How do we measure up to the playoff teams....
- Thread starter 88ND
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*ND is the new stepping stone where coaches learn on the job.
*After ten years.
That very well may be the case but you don't use the spotlight to tell your team...the athletes YOU recruited....are lousy and can't compete. That's all he's saying with that.
He's a child and that's weasel talk.
Just another Brian Kelly signature. Throw everyone under the bus but himself.
I'd love for a player to come out and say if our coaching was a bit more complete we could definitely play with anyone. If he would act like we belong in a big game maybe I'd feel like it too and we wouldn't spot the other team 17 points before we get off the bus.
Oh well
Kelly is going into his 11th season. 3 other coaches who went at least 10 at ND had national championships by now. Some had two. Now Kelly says the recruiting has to be stepped up. How is he going to do that? Is it an admissions office issue? Is it an issue with current staff members who are not that good on the trail? With all the success the guy has had, and you hear about it on this board all the time, why aren't the recruiting results better. How come no top 5 classes with all of this SUCCESS? If Notre Dame is going to capture a natty in the remaining years Kelly has left on his contract and/or extension that is likely forthcoming, then the Irish need a run of recruiting classes over a 3 to 4-year period that are no lower than 6th ranked cumulatively. I believe that Clemson's ranking of recruiting classes for either last year's NC team or this years team is 6.2 or something over four years. That is a high bar for Kelly. I don't think he can do it. In 10 years he hasn't been able to do it. If he can't do it, he won't win a NC. That's the bar at Notre Dame. There is nothing else. This university doesn't settle for mediocrity, at least it didn't used to.
Honestly if he had better material I'm not sure results would be much different.
Maybe instead of getting decimated by Michigan we get upset by 7 points?
Is he going to finally start motivating players and getting them amped up for a michigan type game? A miami two years ago?
How about the 17 false start penalties against Georgia. He going to start cleaning that horseshit up?
All things that have NOTHING to do with physical attributes.
I think we could of hung with Oklahoma. The other three bury us unfortunately in my humble opinion. The Irish are a solid 10-15 ranked team. It's nuts but the Irish peeled off 11 wins and may not crack the top ten. Unfathomable years ago.
Goldon wasn’t that good to start with. Look at the talent he had in 2012 on both sides of the ball. If he were anywhere near as good as people want to make him out to be, we would’ve rolled our entire schedule that year and competed with Bama in the title game. In 2014 he didn’t have a top 2 defense with NFL talent all around him on offense too.
Zaire never recovered from a broken ankle (though we really don’t know he good he was before that either) and Wimbush wasn’t the same after he hurt himself running against (I think) NC St.
Book played better at QB this year than last year.
Zaire never recovered from a broken ankle (though we really don’t know he good he was before that either) and Wimbush wasn’t the same after he hurt himself running against (I think) NC St.
Book played better at QB this year than last year.
The elite play makers on elite teams display the swagger that comes only from confidence. Those players know that they're the best. ND's players know that they're not the best. Good but not the best. People are conscious, and reality rules. Body language speaks incontrovertibly.
Check out film of Holtz's teams. Talk about spring in the step. But those guys were among CFB's most exciting players. ND no longer has players as a whole of that caliber. Clusters of them, yes; a whole team, no. Anyone who was around then who still can see knows this.
ND's talent at QB and WR is serviceable and at times approaches the highest levels. But only AT TIMES. ND's excellence at these positions is neither of the highest caliber nor consistent. Which makes the notion of consistent ND top-5 teams a poor bet . We don't even know if what ND is doing now is sustainable.
As respects RB, the situation is worse. Traditionally, ND has always had a least one potential star at RB, often two. But its stable of backs is now thinner than ever. Then look at PSU. Any one of their four EXPLOSIVE backs is far better than anyone currently on ND's roster.
Each of those PSU backs played in the bowl game and each racked up serious yardage.
It all goes back to one thing. ND is a RESTRICTED RECRUITER.
The most restricted recruiters are the lower ranked programs that don't give out sports scholarships at all. It's safe to say none of them will win an NC.
The next most restricted group is the Ivy League, where academics take precedence even more so than at ND. Don't look for Yale or Princeton to win an NC.
The next most restricted group are the academies. Even though they can sometimes put up double digit winning seasons, don't count on any of them winning an NC.
The next most restricted group are other schools that emphasize academics: Stanford, Vanderbilt, Duke, Rice -- we all know the list. And, clearly, ND still recruits better than any of them, though, in fact, it's one of them. But, for the same reason the others in this group won't win an NC, it's likely ND won't either.
Teams winning NC's these days have no recruiting restrictions whatever. And even then, only one of them wins the NC. You win with the best, most confident players. It was quite apparent that the level of play at noon yesterday on ABC was not equal to the level of play at 8 PM on ESPN.
If ND wants to win an NC, it will take time, some convenient amnesia re the Holtz years, and some significant bending of rules. Otherwise, recruiting restrictions will continue to bite.
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Excuses.
I'm so tired of the excuses.
Let's just spit ball here....ok?
If we took one of the highest rated players from the following,
Clemson, OSU, Bama, Stanford, Duke, Virginia, Georgia...
That's 7 kids we flip to us and believe this or not the elites aren't chock full of remedial short bus riding students. We could get more better players in.
If we must do it better than the other guy so be it but this mentality that we must make it extra easy on the HC is absurd. He might have to work harder and do it better than the other guy but it's still possible.
I echo again...QB regression has nothing to do with athletic ability. 17 false starts on the road have nothing to do with athletic ability. That's actually glaring because that's a mental approach and according to you and other apologists we have these elite bright kids that are too smart for Harvard.
Apparently you suck at athletics if you can get in to ND. That's the new mantra.
What the hell ever
Over this 3 year stretch we are a top 7 to 12 program.
And no reason to think we wont stay there or move up some going forward
I some times do not agree with you on your rants, but I have to agree with you here -- ND is not close to the level of talent, and playing style -- LSU, Clemson and OSU would stifle ND. As you said, they play with a purpose, passion and aggression.
True -- but in BIG games (Playoff, BCS Championship, high level teams) -- ND always come out flat! Why is that? This "business as usual", steady tempo and attitude -- look at LSU, Clemson and OSU -- they are flying around, having fun, and playing with energy -- ND lacks that many times.
Alabama was FAR FAR FAR superior to us. I dont care if we had Belichick coaching. That was as big a mismatch as you can ever see.
Clemson game was disappointing offensively.
The teams you mentioned all have more talent than us. Why doesnt a whole bunch of teams play like them....Talent. They got it, we need more of it
Add 2019 Michigan, and 2017 Miami to that list. Apparently we can’t compete with those two teams either as was shown on the scoreboard.
I guess Ohio State couldn't compete with Purdue last year. They got smoked by 30.
You make it sound like Holtz had all 5 star recruits to work with. Most of his teams were far from the most talented. The 88 Miami team on paper was far superior to ND, but they were developed, coached, and played at an elite level. This helped them overcome the talent gap and win a national championship.
Fast forward 30 years and what’s lacking is the development, and coaching compared to the top 10 teams. Once Lou had his teams going from year 3 on his teams NEVER got their doors blown off. BK in year 10 still has those wtf games that leaves your head scratching. That’s the difference between an elite coach, which what Lou was vs a 2nd tier coach like BK.
Was anyone beating the Boilermakers on that night with that kid and all going on?
How did Urban do otherwise? His only loss was that night...and what do ya know...he won another major bowl game.Something BK has yet to be competitive in...in his entire career...let alone actually win one.
Urban who loves a tough running QB conceded to allowing the QB to throw... a lot...for an insane 50...FIFTY touchdown passes.
Brian Kelly is fools gold.
When it happens to a guy that’s won multiple national championships, and lays an egg one time in 10-15 years of coaching, you can look past it.
With BK, it’s an annual occurrence. Then you add the fact that he hasn’t come close to winning a championship, you have no choice but to question if he’s the guy that’s going to get you to the next level.
LSU—lose 9 out of 10 times
Ohio State—lose 9 out of 10 times
Clemson—lose 9 out of 10 times
Oklahoma—lose 7 out of 10 times
Georgia—lose 7 out of 10 times
Oregon—lose 6/7 out of 10 times
Baylor—lose 6 out of 10 or split
Wisconsin—lose 7 out of 10 times
Florida—lose 6 out of 10 times or maybe split
Penn State—lose 6 out of 10 times
I disagree with Oklahoma, Baylor, Florida Penn State for sure.
Youre giving those teams to much credit and us not enough
Yes a lot of teams wouldve beat Purdue that night, Ohio wasnt prepared.
Ohio State lost the year before to an unranked Iowa by 31. What was the problem then?
No one was comparing Urban and Kelly. Point was one game doesnt mean you cant compete with a team....michigan ln 19 miami 17. I was responding to his point.
Your point that I responded had nothing to do with your Kelly cant win a title diatribe.
It was about the outcome of one game doesnt mean you cant compete with that team.
Michigan 19
Miami 17
And Ohio got smoked the year before by 31 to unranked Iowa
My point is the difference is Urban and OSU have beaten elite teams. Have won on the biggest stage. BK has yet to accomplish any of that, and he lays eggs annually.
This was your post. Had nothing to do with Urban or anyone else.
My point was just because we lost doesnt mean we couldnt compete with those 2 teams
Again my point is. BK gives us a head scratcher EVERY year. We can go back all 10 years. Tulsa, Navy, we can go on and on. Not much has changed from BK v1 to BK v2
Disagree 100% as you already know.
Miami and Michigan were top 15 teams
Navy and Tulsa were unranked.
33 and 6. Not a loss to an unranked team. 2 bowl wins. Made the playoffs. Strength staff is night and day different. Staff is better. BK v2 is much much better. Not even close. And it's going to continue every year
We were fortunate to beat both USC and Virginia Tech this year. Some funky calls by the refs relating to roughing the passer I think. Either way, this team deserved to play in a better bowl against a higher ranked opponent. I think the fans deserve to see a more even match up too. But its all about the playoffs. I think we should have played Auburn and Minnesota should have played Iowa State. Much better match ups.
I disagree to a certain extent. Wisconsin wins consistently and gives OSU a battle almost every year. On paper ND is more talented than Wisconsin. There are other examples...
We've given Georgia a battle twice. Clemson. Florida state etc.
Wisconsin got beat by Illinois too. I dont understand the point you are making
I'm not making excuses for anything. ND doesn't get the talent to go the distance. Some sporadic bumps, some useful scheduling, but in no wise does ND match up with the various NC winners since Carroll arrived at USC. Even in Holtz's later years, there was a noticeable gap.
ND put the brakes on admissions and never let up. 30 years of under performance vs. the prior 70 years isn't exactly anecdotal evidence. Kelly, himself, just admitted as much by saying ND isn't getting better if it doesn't exceed its current 5 to 15 range in recruiting.
He also went so far as to say that he has a plan that will somehow fix that and place ND in the 1 to 5 range. Good luck with that without major support from ND's admin and admissions folks. Because that's exactly what it will take.
The Yankees have tried to finesse a WS appearance the last several years with just not quite enough pitching. Didn't want to spend for that killer arm. This year, they said screw it and went out and signed Cole. In other words, they did what they had to.
Will ND actually ever do that?
We'll see. Right now, Kelly's new magic strategy is just talk. Let's see him bring in consistent 1 through 5 classes. Let's see exactly how that will be achieved. Hell, I'm open to anything. But let's see it actually happen.
Oh please..
Kelly himself says a lot doesn't he... but this one takes the cake.
Tell the national audience that the players you sold your soul to recruiting that they ultimately suck and can never win anything of note.
At least he got something right...HE will NEVER compete with the elites based on his coaching.
So gather up all the best players and then what? You still have to coach them and most of Notre Dame's problems are NOT the material on the field but the sideline wearing headsets.
Mega star players going to stop simple little mental errors of the game out of simply ignorance at practice? Star recruits going to get amped up all by themselves for a high stakes game when the world is watching?
QB...which is by far the most important position in football today by a wide margin going to start progressing?
There is so much wrong with what Brian Kelly does or doesn't do and the majority is cerebral...not physical.
According to you we already have the smart kids who apparently can't be a good athlete so now we are going to accept dumb ones to make matters even worse because I say again...problems are cerebral.
This whole thing is nonsense.
BK is not a good coach. Period.
That the coaching has to be there is a given, so it's not the deciding factor. Having the right personnel in quantity is. Could a back like Tony Jones, as game as he is, even see the field at Bama or even PSU? Not likely.
Whether Kelly is a good enough coach is debatable, but he's never had the benefit of a Saban roster. So, we have no idea what he would do with one.
At the same time, Saban has never, while at Bama, had to labor with the usual holes in an ND roster. So, he could easily do worse at ND, even as Kelly could do better at Bama.
To be a better coach, you also need better athletes. Makes the job at lot easier. ND no longer has those athletes in quantity. Fewer AA's, fewer first round picks, and virtually no Heisman contenders who've actually had a shot at winning.
This is not my father's ND or even mine. Academic schools that don't prioritize football are unlikely to win NC's regardless of the coach.
Not only does history tell us this, including ND's history but also the current college landscape. Look at who's winning NC's and who isn't.
ND is good but has a definite, self-imposed ceiling. And virtually everyone knows it.
As for ND's current players, they certainly don't suck. There are simply too few of them of championship mettle.
And ND is not alone in this. For reasons of their own, former powers, such as Nebraska, Tennessee, Miami and others aren't getting the kinds of players they once did either.
Some of this is cyclical, but with ND it's been an almost straight-line phenomenon since around 1991. There have been a few blips, but that's what they've been -- blips. Oddities and outliers trending nowhere. And certainly not up.
Not really. Against USC, the lowest our win probability got in the sec. half was 72%. The lowest it got all game was 69%. We controlled that game.
Against VT, one fluke play changed the course of the game. Yes, VT was close to winning in and had high probabilities late in the game, but lots of circumstances gave the Hokies that position that I don’t think would be likely in most games.
442 to 235 total yards advantage to ND
25 to 12 first downs advantage to ND
Right more talent, so BK the genius has finally realized after 10 YEARS he needs to recruit better. Great idea coach!
The point is, playing a team close isn't good enough. Are we playing horse shoes here? Giving an occasional good team a battle(most of the time its an a$$ whooping) isn't good enough......period.
It’s funny. When people here talk about the title game last year, they use the fact that Alabama gained a bunch of yards while getting blown out as some sort of it should’ve been a lot closer than the score reasoning. But when we dominate a team statistically and eke out the win because of turnovers, we were lucky to win.
This board will make you laugh sometimes. They'll do anything to try to make Kelly look bad in their eyes
Let's get a few things straight....
I've already said having better material makes coaching easier. Anyone who's been directly involved in the game on the sidelines knows first hand that life is easier with great talent.
Having said that let's look at BK's two losses this year.
@UGA we come off the bus false starting. 7 false starts in that game. 7. One or two, can happen but 7 is a huge problem. Something is just off if you're going to have that many false starts. Apparently the problem was miscommunication between what Book was doing with the cadence/clap/silent count and what the players (Kmet) were expecting. You don't even need to be a great coach to recognize this is a problem early on and fix it immediately. He loves burning timeouts at silly moments but he won't call a timeout and gather the offense and say WTH is going on with the snap. This is what the cadence will be going forward so we're all on the same page.
He does nothing but stand on the sideline with that disgusted yet dumbfounded look on his face.
Then makes excuses post game.
That was a game his current so called lousy players could have won. @ Georgia mind you.
Michigan? Just another example of a huge ramification primetime game that his players decided to play flat and lifeless. One team wanted to win by 100 and our team looked like they wanted to be home. Again, it doesn't take a great coach to recognize Michigan is going to make a huge push in that game, especially early, and we better get amped up and match the opponent's emotional and energy level.
The QB play, lack of development, wrong QB playing....all things that have plagued our team for the past decade. Same coach this past decade.
All three things I listed have absolutely nothing to do with talent yet all three things were huge contributors to our losses this year.
They are a direct result of a sideline that has no idea what it's doing in preparation and in game. We have enough talent to beat weak teams in spite of BK. No team can beat an elite opponent and sometimes just an emotionally charged team being unprepared and unmotivated.
Give BK more talent and ultimately the results won't be much different. We'll beat the weak and struggle against the good. He's a lousy coach. Period.
