front seven.
The trenches are man on man. No help.
Chuck Bednarik? Never seen him play.
Jim Otto... Mike Webster?
Larry Allen ?
Joe Greene, Reggie White?
Alan Page?
Extremely difficult to do a list of greatest ever.
I went to summer camp with Hannah's son any years ago. A non-denominational Christian camp. I wasn't too impressed as I only knew the Pats weren't that good at me.
I don't agree with your ranking of Bradshaw, but I do agree he was a great player.
I just watched Super Bowl X yesterday. The NFL Network aired the original broadcast. Bradshaw had a gun. He also took a real beating back then, as did Staubach (another all-time great). On his long bomb TD pass to Swann that put the game away, Bradshaw got knocked out of the game with a concussion. Terry Hanratty quarterbacked them for their last two series.
RIP Jim Brown.
That's why I put him #1...
He was 4-0 in the biggest games.
Called all his plays
Maybe the strongest arm ever? They didn't do QB competition then but he could just flip the ball 50 yards like nothing. That one pass to Swann....the leaping catch... in superbowl X ..
Thrown from the goal line and it would've landed about 54/55 yards away. No wind up. Just a little flip.
Plus the beating they he took back then. They all got killed. It was promoted.
That's not to say a Brady or Manning couldn't have taken that but the fact remains they didn't. The rules were much different after the Bradshaw era.
Lastly...
He didn't have 13 QB coaches helping this,that and the other thing. Year round polishing of the craft wasn't a thing. No O coordinator...
Again.. lists like these are impossible to say anyone is right or wrong.
Hell maybe Jim Thorpe is the greatest ever?
He was a great player, but I don't even have him as the best QB in that game. I'll take Roger the Dodger over Bradshaw. Bradshaw beat him twice in Super Bowls, but he also had a better supporting cast. There were more future HOFers on the Steelers. But Roger also led the Cowboys to 4 Super Bowls, and went 2-2. And he didn't join the NFL until he was 27.
Bradshaw did have a better arm, though.
IMO Jim Brown is the best of the best. He has to be the toughest, strongest, fastest and most athletic man who ever played football. He was a great lacrosse player as well as a great baseball and basketball player in HS and ran track and field. He literally could do it all.
Funny story. I read that Bird cut his own career short because he tried to pour his own cement rather than hire it done.
I saw them All; Brown and it really is not that difficult a choice.
Then the lists go:
Campbell,Payton, Little, Sanders,… a few others; it gets hard to choose from them, but the 2nd list starts with Cambell and Sayers, then Payton
I totally agree. Brown had a huge advantage in his size and physical ability at that time and place. Having such talent in the O line certainly was a significant factor as well. BUT the man had it upstairs as well; that sets apart great athletes from great players.
Also agree about Gale Sayers. It costs some money but you can get game films of 60's NFL. Before his knee injury, he was the best open field runner I ever saw. Sometimes it was like they were all in slo mo while he was going by.
Payton was not really that less physically talented; but truly did maximize what he had. IT was his WILL that made him so great. Agree about the stiff arm; only reason Henry's is better is because he is so much stronger.
You can NOT discount what Landry brought to the offense helping Roger.
Staubach was good and no disrespect to him but he had more offensive coaching help than Bradshaw. Bradshaw was on his own in that regard.
Also...it's not like the Cowboys were chopped liver.
Preston Pearson was a damn good multi faceted back. (He'd make a lot of money today)
Later Dorsett..(fastest RB I've ever seen in his prime)
On defense Dallas had a very good pair of safeties...Harvey Martin was a beast (with a drug problem), Ed Jones (6'9") later Randy White...
The Steelers had a great team but make no mistake the Cowboys had good material as well.
Fact remains any QB list worthy got help. Put any great QB with 10 average or below offensive players and bad coaching and suddenly the great QB isn't so great after all.
Definitely the position most reliant on teammates and coaching
Yeah. Obviously its all opinion but Bradshaw isnt even a top 5 QB. Probably not top 10 either. Just crazy or a homer
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