Looking Ahead To The 2018 Recruiting Class

[IrishInOntario]

With National Signing Day less than 5 months away and Notre Dame's 2017 recruiting class in wait-and-see mode relative to the few top end players left on the board, I thought I'd turn my attention to the 2018 class, where Notre Dame's focus will surely be on the defensive side of the ball and upgrading the talent of the players they're landing... Don't get me wrong, in Darnell Ewell, Donovan Jeter, Pete Werner, David Adams, Saiid Adebo and Thomas Graham (who I think they'look land) I think ND has landed some really quality players at all three levels of the defense. Now they need a new coordinator to develop them. Furthermore, I'm expecting at least one more impact player to come onto the radar late in the process, as is usually the case.

My early watchlist for the 2018 class... Obviously this is always a fluid situation, but here are some names to watch that ND is in good position with.

QB: Phil Jurcovec (5 star, top 100)-committed
RB: Markese Stepp (4 star, top 250)-committed
RB: T.J. Pledger (4 star, top 100)
WR: Jalen Hall (4 star, top 100)
WR: Kamryn Babb (4 star, top 100)
WR: Jahan Dotson (4 star, top 100)
WR: Amon-Ra St. Brown (4 star, top 100)
WR: Micah Jones (4 star)
TE: Zack Kuntz (4 star, top 100)
TE: Mustapha Muhammad (4 star, top 150)
TE: Brevin Jordan (4 star, top 100)
OL: Tommy Brown (4 star, top 100)
OL: Finn Derstine (4 star)
OL: Verdi Brown (4 star, top 150)
OL: Wyatt Blake (4 star)
DT: P.J. Mustipher (4 star, top 100)
DT: Jayson Ademilola (4 star, top 250)
DT: Aneas Hawkins (4 star, top 250)
DT: Juice Scruggs (4 star)
DE: Justin Ademilola (4 star)-committed
DE: Malik Vann (4 star)
DE: Devin O'Rourke (4 star)
LB: Dallas Gant (4 star, top 100)
LB: Matt Bauer (4 star, top 150)-committed
LB: Cameron Mcgrone (4 star, top 250)
LB: Ovie Oghoufo (4 star)-committed
LB: Hugh Davis (3 star)
S: Tyreke Johnson (4 star, top 100)
CB: Brendan Radley-Hiles (4 star, top 100)
CB: Houston Griffith (4 star, top 100)
CB: Asanti Samuel Jr. (4 star, top 250)
CB: Marcus Johnson (4 star)

Obviously it's early, but I don't expect 2018 to be a huge class and Mike Elston and his staff have done a great job of getting top tier prospects in to visit earlier than in the past. ND won't likely settle on many lesser prospects early in the process given the quality start they've had to the class. We'll wait-and-see!

 

[perseverare]

do you have your posts for 2015 & 2016 ?

 

[IrishInOntario]

I'm sure I could find them if I looked... Not the point though, as recruiting is a fluid situation and I make 4 or 5 of these posts each year as recruiting develops. Many of these kids will commit elsewhere and many others will come into the picture. ND already has a number of commits and guys I listed that they lead for or are they top 2 for... Things change. All we can do is discuss the situation as of now.

Mike Elston has undoubtedly done an excellent job of getting ND in on kids early, since he took over. Many 2018 recruits are attending multiple games this season and have already been on campus a number of times.

 

[perseverare]

the list includes top 100

for the periods 13,14,15,16

how many top 100 haVe commited to ND? (a question, not a challenge)

 

[IrishInOntario]

Trust me, we're on the same page relative to the number of top 100 recruits ND will land. The number is usually 3-5 in any given cycle. With that said, I think top 150 is a much better group to go by. There are a ridiculous number of great college players and future NFL'ers that narrowly miss (within 50 spots) that top 100 list. I'm sure you'll concede that, but if not I'll list them for the sake of transparency. Without looking at the composite lists, these are the top 100 and 150 recruits ND has signed in those cycles.

2013
Jaylon Smith (#2)
Eddie Vanderdoes (#6)
Max Redfield (#30)
Greg Bryant (#45)
Hunter Bivin (#97)
Tarean Folston (#104)
Steve Elmer (#112)
Isaac Rochell (#113)
John Montelus (#141)
Cole Luke (#144)

2014
Nyles Morgan (#53)
Quenton Nelson (#62)
Justin Brent (#94)
Alex Bars (#106)
Andrew Trumbetti (#143)

2015
Brandon Wimbush (#35)
Alize Jones (#62)
Tristen Hoge (#89)
Dexter Williams (#94)
Shaun Crawford (#113)
Josh Barajas (#137)

2016
Tommy Kraemer (#27)
Liam Eichenberg (#80)
Javon Mckinley (#111)
Daelin Hayes (#133)

2017 (thus far)
Thomas Graham (#50)
Brock Wright (#68)
Robert Haines (#74)
Cole Kmet (#95)
David Adams (#109)
Darnell Ewell (#141)

2018 (thus far)
Phil Jurcovec (#27)
Matt Bauer (#139)

I'd say, based on history, ND is going to land a few more really quality, top 100 and top 150 recruits... What disturbs me, is the lack retention that senior class had.the top 4 players in that class, according to rankings, never ended up graduating from ND and only Jaylon Smith was a positive story.

 

[perseverare]

the only top 100 DL? did not even show up for 1st day!

so anyone wanting to know how we got where we are just ....

 

[NDIRISH53]

Love what I see from Jurkovec, I wonder IF (big if) Kelly loses his job, if he stays committed. Love the kid at qb

 

[IrishInOntario]

the only top 100 DL? did not even show up for 1st day!

so anyone wanting to know how we got where we are just ....

Who are the top 100 defensive lineman on the followING top 25 scoring defenses...

Wisconsin (#4)
Miami (#5)
Washington (#6)
Army (#9)
Iowa (#13)
Houston (#14)
NC State (#15) tie
Nebraska (#15) tie
Kansas State (#15) tie
Wake Forest (#18)
Boise State (#19)
App State (#20)
Utah (#21)
Troy (#25)

Those represent 14 of the top 25 scoring defenses in the nation this year. I would challenge you to find me more than a meager few top 100 DL playing significant roles on all of those teams, combined... For the record, ND is most likely 5-1and ranked in the topn15 with any of those defenses.

Perse, I've asked you this before and never seem to get an answer. How do all of those programs put quality defenses on the field, without the elite recruits? Is it possible that maybe they have great development and retention of personnel, combined with a sound scheme and a quality DC?

The same way Bob Diaco turned KLM and Prince Shembo into quality pass rushers, without being the coveted top 100 recruits that you're referring too.

 

[zonairish]

Who are the top 100 defensive lineman on the followING top 25 scoring defenses...

Wisconsin (#4)
Miami (#5)
Washington (#6)
Army (#9)
Iowa (#13)
Houston (#14)
NC State (#15) tie
Nebraska (#15) tie
Kansas State (#15) tie
Wake Forest (#18)
Boise State (#19)
App State (#20)
Utah (#21)
Troy (#25)

Those represent 14 of the top 25 scoring defenses in the nation this year. I would challenge you to find me more than a meager few top 100 DL playing significant roles on all of those teams, combined... For the record, ND is most likely 5-1and ranked in the topn15 with any of those defenses.

Perse, I've asked you this before and never seem to get an answer. How do all of those programs put quality defenses on the field, without the elite recruits? Is it possible that maybe they have great development and retention of personnel, combined with a sound scheme and a quality DC?

The same way Bob Diaco turned KLM and Prince Shembo into quality pass rushers, without being the coveted top 100 recruits that you're referring too.

IIO


Its obvious good coaching and consistency can overcome a lack of top 150 talent. However, you still need quality players. Get that 4 or 5 star player with the consistency and good coaching the sky is the limit

 

[IrishInOntario]

IIO


Its obvious good coaching and consistency can overcome a lack of top 150 talent. However, you still need quality players. Get that 4 or 5 star player with the consistency and good coaching the sky is the limit

Nobody would disagree with that. If those players are available to you, you take them. My argument is simply that you could land a series of top 200 DL, develop them and put a damn good front on the field. If you can add a top 100 guy every class or two along the front, and bolster them with other quality recruits, you can have a great front.

 

[perseverare]

Who are the top 100 defensive lineman on the followING top 25 scoring defenses...

Wisconsin (#4)
Miami (#5)
Washington (#6)
Army (#9)
Iowa (#13)
Houston (#14)
NC State (#15) tie
Nebraska (#15) tie
Kansas State (#15) tie
Wake Forest (#18)
Boise State (#19)
App State (#20)
Utah (#21)
Troy (#25)

Those represent 14 of the top 25 scoring defenses in the nation this year. I would challenge you to find me more than a meager few top 100 DL playing significant roles on all of those teams, combined... For the record, ND is most likely 5-1and ranked in the topn15 with any of those defenses.

Perse, I've asked you this before and never seem to get an answer. How do all of those programs put quality defenses on the field, without the elite recruits? Is it possible that maybe they have great development and retention of personnel, combined with a sound scheme and a quality DC?

The same way Bob Diaco turned KLM and Prince Shembo into quality pass rushers, without being the coveted top 100 recruits that you're referring too.

these top defenses you list; how many won championships; You try my patience because you are convincing BUT you are incorrect but posters but in!
Hint: how would the teams fare vs Bama or Clemson? You cannot go only by stats when teams play various schedules. I spent a career in applied mathmatics, so I know the stats and list can be decieving.


Ask yourself, go back to pre season discussions regarding the defense; who had a better perception of how the '16 season would unfold? Why are we doing it again?

 

[zonairish]

these top defenses you list; how many won championships; You try my patience because you are convincing BUT you are incorrect but posters but in!
Hint: how would the teams fare vs Bama or Clemson? You cannot go only by stats when teams play various schedules. I spent a career in applied mathmatics, so I know the stats and list can be decieving.


Ask yourself, go back to pre season discussions regarding the defense; who had a better perception of how the '16 season would unfold? Why are we doing it again?

Perse:

who would of thunk is right. As IIO is stating we need a terrific coordinator that can recruit and teach teach teach.

 

[perseverare]

well if he is out there AND comes to ND the key to success is recruit better talent then coach them up.

But the current roster on the DL is not top 20. And all the spin will not make it so. A magician would be hard pressed to make it so; a great DC can get the D into the top 40; and with this offensive talent that could be enough.

 

[perseverare]

if that is what you read then your understanding is really quite lacking.

Say what you want but damned I am almost spot on ... but you have your hero.

 

[IrishInOntario]

these top defenses you list; how many won championships; You try my patience because you are convincing BUT you are incorrect but posters but in!
Hint: how would the teams fare vs Bama or Clemson? You cannot go only by stats when teams play various schedules. I spent a career in applied mathmatics, so I know the stats and list can be decieving.


Ask yourself, go back to pre season discussions regarding the defense; who had a better perception of how the '16 season would unfold? Why are we doing it again?

And again, your missing my point. When you score the way ND does, you don't need a a 10 PPG defense to make the playoffs. You simply need to keep the points down enough for your offense to win the game for you.

Where were the vaunted Alabama and Clemson defenses in the title game last year when their respective offenses marched up and down the field trading scores on one another?

 

[perseverare]

88

tells us what is this 'plan' you see?
identify the 'playoff talent' that has performed that way (not potential) (fr. get a pass)
tell us of the elite top defensive talent on the way to get in the playoff picture?

tell us please! enlighten us. For sure we want to know when the losing will stop!


(you cannot 'fix' a problem if you deny it's existence.)

 

[zonairish]

well if he is out there AND comes to ND the key to success is recruit better talent then coach them up.

But the current roster on the DL is not top 20. And all the spin will not make it so. A magician would be hard pressed to make it so; a great DC can get the D into the top 40; and with this offensive talent that could be enough.

Wrong The talent is full of mostly 3 and 4 with some 5*. we are not recruiting bottom feeding talent. It is not Alabama talent but ain't bad. Why are we not a defense that at least ranks in 40-60 range at worse case scenario. I realize there were misses in recruiting and some attrition that effected the D's performance but IMO this team should be in that 40-60 range of ranking . In reality we should be able to recruit in a top 25 range on D. With the offense we generally have we would be in the conversation year in year out. We had a void of coaching on the defensive side for 3 years. I bet if we get the right coordinator this D will be on the top 40 side next year.

 

[perseverare]

see, here is the pattern!
the same guys who are always wrong, then are proven wrong, continue to make authoritative statements as if they retain credibility. They just repeat the cycle!

The point to be made, the correct point, is that any DC that comes in needs to be able to resonate with the D prospects and bring in higher talent at the front 7 positions. ND will struggle until that hapoens.
3-4 or whatever the hell alignment one can describe in 5000 words or less is thwarted by the simple rule:
"a plan is only as good as the people executing it"

 

[Bodizephax]

see, here is the pattern!
the same guys who are always wrong, then are proven wrong, continue to make authoritative statements as if they retain credibility. They just repeat the cycle!

The point to be made, the correct point, is that any DC that comes in needs to be able to resonate with the D prospects and bring in higher talent at the front 7 positions. ND will struggle until that hapoens.
3-4 or whatever the hell alignment one can describe in 5000 words or less is thwarted by the simple rule:
"a plan is only as good as the people executing it"

Purse is like a monkey with a machine gun !!! Posting his crap all over the place !!!

 

[perseverare]

Bodi

"the Ultimate Moron"; the single poster who is THE poster boy for
"posters with no credibility" will now give instruction, yep! listen to him a lose a few brain cells with every post read!

 

[zonairish]

Purse is like a monkey with a machine gun !!! Posting his crap all over the place !!!

Bodie, Glad to see you once again! Yes, I tried to ignore Perse, insult. Just to move on. When I go to the zoo the worse part of any zoo is the monkey exhibits. Those sh** eating , sh** throwing animals are disgusting. With Perse, throwing his crap and eating it sometimes makes these threads stink

 

[Bodizephax]

Bodi

"the Ultimate Moron"; the single poster who is THE poster boy for
"posters with no credibility" will now give instruction, yep! listen to him a lose a few brain cells with every post read!

 

[IrishInOntario]

Perse,

That is such a single-minded viewpoint. In two years of the college football playoff, we've already seen 3 teams (Michigan State, Oklahoma and Oregon) make the playoffs without top tier recruits in the front 7. Solid recruits, but guys who were developed, rather than 5 star, instant impact types. Evidence? Sure.

Oregon 2014 front seven

DE: Deforest Buckner (4 star, WDE #15, #230 comp)
DT: Alex Balducci (4 star, DT #10, #205 comp)
DT: Arik Armstead (5 star, OT #1, #14 comp)
DE: Tony Washington (3 star, WDE #43, #803 comp)
LB: Rodney Hardrick (3 star, OLB #60, #739 comp)
LB: Derrick Malone (3 star, S #47, #559 comp)
LB: Tyson Coleman (3 star, OLB #23, #334 comp)

Total: 3.57 star average
Total: #412 comp average

Michigan State 2015 front seven

DE: Shilique Calhoun (3 star, #65 SDE, #942 comp)
DT: Montez Sweat (3 star, #55 TE, #1338 comp)
DT: Joel Heath (3 star, SDE #29, #414 comp)
DE: Lawrence Thomas (4 star, WDE #3, #46 comp)
LB: Darien Harris (3 star, S 45, #624 comp)
LB: Riley Bullough (3 star, #63 OLB, #686 comp)
LB: Ed Davis (3 star, #51 OLB, #594 comp)

Total: 3.14 star average
Total: #663 comp average

Oklahoma 2015 front seven

DE: Matt Dimon (4 star, #16 SDE, #284 comp)
NG: Jordan Wade (4 star, #10 DT, #122 comp)
DE: Charles Tapper (3 star, WDE #23, #356 comp)
LB: Devante Bond (3 star, OLB #12, #161 comp)
LB: Dominique Alexander (3 star, #143 WR, #1032 comp)
LB: Jordan Evans (3 star, #96 OLB, #1171 comp)
LB: Eric Strike (3 star, #24 S, #370 comp)

Total: 3.28 star average
Total: #499 comp average

Look at those shockingly low star averages and comp verges among those 3 playoff team's front sevens. Among their starting groups, those 3 teams had a combined one, 5 star player, and two top 100 players.

Now lets compare those 3 front 7's to Notre Dame's in 2016.

DE: Isaac Rochell (4 star, #9 SDE, #113 comp)
DT: Jaron Jones (4 star, #15 OT, #150 comp)
DT: Jerry Tillery (4 star, #11, #158 comp)
DE: Andrew Trumbetti (4 star, #9 SDE, #143 comp)
LB: Asmar Bilal (4 star, #6 ILB, #184 comp)
LB: Nyles Morgan (4 star, #3 ILB, #53 comp)
LB: James Onwualu (4 star, #44 WR, #304 comp)

Total: 4.0 star average
Total: #157 comp average

Explain how Notre Dame has a substantially higher star average than all three of those playoff teams, and a ridiculously higher comp average than all three of those playoff teams, yet still plays much worse defense? Those 3 teams, which represent half the teams that have been to the playoffs since it's inception, prove that DEVELOPMENT and personnel retention is just as important, if not more so than simple recruiting rankings. Nobody doubts that recruiting at a high level makes things much easier. You and I have also agreed that part of ND's problem is that 5 of the 6 WDE that ND recruited previous to last year, are no longer with the program. However, my overall explanation for the poor defense, contrary to the recruiting issue that you propose (which is refuted by the 3 playoff teams in the past 2 years that have had substantially less star power, and the 14 top 25 defenses I presented to you that also have less "talent" than Notre Dame) is this...

1. ND's defensive coordinator ran a terrible, archaic scheme designed to rush pocket passers using 5 and 7 step drops in the NFL. It was also fundamentally unsound and designed to be executed by NFL talent across the board. Furthermore, it was painfully difficult to learn for college athletes that don't have the countless hours to study and watch film that the NFL players do.

2. Skill development and fundamental development was not a priority for VanGorder, a common theme with current and former NFL DC's. There is inherently too much focus on scheme, due to the fact that they are used to having ready made NFL'ers, who colleges and universities have already developed. Many NFL teams do very little in the way of skill development. Their focus is on game plan, scheme and matchups.

3. Undoubtedly, the loss of 5/6 of ND's WDE'S due to attrition has hurt the pass rush. ND has two talented freshman pass rushers in Hayes and Okwara, but neither is ready to be a consistent force. This front would be much more sound if a Kolin Hill and a Jhonathan Williams had stuck around. Recruiting isn't just about compiling talent, but retaining and developing it as well.

4. ND is playing as many as 4 freshman in the secondary at the same time, and they are rotating in an SS who has torn both ACLs and should be playing linebacker. No team wants freshman in their secondary, let alone 4 of them. The issue is compounded when we come to find out that Todd Lyght was not given adequate time under BVG to teach fundamentals and technique to freshman, nor to run his own film room, because all the focus was on scheme implementation. It does not matter if you know where to be, if you can't make a play when you get there... It's insane to me that with 7 freshman DB's in the 2-deep, there wasn't maximum time allotted to skill development.

JMO. I'm sure you'let tell me I'm wrong ... Regardless, I'll be happy to read your perspective.

 

[zonairish]

IIO, great summary! you put it out there in a thorough and logical way. Hard to disagree unless you are Perse.

 

[Harpo Marxist]

Perse,

That is such a single-minded viewpoint. In two years of the college football playoff, we've already seen 3 teams (Michigan State, Oklahoma and Oregon) make the playoffs without top tier recruits in the front 7. Solid recruits, but guys who were developed, rather than 5 star, instant impact types. Evidence? Sure.

Oregon 2014 front seven

DE: Deforest Buckner (4 star, WDE #15, #230 comp)
DT: Alex Balducci (4 star, DT #10, #205 comp)
DT: Arik Armstead (5 star, OT #1, #14 comp)
DE: Tony Washington (3 star, WDE #43, #803 comp)
LB: Rodney Hardrick (3 star, OLB #60, #739 comp)
LB: Derrick Malone (3 star, S #47, #559 comp)
LB: Tyson Coleman (3 star, OLB #23, #334 comp)

Total: 3.57 star average
Total: #412 comp average

Michigan State 2015 front seven

DE: Shilique Calhoun (3 star, #65 SDE, #942 comp)
DT: Montez Sweat (3 star, #55 TE, #1338 comp)
DT: Joel Heath (3 star, SDE #29, #414 comp)
DE: Lawrence Thomas (4 star, WDE #3, #46 comp)
LB: Darien Harris (3 star, S 45, #624 comp)
LB: Riley Bullough (3 star, #63 OLB, #686 comp)
LB: Ed Davis (3 star, #51 OLB, #594 comp)

Total: 3.14 star average
Total: #663 comp average

Oklahoma 2015 front seven

DE: Matt Dimon (4 star, #16 SDE, #284 comp)
NG: Jordan Wade (4 star, #10 DT, #122 comp)
DE: Charles Tapper (3 star, WDE #23, #356 comp)
LB: Devante Bond (3 star, OLB #12, #161 comp)
LB: Dominique Alexander (3 star, #143 WR, #1032 comp)
LB: Jordan Evans (3 star, #96 OLB, #1171 comp)
LB: Eric Strike (3 star, #24 S, #370 comp)

Total: 3.28 star average
Total: #499 comp average

Look at those shockingly low star averages and comp verges among those 3 playoff team's front sevens. Among their starting groups, those 3 teams had a combined one, 5 star player, and two top 100 players.

Now lets compare those 3 front 7's to Notre Dame's in 2016.

DE: Isaac Rochell (4 star, #9 SDE, #113 comp)
DT: Jaron Jones (4 star, #15 OT, #150 comp)
DT: Jerry Tillery (4 star, #11, #158 comp)
DE: Andrew Trumbetti (4 star, #9 SDE, #143 comp)
LB: Asmar Bilal (4 star, #6 ILB, #184 comp)
LB: Nyles Morgan (4 star, #3 ILB, #53 comp)
LB: James Onwualu (4 star, #44 WR, #304 comp)

Total: 4.0 star average
Total: #157 comp average

Explain how Notre Dame has a substantially higher star average than all three of those playoff teams, and a ridiculously higher comp average than all three of those playoff teams, yet still plays much worse defense? Those 3 teams, which represent half the teams that have been to the playoffs since it's inception, prove that DEVELOPMENT and personnel retention is just as important, if not more so than simple recruiting rankings. Nobody doubts that recruiting at a high level makes things much easier. You and I have also agreed that part of ND's problem is that 5 of the 6 WDE that ND recruited previous to last year, are no longer with the program. However, my overall explanation for the poor defense, contrary to the recruiting issue that you propose (which is refuted by the 3 playoff teams in the past 2 years that have had substantially less star power, and the 14 top 25 defenses I presented to you that also have less "talent" than Notre Dame) is this...

1. ND's defensive coordinator ran a terrible, archaic scheme designed to rush pocket passers using 5 and 7 step drops in the NFL. It was also fundamentally unsound and designed to be executed by NFL talent across the board. Furthermore, it was painfully difficult to learn for college athletes that don't have the countless hours to study and watch film that the NFL players do.

2. Skill development and fundamental development was not a priority for VanGorder, a common theme with current and former NFL DC's. There is inherently too much focus on scheme, due to the fact that they are used to having ready made NFL'ers, who colleges and universities have already developed. Many NFL teams do very little in the way of skill development. Their focus is on game plan, scheme and matchups.

3. Undoubtedly, the loss of 5/6 of ND's WDE'S due to attrition has hurt the pass rush. ND has two talented freshman pass rushers in Hayes and Okwara, but neither is ready to be a consistent force. This front would be much more sound if a Kolin Hill and a Jhonathan Williams had stuck around. Recruiting isn't just about compiling talent, but retaining and developing it as well.

4. ND is playing as many as 4 freshman in the secondary at the same time, and they are rotating in an SS who has torn both ACLs and should be playing linebacker. No team wants freshman in their secondary, let alone 4 of them. The issue is compounded when we come to find out that Todd Lyght was not given adequate time under BVG to teach fundamentals and technique to freshman, nor to run his own film room, because all the focus was on scheme implementation. It does not matter if you know where to be, if you can't make a play when you get there... It's insane to me that with 7 freshman DB's in the 2-deep, there wasn't maximum time allotted to skill development.

JMO. I'm sure you'let tell me I'm wrong ... Regardless, I'll be happy to read your perspective.

This analysis appears painfully familiar....on defense BVG focused on "schematic advantage"?

 

[ellobo]

Who are the top 100 defensive lineman on the followING top 25 scoring defenses...

Wisconsin (#4)
Miami (#5)
Washington (#6)
Army (#9)
Iowa (#13)
Houston (#14)
NC State (#15) tie
Nebraska (#15) tie
Kansas State (#15) tie
Wake Forest (#18)
Boise State (#19)
App State (#20)
Utah (#21)
Troy (#25)

Those represent 14 of the top 25 scoring defenses in the nation this year. I would challenge you to find me more than a meager few top 100 DL playing significant roles on all of those teams, combined... For the record, ND is most likely 5-1and ranked in the topn15 with any of those defenses.

Perse, I've asked you this before and never seem to get an answer. How do all of those programs put quality defenses on the field, without the elite recruits? Is it possible that maybe they have great development and retention of personnel, combined with a sound scheme and a quality DC?

The same way Bob Diaco turned KLM and Prince Shembo into quality pass rushers, without being the coveted top 100 recruits that you're referring too.

It's a bit of an anomaly because Michigan has recruited a few top 100 DLs...but worth noting that the starting four are:

WDE: Charlton 4* (#237 overall)
NT: Glasgow walk-on
DT: Hurst 3*
SDE: Wormley 3* (though he was a 4* on other sites)

I'm a star gazer, in general, and should also point that the one true underclassman (Mone is a rs soph so in his 3rd year) who is in the regular rotation was a 5*/#1 player overall. So how did Michigan end up with one of the best lines in the country?

Well, Glasgow didn't start playing FB until late and maybe is a big time recruit if he started early. Hurst is from Mass, played against extremely week competition and thus not given much credit by rivals. Wormley was just a mistake by rivals. I know fan bases think all their recruits are underrated but when a guy is a 4* everywhere else and highly coveted by the instate buckeyes it is fair to believe that. So my first point is there is sometimes more to the story.

My bigger point, though, is Michigan built the line by loading up on numbers (imagine if Henry didn't declare early for the draft and was still apart of this group). In a two year period we over recruited the position and let the best man win. Now I'm not suggesting stars don't matter...I'd take a legit 5* like Gary over getting 2 or 3 4*s in a given year. However, beyond the few true sureshot studs I'll take numbers as long as they are still in the same neighborhood. For example I'd take two guys ranked around say #200 overall over one guy ranked around #100. I'd like my chances of one of the two guys emerging vs. banking my hopes on a single guy even if he has the distinction of being top 100.

 

[IrishInOntario]

This analysis appears painfully familiar....on defense BVG focused on "schematic advantage"?

You got it. Same pro mentality as Weis which rarely works at the college level. The average person, who watches a college football game on Saturday and a NFL football game on Sunday, often has no idea about the level of complexity that goes into an NFL scheme and NFL preparation for a game...

Quick story... When I was at U Ottawa, Coach Barresi brought his staff with him to visit Jim Caldwell's staff in Detroit. The two head coaches are close friends and coach Caldwell was kind enough to afford us a 3 day period during the off season to shadow his assistants and learn from NFL coaches. It was an awesome experience and in those 72 hours I learned more about football than in any period in my life since my first day in little league football... Here is the catch. As a staff, we concluded that very little of what we learned was actually going to be helpful to us at the college level because it would be extremely difficult to translate the complexity of what we learned, to kids aged 18-22. Our DC learned a new blitz or two that he liked and a coverage rotation that he successfully implemented, but in reality college football is very much about remaining fundamentally sound and not having the structure of your defense be manipulated by what the offense is doing. Then it comes back to the basic principles of blocking, tackoing, defeating blocks and playing with leverage. In NFL football, nearly all their time and effort is put into discovering matchup advantages and scheming in ways to exploit them... Much like that tactical advantage Weis bragged about. In college football, however, the team that does all the basic things better than their opponent, will almost always win the game. Who has the better, more developed players? Who plays with more confidence, swagger and intensity? Who knows their scheme to the point of being second nature, so they can play fast, instead of thinking? Who understands the weaknesses of their scheme, so they can understand how teams will try to attack it?..Those are things that college coaches are, and should be, focused on. NFL coaches are focused on particulars far beyond that, because all of those things I mentioned are neccessary givens.

 

[Telx1]

IIO, interesting added perspective on the pro approach. Been critical of the oft mentioned complexity of BVG's scheme and the poor on field fundamentals on weekly display, but never really considered that BVG's pro experience would lead him to believe he could coach schematics and ignore teaching fundamentals at the college level. He may just be wired to love the intellectual schematic chess game above all other factors that put a good defense on the field, and thus is better suited for the pro game.

 

[zonairish]

IIO , I guess that is why a lot coaches run the spread, or even a pro set offense (reduced set) but in a lot of cases you can anticipate the call. the winner of most called plays is who executes better That said talent does play a part in this but not as much as we like to think.

 

[IrishInOntario]

IIO, interesting added perspective on the pro approach. Been critical of the oft mentioned complexity of BVG's scheme and the poor on field fundamentals on weekly display, but never really considered that BVG's pro experience would lead him to believe he could coach schematics and ignore teaching fundamentals at the college level. He may just be wired to love the intellectual schematic chess game above all other factors that put a good defense on the field, and thus is better suited for the pro game.

Coaches often come from an educational background. They are essentially teachers, in a different realm. People who get involved in teaching often tend to also be life long learners and are always striving to learn more. My experience has been that sometimes when coaches move to a higher level and expand their knowledge, they can sometimes struggle to revert back to what is neccessary at a lesser level because of their new wealth of knowledge. At other times, they convince themselves that they can teach their advanced schemes at a lower level and create a mismatch. Essentially, with a guy like VanGorder, I think he's probably a brilliant football mind, but he's also obsessed with trying to beat the opposing 11, plus their coaches, by himself, and fails to understand the strengths and limitations of his personnel.

Quite frankly, I think he's bored trying to coach a college defense and instead, wants to try to teach college kids how to stop Tom Brady and the Patriots... Which is irrelevant and leads to getting your butt canned.

Doesn't matter how smart you are. What matters is how well your kids play.

 

[zonairish]

I am watching NC St / Clemson game. I am not sure what the star rating on NC ST Defense is. I can not believe they are higher ranked by stars then the irish. however, For the most part they tackle well play a terrific run stop D and the overall D seems fundamentally sound. Clemson is likewise fundamentally sound. I would expect Clemson to win but a break here and there you never know

 

[IrishInOntario]

I am watching NC St / Clemson game. I am not sure what the star rating on NC ST Defense is. I can not believe they are higher ranked by stars then the irish. however, For the most part they tackle well play a terrific run stop D and the overall D seems fundamentally sound. Clemson is likewise fundamentally sound. I would expect Clemson to win but a break here and there you never know

Their star rating is nowhere close to ND's, but NC State has done a great job retaining and developing their talent. They have one of the best D-lines in the country. Those guys are NFL'ers. The Carolinas are packed with underrated prospects that thrive at the coastal schools, despite their lacknowledge star rating and sometimes even offer lists.

 

[Grabaka]

Nice analysis, but does recruiting really matter when the coaches can't develop these players? We're full of 4 star, high 3 star, with a couple of 5 star players sprinkled in and still can't beat and struggle against lesser teams.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Nice analysis, but does recruiting really matter when the coaches can't develop these players? We're full of 4 star, high 3 star, with a couple of 5 star players sprinkled in and still can't beat and struggle against lesser teams.

Bingo!