I challenge you....

[88ND]

Any Brian Kelly apologists, board of trustee, admin etc...

The challenge is this...name me the players under the Brian Kelly regime offense or defense that have progressed in their football development from year 1/2....through tear... 3/4

Please do NOT include the physical maturation of these young men becoming adults. That's mother nature and she doesn't care about wins and losses.

To give Kelly a fair opinion I've looked, thought, watched many a game, and I can't find anyone that football skill progressed in a positive manner.

However what I did see were players that showed so much potential in year 1/2 that it was very natural to be excited about them only to witness those same players become empty jerseys.

These players have many , many years built into them of good football. from peewee up through high school. Fundamentals etc are all instilled.

It takes Kelly and staff approximately 2 years to ruin these players on either side of the ball.

The player under Kelly regresses. That is fact❕

Who? E V E R Y O N E

 

[Java65]

I disagree with this. Outside of the QB's Kelly has done a great job of developing players, just look how many ND players are in the NFL. Somebody posted a radio interview Bryan Driskell was on and he commented on it. Lately ND puts as many guys in the NFL as any other school.. I think he said only Bama had more in the last couple of years.

What kills Kelly is that he's one of the worst at game prep and arguably the worst in-game coach in college football. I've never seen a coach get just about everything wrong during a game.. yet he still wins 8 games which I think is a testament to player development.

 

[88ND]

Java,

Question. How many of those players would have went regardless?

I have no problem with Kelly the recruiter compared to Willingham, Weiss....

But do you have specific names that you can name ... from year 1/2.. that improved in football ability to year 3/4?

I sure can't find any.

 

[IrishBlessings]

I disagree with this. Outside of the QB's Kelly has done a great job of developing players, just look how many ND players are in the NFL. Somebody posted a radio interview Bryan Driskell was on and he commented on it. Lately ND puts as many guys in the NFL as any other school.. I think he said only Bama had more in the last couple of years.

What kills Kelly is that he's one of the worst at game prep and arguably the worst in-game coach in college football. I've never seen a coach get just about everything wrong during a game.. yet he still wins 8 games which I think is a testament to player development.

Driskells point was that ND has put a lot of guys into the NFL in the last few years - but it does not reflect in Wins and losses over the last 3 years. In those 3 years we had 1 good year w/ a very bad bowl game loss where we are not even in the game from start to finish. That was his point. We have NFL level talent in a lot of spots - yet it doesn't translate into having ass kicking teams at ND.

 

[twalsh]

Any Brian Kelly apologists, board of trustee, admin etc...

The challenge is this...name me the players under the Brian Kelly regime offense or defense that have progressed in their football development from year 1/2....through tear... 3/4

Please do NOT include the physical maturation of these young men becoming adults. That's mother nature and she doesn't care about wins and losses.

To give Kelly a fair opinion I've looked, thought, watched many a game, and I can't find anyone that football skill progressed in a positive manner.

However what I did see were players that showed so much potential in year 1/2 that it was very natural to be excited about them only to witness those same players become empty jerseys.

These players have many , many years built into them of good football. from peewee up through high school. Fundamentals etc are all instilled.

It takes Kelly and staff approximately 2 years to ruin these players on either side of the ball.

The player under Kelly regresses. That is fact❕

Who? E V E R Y O N E

Even a serious Kelly detractor could come up with 25 names of kids that improved under the Kelly regime with 5 minutes of research. This is a little over the top.

 

[IrishBlessings]

Even a serious Kelly detractor could come up with 25 names of kids that improved under the Kelly regime with 5 minutes of research. This is a little over the top.

I agree - the OP is over the top and if kids aren't developing then the NFL wouldn't come calling for them - I feel the problem as most see it - as the fact that the talent is not being properly coached from an X and O standpoint.

 

[mikend58]

Does Jarron Jones count?
Chris Brown, Theo Riddick , Tyler Eifer, Will Fuller. Troy Nikki's, Romeo Okwara . CJ Prosiese. Harrison Smith. Both Martians.

Not sure if they were NFL talent when they got to ND. We will never know

 

[perseverare]

I disagree with this. Outside of the QB's Kelly has done a great job of developing players, just look how many ND players are in the NFL. Somebody posted a radio interview Bryan Driskell was on and he commented on it. Lately ND puts as many guys in the NFL as any other school.. I think he said only Bama had more in the last couple of years.

What kills Kelly is that he's one of the worst at game prep and arguably the worst in-game coach in college football. I've never seen a coach get just about everything wrong during a game.. yet he still wins 8 games which I think is a testament to player development.

the OP is more right than wrong.

 

[mbd11]

Does Jarron Jones count?
Chris Brown, Theo Riddick , Tyler Eifer, Will Fuller. Troy Nikki's, Romeo Okwara . CJ Prosiese. Harrison Smith. Both Martians.

Not sure if they were NFL talent when they got to ND. We will never know

Didn't know we had martians playing for our team.

But yes, there's been quite a few that have progressed. Jonas Gray is another RB.

 

[nemeth#5]

I watched the Lions vs Vikings the other day.... may of well been two ND pipelines.... hell, even TJ Jones was out there catching passes...... You don't have that many kids in the league if you are not either recruiting extremely well (I would say we are above average) or developing great football players....

I'd like to see a breakdown of players in the league from each college with their star ranking. Because you are right, there are studs out there that would go to the NFL if they played at North Texas..... But I would bet ND has the most 2/3/4 Star players in the league (or at least top 5).

 

[perseverare]

I watched the Lions vs Vikings the other day.... may of well been two ND pipelines.... hell, even TJ Jones was out there catching passes...... You don't have that many kids in the league if you are not either recruiting extremely well (I would say we are above average) or developing great football players....

I'd like to see a breakdown of players in the league from each college with their star ranking. Because you are right, there are studs out there that would go to the NFL if they played at North Texas..... But I would bet ND has the most 2/3/4 Star players in the league (or at least top 5).

well since that is the only type player ND successfully recruits that would be the case. And the point was progression vs regression; did the talent eventually win out over bad coaching once the pkayer was in a teaching developing enviroment. JMO, I think that was more the case.

 

[Java65]

Java,

Question. How many of those players would have went regardless?

I have no problem with Kelly the recruiter compared to Willingham, Weiss....

But do you have specific names that you can name ... from year 1/2.. that improved in football ability to year 3/4?

I sure can't find any.

I don't think many, if any would. I think Weis is a perfect example of a guy that recruited well but could not develop talent at all. Just off the top of my head guys that played as well or better each year; Fuller, both Martins, Prosise, Manti.. I'm sure there are more but that was just off the top of my head.

Like I said, IMO Kelly's problem is that he has no identity on offense and defense, he's miserable at game prep and he might be the worst game day HC in D1 football

 

[mikend58]

Didn't know we had martians playing for our team.

But yes, there's been quite a few that have progressed. Jonas Gray is another RB.

Jonas Gray is a good one it's a shame he hurt his knee. He really come into his own in 2011.
Robert Hughes is another player that benefited from BK

Zack & Nick. Sorry autocorrect..

 

[perseverare]

misbelief

again Weis did not recruit for the overall team, often w/o a true design or plan.
He classes were by the admission of the star givers over rated based upon his reputation.

His 28 man class was a highly rated 'bust'

 

[Java65]

IMO, this is what has been so damn frustrating about Kelly. He's done so much right but he is atrocious at preparing for games, game time decisions and having an identity on offense and defense.

Heck if Kelly was just above average at all of those things ND would be winning 10+ games a year on talent alone. It's just stunning that almost everything he does in a game is wrong.

 

[perseverare]

wrong, talent is wanting

 

[Java65]

misbelief

again Weis did not recruit for the overall team, often w/o a true design or plan.
He classes were by the admission of the star givers over rated based upon his reputation.

His 28 man class was a highly rated 'bust'

Thats because he couldn't develop a player at all. As good as you were coming in, thats as good as you were ever going to be. Look at Sam Young.. the guy was terrible at ND but he's been a journeyman NFL player for 7 years.

Weis didn't recruit well at certain positions but he recruited some great athletes that he never developed at all.

 

[Java65]

wrong, talent is wanting

Sorry, you are wrong and the fact ND has so many players in the NFL is factual evidence you continue to be wrong about this.

ND has ton's of talent.

 

[perseverare]

talent in the NFL is not manifesting at ND. I am not wrong. There are 22 positions in football.

 

[South Bender]

Java,

Question. How many of those players would have went regardless?

I have no problem with Kelly the recruiter compared to Willingham, Weiss....

But do you have specific names that you can name ... from year 1/2.. that improved in football ability to year 3/4?

I sure can't find any.

If the players go to the NFL, then it's natural ability.
If they don't, then it's the coaches fault. Can't have it both ways.

If your willing to blame the coach for shortcomings, then you should give credit when
things go well.

 

[perseverare]

I had gone through those Weis classes year by year to demonstrate the fallacy that Weis was a good recruiter; I posted it here several time. If you missed it then stay 'wrong' and be happy.

 

[twalsh]

I had gone through those Weis classes year by year to demonstrate the fallacy that Weis was a good recruiter; I posted it here several time. If you missed it then stay 'wrong' and be happy.

Weis was not a good recruiter, he had very little balance in his classes. What you can credit Weis with is showing the country that ND could still attract the elite recruit, which was in serious doubt after the Willingham era. And I would not sell short the importance of Weis accomplishing that.

 

[rgc7]

Didn't know we had martians playing for our team.

But yes, there's been quite a few that have progressed. Jonas Gray is another RB.

We certainly do have Martians on our tean ! That is why they seem to be playing " On Another Planet!

 

[Gimmea10wincoach]

Perse you are extremely wrong java is spot on with his comments. 88? not sure what you mean but i think its the frustration and utter disgust with Kelly talking.
We have loads of talent. (java wrong about mich. Btw) as java stated Kelly's lack of adjustments in game are as bad as the worst in the country! That is not hyperbole.
Other coaches are not trying to find an identity to there football team 6 wks into the season! They know whether they are a pass first, or pound the ball style of team. The play and personnel dictate that. When you can do neither particularly well. That is coaching!
Enter Meyer at OSU 7-6 under Fickle.
Elite coach 12-0
Enter Harbaugh 10 win back to back with Hokes recruits again coaching.
Enter Saban they had what 6 wins first yr and had 3 vacated look how that turned out! Have'nt had less than double digit wins since. Coaching,game day management player development motivation all staples of the good coaches. The question i ask myself? Where did the players that played 2014-15 that filled in for all our casualties in those 2 seasons go? Why has he not built depth on defense? Did BVG have players assigned to certain packages? Only to play them when said package was called? Last one anyone notice the difference in personnel when Malik came into most games? Could be mistaken but my kid brought it up one day. Said that the starters came out. No Eq no Tori etc. Could be wrong.

 

[Bodizephax]

Does Jarron Jones count?
Chris Brown, Theo Riddick , Tyler Eifer, Will Fuller. Troy Nikki's, Romeo Okwara . CJ Prosiese. Harrison Smith. Both Martians.

Not sure if they were NFL talent when they got to ND. We will never know

Trump will have them deported if they did not take the proper steps in becoming American citizens. As it should be.

 

[perseverare]

I am not wrong and I am tired of proving it. I said you are free to go through your fan life midguided if you are 'happy' with it. Really, I am correct...and want other empiracle evidence? look at the scoreboards.
Weary of the misguided here.

 

[Gimmea10wincoach]

We can agree to disagree which is fine. Your premise Weis was a bad recruiter is well... Kelly like. Arrogant and as you state "misguided" he was an above average recruiter. Did he recruit defense? Very meh! What added to the problem there was 0 development! Aside from Blanton (overachiever) and Kap then Manti was Manti. You had pretty avg players at best. He was however pretty damn good on offense recruiting skill players. I get what your saying by not agreeing he was a good recruiter because he didnt cover all the bases. Which is fine, i just dont think he qualifies as bad. Definitely not elite. Kelly has missed does that make him a poor recruiter? It is about the only thing he has done effectively and consistantly

 

[88ND]

If you feel I'm over the top

I don't think many, if any would. I think Weis is a perfect example of a guy that recruited well but could not develop talent at all. Just off the top of my head guys that played as well or better each year; Fuller, both Martins, Prosise, Manti.. I'm sure there are more but that was just off the top of my head.

Like I said, IMO Kelly's problem is that he has no identity on offense and defense, he's miserable at game prep and he might be the worst game day HC in D1 football

So you're saying he's horrible at all those above things but seemingly he's really good at progressing the player individually?????

OK..I'm going to read all that again because of how insane that is.....

.....
...
..
.
Yep...thought so. ridiculous.

When you have 100+ players every year you're bound to have a few positives....but I can tell you this, the handful you mentioned I could counter with a list ten times longer.

And BTW, want to know why players got drafted?
Measurables.
Harrison Smith wasn't that high on anyone's board until he dropped a tremendous 40 time at the combine. that instantly moved him way up. Kelly help with that?

Tuitt... first round to the Steelers. why? he's a legit 6 foot six , 300# (not program inflated) player who had great success in a 3-4 as a tackle...
See there are three things Kelly can't hurt or help. height, weight, 40 time.

As far as physically maturing well humans get bigger and stronger regardless until they peak.

Playing ability and good fundamental football....that is coach.

Will Fuller? When you have the fastest 40 time in the 16 combine you are playing on Sunday.
How was Fullers hands? did they improve? his route running?

No matter what you are going to have a few players defy the odds and retain some ability ..no matter how hard Kelly and staff try to impose horrible habits.

And those running backs someone spoke of, we are talking about dual threat type backs that any NFL team craves.

Care to talk defensively?

Trumbetti..nice motor, great raw talent...as a freshmen we all thought this kid will be great ...
Tranquil...was a tremendous tackler and had nice ball skills.

That alone screams volumes. a player with good tackling fundamentals arrives at Notre Dame and how long until it all disappears? Towards the end of their second year they are in full tackle like shit mode. Let's hit high with our shoulder and hope the go down.

It's the biggest and most ridiculous disservice Brian Kelly and staff do to those players.

 

[Irish Grandeur]

Lots of first and second round picks in the NFL draft.

That said, the ND team does not benefit from it. He develops players fine but his game-time coaching negates it. I have said all along that BK coaches for a last-drive win. He could blow teams out but chooses to toy with them like a cat does with a mouse.

What coach gets up on an inferior team by 17 points in the first quarter and loses? Brian Kelly does because he doesn't have it in him to pour on the gas and blow them out. He coaches for that final-minute drama. Well, it sure has bitten him in the azz this year.