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How much did the injuries really hurt us??

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football1irish

Shakes Down The Thunder
Nov 17, 2002
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Tarean Folston is a great player but CJ Procise was better yet and Josh Adams might be the best of the three.

Malik Zaire is good but Dashon Kizer at 6'4 225 with a strong arm and mobility and all the intangibles has high 1st round written all over him.

Alex Bars is a back up.

The TE loss hurt is a little, not much.

Drue Tranquil is good against the run and special blitz packages but is not an every down safety.

Losing Jarron Jones did hurt....although Issaac and Sheldon stepped up with lots of production this year.

Losing Kevarie this game did hurt some. Couple of plays he could have made better than replacement although he hasn't been amazing this year either.

Overall not much. It's a testament to the one thing I think Kelly is exceptional at which is identifying talent that is in the 3-4 star range that end up playing like 5 stars. However not much of an excuse for why we lose games we shouldn't as the talent is there on this roster regardless of injuries.
 
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I think the injuries killed us. Having all of those guys healthy probably would have made a difference in a 1 pt loss at Stanford and a 2 pt loss at Clemson.
 
football1irish said:
Tarean Folston is a great player but CJ Procise was better yet and Josh Adams might be the best of the three.

Malik Zaire is good but Dashon Kizer at 6'4 225 with a string arm and mobility and all the intangibles has high 1st round written all over him.

Alex Bars is a back up.

The TE loss hurt is a little, not much.

Drue Tranquil is good against the run and special blitz packages but is not an every down safety.

Losing Jarron Jones did hurt....although Issaac and Sheldon stepped up with lots of production this year.

Losing Kevarie this game did hurt some. Couple of plays he could have made better than replacement although he hasn't been amazing this year either.

Overall not much. It's a testament to the one thing I think Kelly is exceptional at which is identifying talent that is in the 3-4 star range that end up playing like 5 stars. However not much of an excuse for why we lose games we shouldn't as the talent is there on this roster regardless of injuries.
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30 seconds of bad defense was the story. As has been the situation all season DK did his best Joe Montana impersonation - but the defense folded like a cheap umbrella! Stanford hit the weakness!
 
The offensive injuries, in particular were killers. Compare Stanford in the red zone last night with ND. Stanford's upperclassman executed the red zone schemes with confidence. ND, with a freshman at QB, running back, and tight end were tentative in the red zone all season, resulting in numerous close games, regardless of opponent quality. With Zaire at QB, Folston in the backfield, Prosise at wideout (with fuller), or as a flanker, and Smythe at tight end; ND would be 12 and 0 and headed to the 4 team playoff.
 
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^ but realize thatvthat has been the case for the ND RZ regardless of the players on the field.
The staff needs to recognize there is a problem, then identify it and solve it. But denial is the one thing that cannot persist.
 
mmboys07 said:
The offensive injuries, in particular were killers. Compare Stanford in the red zone last night with ND. Stanford's upperclassman executed the red zone schemes with confidence. ND, with a freshman at QB, running back, and tight end were tentative in the red zone all season, resulting in numerous close games, regardless of opponent quality. With Zaire at QB, Folston in the backfield, Prosise at wideout (with fuller), or as a flanker, and Smythe at tight end; ND would be 12 and 0 and headed to the 4 team playoff.
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I disagree that injuries played a major role in the red zone problems. I think those problems are more a factor of the type of offense we run. We do better when we can get our athletes in space and not as well when we are working in tighter quarters near the goal line.
 
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football1irish said:
Tarean Folston is a great player but CJ Procise was better yet and Josh Adams might be the best of the three.

Malik Zaire is good but Dashon Kizer at 6'4 225 with a string arm and mobility and all the intangibles has high 1st round written all over him.

Alex Bars is a back up.

The TE loss hurt is a little, not much.

Drue Tranquil is good against the run and special blitz packages but is not an every down safety.

Losing Jarron Jones did hurt....although Issaac and Sheldon stepped up with lots of production this year.

Losing Kevarie this game did hurt some. Couple of plays he could have made better than replacement although he hasn't been amazing this year either.

Overall not much. It's a testament to the one thing I think Kelly is exceptional at which is identifying talent that is in the 3-4 star range that end up playing like 5 stars. However not much of an excuse for why we lose games we shouldn't as the talent is there on this roster regardless of injuries.
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Crawford, Jones, Avery, and Ishaq were huge losses on defense! On offense we found Adams which is great but your evaluation of Kizer and Zaire is ridiculous. Kizer had a nice season having not played before but he made a lot of mistakes, too many. He has to learn from those and play better next season which I think he will. Oh and just because "backups" get hurt don't think it doesn't effect the team because you lose depth.
 
mmboys07 said:
The offensive injuries, in particular were killers. Compare Stanford in the red zone last night with ND. Stanford's upperclassman executed the red zone schemes with confidence. ND, with a freshman at QB, running back, and tight end were tentative in the red zone all season, resulting in numerous close games, regardless of opponent quality. With Zaire at QB, Folston in the backfield, Prosise at wideout (with fuller), or as a flanker, and Smythe at tight end; ND would be 12 and 0 and headed to the 4 team playoff.
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Using that logic you have to give us a loss to UVA because it was Kizer who won that game and not Malik.

You can't give all the guys who got hurt the victories and have all the players who did play the losses even though they were more dynamic than the guys who got hurt.
 
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justacollegefan said:
Crawford, Jones, Avery, and Ishaq were huge losses on defense! On offense we found Adams which is great but your evaluation of Kizer and Zaire is ridiculous. Kizer had a nice season having not played before but he made a lot of mistakes, too many. He has to learn from those and play better next season which I think he will. Oh and just because "backups" get hurt don't think it doesn't effect the team because you lose depth.
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Totally ridiculous....show me one NFL scouts evaluation that has Zaire who is 6 foot and throws sideam above Kizer. If Kizer was eligible this year he might be a top 5 pick if he came out.

I like Malik but he showed his shortcomings against UVA....Kizer is a special talent and we were better with him than we were with Malik.
 
HDK said:
I disagree that injuries played a major role in the red zone problems. I think those problems are more a factor of the type of offense we run. We do better when we can get our athletes in space and not as well when we are working in tighter quarters near the goal line.
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THIS! we are a better scoring team from 50 yards then from 5 yards, that's the spread. It will stay that way unless we develop a power running game within the 10 yard line. If we don't it'll be more of the same.
 
football1irish said:
Totally ridiculous....show me one NFL scouts evaluation that has Zaire who is 6 foot and throws sideam above Kizer. If Kizer was eligible this year he might be a top 5 pick if he came out.

I like Malik but he showed his shortcomings against UVA....Kizer is a special talent and we were better with him than we were with Malik.
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You have no clue what you are talking about if you think Malik would be a top 5 draft pick in the NFL right now.
 
mmboys07 said:
The offensive injuries, in particular were killers. Compare Stanford in the red zone last night with ND. Stanford's upperclassman executed the red zone schemes with confidence. ND, with a freshman at QB, running back, and tight end were tentative in the red zone all season, resulting in numerous close games, regardless of opponent quality. With Zaire at QB, Folston in the backfield, Prosise at wideout (with fuller), or as a flanker, and Smythe at tight end; ND would be 12 and 0 and headed to the 4 team playoff.
Click to expand...

Agree. thanks for a good post.
 
First, I agree; the spread offense creates problems for red zone success. Second; if NDs defense had been better the red zone issues wouldn't have been so telling. Third; the difference between experienced and inexperienced players, in tight situations, shows up in all sports. Kizer was great in the middle of field where he could free wheel some. However, I always thought in the red zone he just looked tight and wasn't always aware of his surroundings. Last night, I had no idea what he was doing on some of the plays, or where he was throwing (3 rows into the seats).
 
Best Offense in the Kelly era... Maybe the 2nd worst defense (we really missed Jones). I agree about Red Zone and inexperience, but hasn't the Red Zone always been a problem for Kelly? I was impressed with how this team played this season -- but we lose three of our stalwarts on D next year and under BVG's scheme I don't know how we replace them... I really think the BVG experiment should be over. It will be exciting to see Kelly working with an experienced QB for a change. So, yes, the injuries really hurt, but damn, those guys played their hearts out and were two plays away.
 
Not by a long shot? ND lost to the #1 in their house by 2 despite 5 TOs and a freshman QB starting his 2nd or 3rd game. I don't understand this belief that ND doesn't belong or would get embarrassed.
 
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I have mixed feelings on the topic. In one way it really hurt our depth and caused starters to play more plays and not get time off to nurse injuries. But, in another way we are getting to see some serious future NFL talent in the younger players (e.g. Kizer, Adams, Jones). I honestly do not believe ND would be 10-2 with MZ at QB because the Irish probably lose to UVA that night with the way he was playing...JMHO
 
justacollegefan said:
How about neither? I am not talking about potential but you are still clueless.
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Clearly I am. NFL is never looking for difference making franchise QB's. Guys who are smart, don't get in trouble, have ideal height and size, can make all the throws, can outrun an entire defense, and proven production grow on trees in bunches.
 
football1irish said:
Clearly I am. NFL is never looking for difference making franchise QB's. Guys who are smart, don't get in trouble, have ideal height and size, can make all the throws, can outrun an entire defense, and proven production grow on trees in bunches.
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Again, I use the word potential and maybe you should look it up.
 
Injuries also occur I football,and all teams have to live with them and make adjustments. ND is no different.
It does hurt some teams more than other teams, so how much did it hurt ND ? Who knows ?
 
bizzybecknd said:
Not by a long shot? ND lost to the #1 in their house by 2 despite 5 TOs and a freshman QB starting his 2nd or 3rd game. I don't understand this belief that ND doesn't belong or would get embarrassed.
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Defense, defense, defense, or rather the lack of. I'm surprised that so many people point to the Clemson game, in which they shut us down for three-plus quarters, as a great game. It would be like Georgia Tech fans saying they were within one more possession of taking us to overtime.

Lots of bright spots on this team--I'd put them in the top 10--but I don't think I'd put them in the top five.
 
football1irish said:
Reading comprehension needs to be practiced...I said Kizer and not Malik.
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Kizer a top 5 draft pick if he came out this year? You are nuts. The kid played amazing for his first time in game action and will continue to improve.
 
mmboys07 said:
The offensive injuries, in particular were killers. Compare Stanford in the red zone last night with ND. Stanford's upperclassman executed the red zone schemes with confidence. ND, with a freshman at QB, running back, and tight end were tentative in the red zone all season, resulting in numerous close games, regardless of opponent quality. With Zaire at QB, Folston in the backfield, Prosise at wideout (with fuller), or as a flanker, and Smythe at tight end; ND would be 12 and 0 and headed to the 4 team playoff.
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????? The red zone offense has been awful for six years under Kelly. Look up the numbers. Stop making excuses every season.
 
IrishMike409 said:
BK said it perfectly during the post game presser: 2 plays away from being 12-0 and ranked #1 in the country.
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Exactly. I appreciated his comments last night. He flat out was saying he isn't a big game coach. He can't get those wins. He knows how to stay close but he can't win them. He'd be perfect at Kansas State.
 
stu4don said:
Best Offense in the Kelly era... Maybe the 2nd worst defense (we really missed Jones). I agree about Red Zone and inexperience, but hasn't the Red Zone always been a problem for Kelly? I was impressed with how this team played this season -- but we lose three of our stalwarts on D next year and under BVG's scheme I don't know how we replace them... I really think the BVG experiment should be over. It will be exciting to see Kelly working with an experienced QB for a change. So, yes, the injuries really hurt, but damn, those guys played their hearts out and were two plays away.
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I thought next year was this season? I can't wait for next season when your crowd comes out again telling us all about how 2017 is now "the year."
 
Pennick4 said:
Kizer a top 5 draft pick if he came out this year? You are nuts. The kid played amazing for his first time in game action and will continue to improve.
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This site (NFL draft scout) does a decent job. He currently is ranked # 4 for his class of 2019.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/players.php?genpos=QB&draftyear=2016&sortorder=tsxpos&order=ASC

"Dashon Kizer at 6'4 225 with a strong arm and mobility and all the intangibles has high 1st round written all over him." "If Kizer was eligible this year he might be a top 5 pick if he came out."

Dear Lord....

The "coach" can't even get his name right. Dashon? How about DeShone....?

Kizer has excellent size and mobility, but needs more experience at the helm...

I hope he stays healthy.

I worry about Wimbush....
 
IrishMike409 said:
I think the injuries killed us. Having all of those guys healthy probably would have made a difference in a 1 pt loss at Stanford and a 2 pt loss at Clemson.
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Fine line between winning and losing a game - I agree the injuries were that line . We had some holes as a result of all the injuries and of course not getting Ishaq back ( an issue the clemsons and alabamas of the world don't have to deal with )

A couple injuries is part of the game 8-10 is too much to overcome to play at the highest level . K Russell plays sat nite it's a different outcome . I thought that was the final straw and prayed I was wrong, I wasn't .
 
HDK said:
Perhaps ranked #1, but certainly not the best team in the country--not by a long shot.
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That's what is so intriguing about Coach Kelly - best talent in the country ? nope - 2 plays from # 1 in the country? yup . A tremendous compliment to Kelly and Staff esp given 10 major injuries . Well done Irish !!
 
Personally, I don't think defenses worried too much about Kizer beating them with his arm in the red zone. The shorter field requires the QB to pull the trigger quickly on back of the end zone crossing patterns and Kizer is hesitant and misses those split second opportunities. Not sure why, but the corner lob has disappeared from the ND red zone playbook. Robinson has not developed into the big mismatch I expected and Kizer hasn't shown the needed touch. Our pathetic red zone stats will improve dramatically next year with Kizer gaining experience and confidence, and with some packages using either Malik or Wimbush, and with the emergence of one of our tall receivers as a go to guy in the corner. This will force the defenses to play honest and we'll get more short run TDs as a result.
 
Telx1 said:
Personally, I don't think defenses worried too much about Kizer beating them with his arm in the red zone. The shorter field requires the QB to pull the trigger quickly on back of the end zone crossing patterns and Kizer is hesitant and misses those split second opportunities. Not sure why, but the corner lob has disappeared from the ND red zone playbook. Robinson has not developed into the big mismatch I expected and Kizer hasn't shown the needed touch. Our pathetic red zone stats will improve dramatically next year with Kizer gaining experience and confidence, and with some packages using either Malik or Wimbush, and with the emergence of one of our tall receivers as a go to guy in the corner. This will force the defenses to play honest and we'll get more short run TDs as a result.
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ND needs a power back to keep the defense honest inside the 5yd line. They're not able to get a lot of movement in their play-action down there to gain separation. IMO, Zaire could bring that next year if he is converted to RB.
 
Irish Grandeur said:
ND needs a power back to keep the defense honest inside the 5yd line. They're not able to get a lot of movement in their play-action down there to gain separation. IMO, Zaire could bring that next year if he is converted to RB.
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We were fortunate Stanford was missing 260 lb FB Daniel Marx. He is a tremendous talent and it stalled McCaffrey.
 
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