Inside Marcus Freeman's Notre Dame Football Recruiting Overhaul

[NDSMC78]

I think the issue is incompetence, naivety, and just bad vision/strategic direction at the highest levels of the institution (athletic director, university president, and BoT level).

Based on what? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was incompetent? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was naïve? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was bad vision? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was bad strategic direction? You made the claims. Now back them up.

 

[chaseball]

Based on what? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was incompetent? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was naïve? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was bad vision? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was bad strategic direction? You made the claims. Now back them up.

The football program has been completely ran over at the highest level for the last 25+ years with zero progress made despite all of the advantages as a mega wealthy tier 1 blue blood in college football.

 

[NDSMC78]

The football program has been completely ran over at the highest level for the last 25+ years with zero progress made.

That's a general conclusion unsupported by a single fact. And the reality is that you are dead wrong. ND has been in the playoffs 3 times in the past 15 years. ND has had 8 ten win seasons in the past 15 years. Those facts (and they are facts) belie your claim that ND has been completely ran (sic) over for the past 25 years.
But ever more ridiculous is your failure to address my questions above. I asked you for specific examples of what the AD, Jenkins and the BOT did which were incompetent, naïve, or indicated bad vision or bad strategic direction. In response, you cited not one single example of any of them.

The obvious fact is that you are unhappy and dissatisfied with the fact that ND has not met your lofty expectations. The obvious fact is that you are just lashing out at the AD, Jenkins and BOT because you don't like ND's winning percentage in recent years. You are a sad excuse for a ND fan.

 

[NDSMC78]

The football program has been completely ran over at the highest level for the last 25+ years with zero progress made despite all of the advantages as a mega wealthy tier 1 blue blood in college football.

Even with your feeble edit, you still didn't address any of the questions I raised. Just pathetic.

 

[4-4-3]

Just a couple of cycles ago (Freeman's first class) we were favored for three 5* recruits and had at least 2 of them signed at one point or another (Keone Keeley and Peyton Bowen).

I dont know what mysterious barriers you are referring to. ND offers just as many of the top 100 as their peers do. ND grey shirts, sends out offers that are rescinded or not actionable, they make academic concessions for their athletes, they redshirt, they entice prospects with NIL, they have an NIL collective, they accept transfers, and do everything everybody else does already they are usually just really late to the party playing it ultra conservatively and safe (which is just bad leadership).

What evidence exists that ND isn't anywhere near the wheel?

I think the issue is incompetence, naivety, and just bad vision/strategic direction at the highest levels of the institution (athletic director, university president, and BoT level).

There's also just a lot of excuse making going on instead of being able to take criticism, self reflect, and adjust. (More bad leadership).

It's simple. Either you are providing the resources necessary to field a tier 1 football product or you are not. ND charges tier 1 football product money, make tier 1 football product revenues, and promise a tier 1 football product to their fans but have not delivered on that promise in decades.

When is the last time ND put together a national championship quality roster? What is the impediment specifically?

Your argument seems bifurcated.

You list all of the inducements ND employs to ACCOMMODATE the best players, having started your post by citing three 5-stars that ND offered.

Fine.

But did any of them sign?

Of course, ND OFFERS the best players. But if you DON’T CLOSE, what difference does it make. RIGHT?

Then, making your own counter-argument, you cite ND’s incompetence, naivete, bad vision/strategic direction and excuse-making; as well as its inability to take criticism, reflect, adjust or make adequate resources available.

In other words, you see, on one hand, ND as plugged-in enough to know how to offer – ALBEIT NOT SECURE – three prime recruits, and yet, on the other, as being so hopelessly out of touch that it can’t ATTRACT ENOUGH OF THEM OR RETAIN ENOUGH OF THE ONES WHO’VE COMMITTED – to make a difference.

SO, WHICH IS IT?

And where does the FRACTURE occur? With all of those inducements you’ve cited, ND should have as good a chance as its rivals of getting these kids.

My take?

IT’S NOT THE BEST FIT FOR THEM.

Many recruits – and it’s happened FOR YEARS – give ND a serious look or even, for a time, commit. But then they WAIVER and head instead for schools where LIFE ISN’T SO RIGOROUS. These are TEENAGERS.

Many are also not 4 and 40 guys. And that’s fine. Because FEW ARE.

Trouble, is THOSE are the guys – the 4 and 40’s – ND wants. Is it the best strategy for winning an NC? HARDLY!

But since ND’s goal is to remain an academic institution first -- something scores of the most talented recruits neither CARE A WHIT ABOUT, nor are willing to make the necessary sacrifices on behalf of – THEY DON’T SIGN.

And that’s what I mean by BARRIERS.

You’re viewing ND, the football team, IN ISOLATION. And since there’s a lot more to ND’s MISSION STATEMENT than that, your perspective doesn’t hold up. And while I’m sure ND’s admin would delight in winning a CFB NC, it’s hardly what matters most to them.

And that's no different from any other university where MOST of the student body is academically SUPERIOR.

What you’re asking ND to do is simply NOT in its DNA.

And, as I've tried to explain, it's a DNA mix that ND doesn't share with many 5-stars.

ND recruits them -- it's like panning for gold -- but very few nuggets turn up.

Most people get it.

 

[Golson5]

Your argument seems bifurcated.

You list all of the inducements ND employs to ACCOMMODATE the best players, having started your post by citing three 5-stars that ND offered.

Fine.

But did any of them sign?

Of course, ND OFFERS the best players. But if you DON’T CLOSE, what difference does it make. RIGHT?

Then, making your own counter-argument, you cite ND’s incompetence, naivete, bad vision/strategic direction and excuse-making; as well as its inability to take criticism, reflect, adjust or make adequate resources available.

In other words, you see, on one hand, ND as plugged-in enough to know how to offer – ALBEIT NOT SECURE – three prime recruits, and yet, on the other, as being so hopelessly out of touch that it can’t ATTRACT ENOUGH OF THEM OR RETAIN ENOUGH OF THE ONES WHO’VE COMMITTED – to make a difference.

SO, WHICH IS IT?

And where does the FRACTURE occur? With all of those inducements you’ve cited, ND should have as good a chance as its rivals of getting these kids.

My take?

IT’S NOT THE BEST FIT FOR THEM.

Many recruits – and it’s happened FOR YEARS – give ND a serious look or even, for a time, commit. But then they WAIVER and head instead for schools where LIFE ISN’T SO RIGOROUS. These are TEENAGERS.

Many are also not 4 and 40 guys. And that’s fine. Because FEW ARE.

Trouble, is THOSE are the guys – the 4 and 40’s – ND wants. Is it the best strategy for winning an NC? HARDLY!

But since ND’s goal is to remain an academic institution first -- something scores of the most talented recruits neither CARE A WHIT ABOUT, nor are willing to make the necessary sacrifices on behalf of – THEY DON’T SIGN.

And that’s what I mean by BARRIERS.

You’re viewing ND, the football team, IN ISOLATION. And since there’s a lot more to ND’s MISSION STATEMENT than that, your perspective doesn’t hold up. And while I’m sure ND’s admin would delight in winning a CFB NC, it’s hardly what matters most to them.

And that's no different from any other university where MOST of the student body is academically SUPERIOR.

What you’re asking ND to do is simply NOT in its DNA.

And, as I've tried to explain, it's a DNA mix that ND doesn't share with many 5-stars.

ND recruits them -- it's like panning for gold -- but very few nuggets turn up.

Most people get it.

did you eat paint chips as a kid ?

 

[chaseball]

Your argument seems bifurcated.

You list all of the inducements ND employs to ACCOMMODATE the best players, having started your post by citing three 5-stars that ND offered.

Fine.

But did any of them sign?

Of course, ND OFFERS the best players. But if you DON’T CLOSE, what difference does it make. RIGHT?

Then, making your own counter-argument, you cite ND’s incompetence, naivete, bad vision/strategic direction and excuse-making; as well as its inability to take criticism, reflect, adjust or make adequate resources available.

In other words, you see, on one hand, ND as plugged-in enough to know how to offer – ALBEIT NOT SECURE – three prime recruits, and yet, on the other, as being so hopelessly out of touch that it can’t ATTRACT ENOUGH OF THEM OR RETAIN ENOUGH OF THE ONES WHO’VE COMMITTED – to make a difference.

SO, WHICH IS IT?

And where does the FRACTURE occur? With all of those inducements you’ve cited, ND should have as good a chance as its rivals of getting these kids.

My take?

IT’S NOT THE BEST FIT FOR THEM.

Many recruits – and it’s happened FOR YEARS – give ND a serious look or even, for a time, commit. But then they WAIVER and head instead for schools where LIFE ISN’T SO RIGOROUS. These are TEENAGERS.

Many are also not 4 and 40 guys. And that’s fine. Because FEW ARE.

Trouble, is THOSE are the guys – the 4 and 40’s – ND wants. Is it the best strategy for winning an NC? HARDLY!

But since ND’s goal is to remain an academic institution first -- something scores of the most talented recruits neither CARE A WHIT ABOUT, nor are willing to make the necessary sacrifices on behalf of – THEY DON’T SIGN.

And that’s what I mean by BARRIERS.

You’re viewing ND, the football team, IN ISOLATION. And since there’s a lot more to ND’s MISSION STATEMENT than that, your perspective doesn’t hold up. And while I’m sure ND’s admin would delight in winning a CFB NC, it’s hardly what matters most to them.

And that's no different from any other university where MOST of the student body is academically SUPERIOR.

What you’re asking ND to do is simply NOT in its DNA.

And, as I've tried to explain, it's a DNA mix that ND doesn't share with many 5-stars.

ND recruits them -- it's like panning for gold -- but very few nuggets turn up.

Most people get it.

ND HAS SIGNED TOP 5 CLASSES in the PAST and has DOMINATED RECRUITING IN THE PAST. They have signed the best prospects at the most exclusive positions. They have recruited among the tier 1 throughout their long and storied history.

Even as early as 2005-2009 (Charlie Weis) -- during the height of the ESPN/BCS era and during a time when people were using identical excuses to the ones you are using here -- ND was able to recruit the biggest prospects at the biggest positions in the sport in big numbers. The player development sucked under Charlie Weis and he was a failed coach, but he put to bed the rumors that ND was too sophisticated of an institution to attract NFL-bound talent in the highest tier.

What has changed in the last 1.5 decades that suddenly makes ND some impossible fit for the games best prospects ( other than it being a super convenient excuse that allows the university/athletic department to not be held accountable for its incompetence of course) ?

 

[NDSMC78]

ND HAS SIGNED TOP 5 CLASSES in the PAST and has DOMINATED RECRUITING IN THE PAST. They have signed the best prospects at the most exclusive positions. They have recruited among the tier 1 throughout their long and storied history.

Even as early as 2005-2009 (Charlie Weis) -- during the height of the ESPN/BCS era and during a time when people were using identical excuses to the ones you are using here -- ND was able to recruit the biggest prospects at the biggest positions in the sport in big numbers. The player development sucked under Charlie Weis and he was a failed coach, but he put to bed the rumors that ND was too sophisticated of an institution to attract NFL-bound talent in the highest tier.

What has changed in the last 1.5 decades that suddenly makes ND some impossible fit for the games best prospects ( other than it being a super convenient excuse that allows the university/athletic department to not be held accountable for its incompetence of course) ?

You are one of the wealthiest football organizations in college. You have the brand, the prestige, the story, the public attention, the high ratings, the sold out stadiums, one of the most lucrative products in an extremely lucrative sport, etc. It's really frustrating that you can be so well positioned/set up so perfectly for success but yet fail so miserably to execute/convert. And then instead of self criticizing and and fixing the problems, you'd rather make excuses and use heavy handed PR to try to control the message.

No matter how many times you tell him, no many how many ways, chase remains clueless. He just has no comprehension of what Notre Dame is. He refuses to listen to anybody but himself.

 

[chaseball]

No matter how many times you tell him, no many how many ways, chase remains clueless. He just has no comprehension of what Notre Dame is. He refuses to listen to anybody but himself.

I don't see good logic behind the counter points that are being made. I'm not going to accept bad logic just because its popular to do so.

I also find it super curious how trying to hold the football product to notre dame's own national championship standard somehow makes me an outsider/bad fan in the eyes of a lot of posters here. It makes no sense.

 

[NDSMC78]

I don't see good logic behind the counter points that are being made. I'm not going to accept bad logic just because its popular to do so.

I also find it super curious how trying to hold the football product to notre dame's own national championship standard somehow makes me an outsider/bad fan in the eyes of a lot of posters here. It makes no sense.

The only bad logic here is that employed by you.

Here's your prior post: I think the issue is incompetence, naivety, and just bad vision/strategic direction at the highest levels of the institution (athletic director, university president, and BoT level).

I have asked you multiple times to provide examples to support any of your claims. You have failed to cite even a single example. You shoot off your mouth, but you have nothing to say.

 

[sjb75]

The only bad logic here is that employed by you.

Here's your prior post: I think the issue is incompetence, naivety, and just bad vision/strategic direction at the highest levels of the institution (athletic director, university president, and BoT level).

I have asked you multiple times to provide examples to support any of your claims. You have failed to cite even a single example. You shoot off your mouth, but you have nothing to say.

You're responding to an incessant troll.

 

[chaseball]

The only bad logic here is that employed by you.

Here's your prior post: I think the issue is incompetence, naivety, and just bad vision/strategic direction at the highest levels of the institution (athletic director, university president, and BoT level).

I have asked you multiple times to provide examples to support any of your claims. You have failed to cite even a single example. You shoot off your mouth, but you have nothing to say.

My examples are the bad football product. They are ALL OVER youtube. Pick any season since the Lou Holtz era. The football product isn't competitive at the highest level of the sport and hasn't been (and for NO GOOD REASON) since the Lou Holtz era. Some of those years it was due to bad talent, others due to bad coaching, and some due to both. The university leadership at the highest level IS responsible for this lack of competitiveness.

ND is deceiving its fans by promoting a tier 1 product, yet being completely and utterly out classed by competing organizations actually investing in a tier 1 product.

Furthermore, the 85 man roster at Notre Dame is a failure. No other way to put it. It's a comparative failure when you look at just how much of the top talent ND is conceding to other organizations. The university leadership is responsible for this failure.

Look at the team talent composite ratings at 247 (your talent in your football organization is BY FAR THE MOST EXACTING THING TO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP WINNING) and see it for yourself. This isn't opinion, these are facts. Notre Dame isn't even playing college football in the major leagues. How in the world are you supposed to win football games when your competitors in the playoffs have more 5 star/top 25 talent in their organization that you have of top 100 talent in yours?

What leadership is so naive as to think they are competing for national championships in football when the talent disparity is this massive?

Would you expect the chicago bears to compete in any meaningful way with other NFL football organizations if they simply refused to draft until after pick 100 ? "we don't want to draft until the mid 3rd round, ever, thank you!"

And i haven't seen a SINGLE GOOD EXCUSE that somehow makes ND immune to the same challenges every other institution is facing in the battle of building the best football product in the country. ND has a massive head start in this race too and are getting lapped/dominated by smarter, more ambitious, more cunning leadership at other institutions.

MY PROOF IS NDs aggregate F+ rating of 15th since the start of the Brian Kelly era.
MY PROOF IS THE 247 TALENT DATABASES since the Charlie Weis era.
MY PROOF IS THE 1-15 RECORD VS TOP 5 COMPETITION WHILE BEING ON THE WRONG END OF A -300 POINT DIFFERENTIAL OVER THE LAST 20 SOME YEARS

MY PROOF IS THE LACK OF IMPROVEMENT IN ANY OF THESE KEY INDICATORS OVER THE ENTIRE COURSE OF THE JACK SWARBRICK AND FATHER JENKINS ERA.

AND YOU DONT GET A FREE PASS IN THESE KEY INDICATORS SIMPLY FOR HAVING A BETTER ACADEMIC REPUTATION THAN YOUR COMPETITORS.

 

[NDSMC78]

My examples are the bad football product. They are ALL OVER youtube. Pick any season since the Lou Holtz era. The football product isn't competitive at the highest level of the sport and hasn't been (and for NO GOOD REASON) since the Lou Holtz era. Some of those years it was due to bad talent, others due to bad coaching, and some due to both. The university leadership at the highest level IS responsible for this lack of competitiveness.

This is categorically false. Notre Dame has not had "bad football product" since the Lou Holtz era. ND went to the NC game in 2012. ND went to the playoffs in 2018 and 2020. ND has had eight 10 win seasons since 2012. Bad football teams don't go to the playoffs. Bad football teams don't repeatedly win 10 games. So you are either deliberately lying or you don't know what a good football team is.

Beyond that, I asked you for specific examples of your complaints about ND. Here is my post:

What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was incompetent? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was naïve? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was bad vision? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was bad strategic direction?

You still have not answered these questions. And in fact, your only apparently answer to those questions is the conclusory statement the "examples are the bad football product." And as we have seen, that assertion is either a lie or you don't understand what a good football team is.

You are embarrassing yourself yet again. You try to talk on this board as though you are talking to your junior high friends who won't challenge your nonsense. Your kind of half baked and unsupported claims are going to be destroyed here. It's time you realize that.

 

[sjb75]

This is categorically false. Notre Dame has not had "bad football product" since the Lou Holtz era. ND went to the NC game in 2012. ND went to the playoffs in 2018 and 2020. ND has had eight 10 win seasons since 2012. Bad football teams don't go to the playoffs. Bad football teams don't repeatedly win 10 games. So you are either deliberately lying or you don't know what a good football team is.

Beyond that, I asked you for specific examples of your complaints about ND. Here is my post:

What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was incompetent? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was naïve? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was bad vision? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was bad strategic direction?

You still have not answered these questions. And in fact, your only apparently answer to those questions is the conclusory statement the "examples are the bad football product." And as we have seen, that assertion is either a lie or you don't understand what a good football team is.

You are embarrassing yourself yet again. You try to talk on this board as though you are talking to your junior high friends who won't challenge your nonsense. Your kind of half baked and unsupported claims are going to be destroyed here. It's time you realize that.

A waste of time.

 

[chaseball]

This is categorically false. Notre Dame has not had "bad football product" since the Lou Holtz era. ND went to the NC game in 2012. ND went to the playoffs in 2018 and 2020. ND has had eight 10 win seasons since 2012. Bad football teams don't go to the playoffs. Bad football teams don't repeatedly win 10 games. So you are either deliberately lying or you don't know what a good football team is.

Beyond that, I asked you for specific examples of your complaints about ND. Here is my post:

What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was incompetent? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was naïve? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was bad vision? What specifically did the AD, Jenkins and the BOT do that you believe was bad strategic direction?

You still have not answered these questions. And in fact, your only apparently answer to those questions is the conclusory statement the "examples are the bad football product." And as we have seen, that assertion is either a lie or you don't understand what a good football team is.

You are embarrassing yourself yet again. You try to talk on this board as though you are talking to your junior high friends who won't challenge your nonsense. Your kind of half baked and unsupported claims are going to be destroyed here. It's time you realize that.

So now you are trying to turn this into a debate about semantics.

When I say "bad" i mean not good enough to achieve its goal of winning a national championship or even contending for one in any realistic way. By being bullied out of virtually all top 100 talent in every recruiting cycle over the entire jack swarbrick and father jenkins era. And making it to the playoff because of poor schedule, brand recognition, & luck (which was proven after getting blown out in every one of those games) doesn't change any of that.

F+ neutralizes for things like luck, soft schedule, and brand recognition, which is why I cited the aggregate F+ ranking of 15th since the start of the jack swarbrick and father jenkins era.

To me, this is bad. To you this is good (which just makes you a weird fan).

 

[NDSMC78]

So now you are trying to turn this into a debate about semantics.

When I say "bad" i mean not good enough to achieve its goal of winning a national championship or even contending for one in any realistic way. By being bullied out of virtually all top 100 talent in every recruiting cycle over the entire jack swarbrick and father jenkins era. Making it to the playoff because of poor schedule, brand recognition, & luck (which was proven after getting blown out by the 3rd quarter in every one of those games) doesn't change any of that. F+ accounts for all of this which is why I cited the aggregate ranking of 15th since the start of the jack swarbrick and father jenkins era.

To me, this is bad. To you this is good (which just makes you a weird fan).

It's not semantics at all. The words "good" and "bad" are easily understood. By any objective measure, going to the playoffs signifies a good football team. By any objective measure, winning ten games in a season signifies a good football team. Only a warped and unreasonable person would refer to such accomplishments as bad,

Here's your post: When I say "bad" i mean not good enough to achieve its goal of winning a national championship or even contending for one in any realistic way.

That is not reasonable. By your skewed and distorted definition, every team that does not win the national championship is bad. That's absurd. No one but you believes that.

But now you raise a new issue. You say: By being bullied out of virtually all top 100 talent in every recruiting cycle...

What evidence do you have the Notre Dame was "bullied" (your word) by any school or any person? Or is this just the latest in your lies and misstatements?

 

[sjb75]

It's not semantics at all. The words "good" and "bad" are easily understood. By any objective measure, going to the playoffs signifies a good football team. By any objective measure, winning ten games in a season signifies a good football team. Only a warped and unreasonable person would refer to such accomplishments as bad,

Here's your post: When I say "bad" i mean not good enough to achieve its goal of winning a national championship or even contending for one in any realistic way.

That is not reasonable. By your skewed and distorted definition, every team that does not win the national championship is bad. That's absurd. No one but you believes that.

But now you raise a new issue. You say: By being bullied out of virtually all top 100 talent in every recruiting cycle...

What evidence do you have the Notre Dame was "bullied" (your word) by any school or any person? Or is this just the latest in your lies and misstatements?

A waste of time.

 

[Get Nasty]

Knight making it abundantly clear the last week and especially today he’s not coming to ND

We don’t have a recruiting overhaul.

He’ll need to have a monster season coaching nd this year to have one

 

[Telx1]

Knight making it abundantly clear tiger the last week and especially today he’s not coming to ND

We don’t have a recruiting overhaul.

He’ll need to have a monster season coaching nd this year to have one

Nasty, I don’t read any posts by Chase…so not exactly sure what you’re addressing. I think you’re saying Knight is essentially gone and will be committing to Auburn, which I agree with. But Who has to have the monster season coaching ND, and why? We do need to replace Knight for 25, but Carr looks to be a great fit and 26 commit Grubb’s does as well.

 

[Get Nasty]

Nasty, I don’t read any posts by Chase…so not exactly sure what you’re addressing. I think you’re saying Knight is essentially gone and will be committing to Auburn, which I agree with. But Who has to have the monster season coaching ND, and why? We do need to replace Knight for 25, but Carr looks to be a great fit and 26 commit Grubb’s does as well.

It was that Freemans done a complete recruiting overhaul. He has not, to do one he has to have a great year coaching nd, meaning nd makes run in cfp. That’s my opinion because the 25 class is looking average for nd with knight most likely heading elsewhere
Going all in on knight may have cost us good wrs this class, having a good passing game va A&M would help to start changing narrative

 

[Telx1]

It was that Freemans done a complete recruiting overhaul. He has not, to do one he has to have a great year coaching nd, meaning nd makes run in cfp. That’s my opinion because the 25 class is looking average for nd with knight mos tooled heading elsewhere
Going all in on knight may have cost us good wrs this class, having a good passing game va A&M would help to start changing narrative

Gotcha.

 

[Pennick4]

We've already gotten into debates on this.

I referenced Weis recruiting (ergo 2005-2009) which was significantly better than anything since (several top 5 classes/at or on the border of the top 5). I referenced NDs 100+ year history of being an institution that has historically dominated in recruiting.

ND also makes as much money if not more than all of those guys at the top of the recruiting rankings ( if the publications that report on revenues are to be believed ).

I dont see why ND can't recruit as well as their peers in 2024 and beyond.

Coach Prime needs you! 😜

 

[Pennick4]

Your argument seems bifurcated.

You list all of the inducements ND employs to ACCOMMODATE the best players, having started your post by citing three 5-stars that ND offered.

Fine.

But did any of them sign?

Of course, ND OFFERS the best players. But if you DON’T CLOSE, what difference does it make. RIGHT?

Then, making your own counter-argument, you cite ND’s incompetence, naivete, bad vision/strategic direction and excuse-making; as well as its inability to take criticism, reflect, adjust or make adequate resources available.

In other words, you see, on one hand, ND as plugged-in enough to know how to offer – ALBEIT NOT SECURE – three prime recruits, and yet, on the other, as being so hopelessly out of touch that it can’t ATTRACT ENOUGH OF THEM OR RETAIN ENOUGH OF THE ONES WHO’VE COMMITTED – to make a difference.

SO, WHICH IS IT?

And where does the FRACTURE occur? With all of those inducements you’ve cited, ND should have as good a chance as its rivals of getting these kids.

My take?

IT’S NOT THE BEST FIT FOR THEM.

Many recruits – and it’s happened FOR YEARS – give ND a serious look or even, for a time, commit. But then they WAIVER and head instead for schools where LIFE ISN’T SO RIGOROUS. These are TEENAGERS.

Many are also not 4 and 40 guys. And that’s fine. Because FEW ARE.

Trouble, is THOSE are the guys – the 4 and 40’s – ND wants. Is it the best strategy for winning an NC? HARDLY!

But since ND’s goal is to remain an academic institution first -- something scores of the most talented recruits neither CARE A WHIT ABOUT, nor are willing to make the necessary sacrifices on behalf of – THEY DON’T SIGN.

And that’s what I mean by BARRIERS.

You’re viewing ND, the football team, IN ISOLATION. And since there’s a lot more to ND’s MISSION STATEMENT than that, your perspective doesn’t hold up. And while I’m sure ND’s admin would delight in winning a CFB NC, it’s hardly what matters most to them.

And that's no different from any other university where MOST of the student body is academically SUPERIOR.

What you’re asking ND to do is simply NOT in its DNA.

And, as I've tried to explain, it's a DNA mix that ND doesn't share with many 5-stars.

ND recruits them -- it's like panning for gold -- but very few nuggets turn up.

Most people get it.

Your argument seems bifurcated.

You list all of the inducements ND employs to ACCOMMODATE the best players, having started your post by citing three 5-stars that ND offered.

Fine.

But did any of them sign?

Of course, ND OFFERS the best players. But if you DON’T CLOSE, what difference does it make. RIGHT?

Then, making your own counter-argument, you cite ND’s incompetence, naivete, bad vision/strategic direction and excuse-making; as well as its inability to take criticism, reflect, adjust or make adequate resources available.

In other words, you see, on one hand, ND as plugged-in enough to know how to offer – ALBEIT NOT SECURE – three prime recruits, and yet, on the other, as being so hopelessly out of touch that it can’t ATTRACT ENOUGH OF THEM OR RETAIN ENOUGH OF THE ONES WHO’VE COMMITTED – to make a difference.

SO, WHICH IS IT?

And where does the FRACTURE occur? With all of those inducements you’ve cited, ND should have as good a chance as its rivals of getting these kids.

My take?

IT’S NOT THE BEST FIT FOR THEM.

Many recruits – and it’s happened FOR YEARS – give ND a serious look or even, for a time, commit. But then they WAIVER and head instead for schools where LIFE ISN’T SO RIGOROUS. These are TEENAGERS.

Many are also not 4 and 40 guys. And that’s fine. Because FEW ARE.

Trouble, is THOSE are the guys – the 4 and 40’s – ND wants. Is it the best strategy for winning an NC? HARDLY!

But since ND’s goal is to remain an academic institution first -- something scores of the most talented recruits neither CARE A WHIT ABOUT, nor are willing to make the necessary sacrifices on behalf of – THEY DON’T SIGN.

And that’s what I mean by BARRIERS.

You’re viewing ND, the football team, IN ISOLATION. And since there’s a lot more to ND’s MISSION STATEMENT than that, your perspective doesn’t hold up. And while I’m sure ND’s admin would delight in winning a CFB NC, it’s hardly what matters most to them.

And that's no different from any other university where MOST of the student body is academically SUPERIOR.

What you’re asking ND to do is simply NOT in its DNA.

And, as I've tried to explain, it's a DNA mix that ND doesn't share with many 5-stars.

ND recruits them -- it's like panning for gold -- but very few nuggets turn up.

Most people get it.

You should break up your messages by chapters... Take a breath.

 

[4-4-3]

ND HAS SIGNED TOP 5 CLASSES in the PAST and has DOMINATED RECRUITING IN THE PAST. They have signed the best prospects at the most exclusive positions. They have recruited among the tier 1 throughout their long and storied history.

Even as early as 2005-2009 (Charlie Weis) -- during the height of the ESPN/BCS era and during a time when people were using identical excuses to the ones you are using here -- ND was able to recruit the biggest prospects at the biggest positions in the sport in big numbers. The player development sucked under Charlie Weis and he was a failed coach, but he put to bed the rumors that ND was too sophisticated of an institution to attract NFL-bound talent in the highest tier.

What has changed in the last 1.5 decades that suddenly makes ND some impossible fit for the games best prospects ( other than it being a super convenient excuse that allows the university/athletic department to not be held accountable for its incompetence of course) ?

I don't see that the Charlie Weis reference computes.

Teams on which SOME NUMBER of Charlie Weis recruits played had a 62.3% won/loss record.

Teams he was the principal recruiter for averaged a 10.6 recruiting rank.

Teams on which both Brian Kelly and Marcus Freeman recruits have played and/or are still playing have enjoyed an 11.6 average rank.

Yet, those same Kelly/Freeman teams have compiled a 73.3% won/loss record.

Both Weis and Kelly had ONE top-5 class.

Bottom line: From 2010 to 2024, ND slipped one notch in recruiting rankings while climbing 11 percentage points in won/loss percentage.

So, where is either the factuality you are claiming or the correlation you are implying?

Add to that the Saban-Bama phenomenon; the rise of the SEC; the rise of OSU; the coming of NIL, the portal, a CONCRETIZED PLAYOFF SYSTEM that devalues INDEPENDENCE -- plus ND continuing in LARGELY THE SAME MANNER IT HAS SINCE HOLTZ – and what you get is WHAT WE SEE.

There’s no rabbit to be pulled from any hat. Nor is there even a HAT.

The real change came following Holtz’s GLORIOUS four number one classes from 87 through 90. That produced more FOOTBALL SUCCESS for Holtz and ND than the school could apparently TOLERATE.

Out went Holtz and in came mediocrity between 97 and 04, in which ND, under Ty, could barely cobble together consecutive 32nd and 40th ranked classes.

Weis did improve upon that – who wouldn’t have? – but so did Kelly and Freeman. Plus, the latter two either won or have been winning at a MUCH MORE RESPECTABLE RATE, something Weis whiffed at following his first two years.

So, to answer your question, that’s what the last 15 years have REALLY LOOKED LIKE, and if you think that ND’S athletic department believes that it should be taken out and shot for what’s actually been a REASONABLE TURNAROUND -- given the REALITIES involved -- I doubt it would agree.

ND IS NOT BUILT TO BE AN ANNUAL NC CONTENDER. IT WILL NOT GET THE KIND OF BUMPER CROP IN TALENT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE UNTIL IT CHANGES ITS STRIPES AS AN ACADEMIC INSTITUTION AND GIVES IT UP TOTALLY FOR CFB.

AND MAYBE NOT EVEN THEN.

But of course, none of this is even going to happen as ND is extremely unlikely TO EVEN TINKER with its academic standing and/or approach. ND is the dog, not the tail.

Just bring ND itself your argument, and see what it tells you.

(Recruiting rankings cited here are as per Rivals.)

 

[BGI User 1596]

There’s no rabbit to be pulled from any hat. Nor is there even a HAT.

Sounds like they’re trying to pull that rabbit out of their arse!

 

[4-4-3]

Sounds like they’re trying to pull that rabbit out of their arse!

That's what it would take, I'm afraid. I'm not sure it's even POSSIBLE to be both a top 20 university and a consistent NC contender in football.

And it's borne out by the numbers:

ND's average football rank over the last 7 years as per the final CFP Poll = 11.14

Its average recruiting rank over the last 8 years as per Rivals = 11.87

Its average rank as a university as per US News & World Report = 17.9

There have been 3, 4 and 5-place finishes in the final poll.

There have been one 6 and two 9-finishes in recruiting.

And there has been one 14-finish in the university's ranking.

But that's as good as its gotten.

YET, IS THAT ANY CAUSE FOR COMPLAINT BY ND GIVEN ITS PHILOSOPHY?

HARDLY.

IN FACT, I WOULD CALL THAT ALL SYSTEMS GO.