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Divide on this board representative of the times

"This post is littered with hypocrisy"

I told you the heavy hitters were coming out!

@88ND is a fine poster and I thoroughly enjoy debating with him. I think it is absolutely hilarious though that he would cast judgement onto how people post, and claim posters loose their cool when he
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It is complete hypocrisy. Not to mention that he types chants such as "overrated", to me it seems like he is not the one to be shaming anyone for their actions.
 
This is the crux of the matter.

Kelly is not a good enough recruiter to take ND to the next level.

We can argue semantics on how to break down or define the amount of talent he accumulates but that is all just people talking past each other.

2012 Alabama
2015 Clemson
2015 OSU
2017 UGA
2018 Clemson
2019 UGA

It's all there out in broad daylight for the world to see.

ND is an exception when it comes to being elite, not the rule.

ND made the playoffs last year? That's cute, MSU made the playoffs once too

Any program can catch lightning in a bottle every once in awhile when the stars align. No one actually thought MSU belonged on that stage and no one expected them back anytime soon.

ND has won "ten games" the past three years in a row? That's cute.

Who did they play?

What elite teams did they beat?

What was their best win over that three year time span?

Did they dominate their lesser opponents consistently or did they find themselves in a lot of dogfights against fringe top 25 teams or even all of the MAC opponents?

ND went 10-2 this year. Wonder what their record would have been with TA&M schedule this year?

Would they have made the playoffs in 2018 if there wasn't a one year hiatus in the UGA series?

Would ND be able to trumpet to the skys Kelly's 10 win success if the Pete Carroll era was still going on at USC?

What if ND were a member of the ACC? Would they be making many playoffs with Clemson in the league?

Everyone knows the answers to these rhetorical questions.

Kelly is a good coach but he doesn't possess the inherent intelligence, creativity, vision, or energy level to take ND to the next level. If he could have, he would have.

People can blab on and on about academic restrictions, paying players, etc but at the end of the day certain human beings are capable of amazing feats and some human beings are just better at things than others.

Given what we have accomplished as a human race, I am confident that there exists a human being out in the universe with the inherent intelligence, vision, foresight, and energy that could manage the seemingly inconceivable and consistently recruit a collection of high school football players whom would be considered amongst the top five in the country on a year in and year out basis by leveraging the inherent advantages of the most historical collegiate football program in the nation, which also happens to offer a world class education, and has shown the willingness and ability to provide said individuals in the head coaching position nearly all requested concessions when it comes to deployments of capital.

I know it might appear daunting to sign one or two of these high school athletes labeled as a five star when its possible that perhaps three or four cannot be allowed into the institution due to academic failings. But you would hope again that there would be some human being available on the planet that might perhaps be able to work around this inconvenient obstacle and sign a few of the remaining 25 or so scholastic athletes.

And even were that to be a task too daunting for the human race, we should hold out hope for the future of civilization that there remain out there an individual who could curry favor with the remaining 225 or so scholar athletes included in the various internet periodicals as the most accomplished athletes in the graduating class.

You would hope that given the 225 available candidates there would remain a human on this planet that could attract around 6% of those fine athletes to play football for ND.

I know the above feats sound daunting and some may say impossible. I would challenge the doubters to rise up and grow faith! For we as a people have traversed vast oceans and explored the out planetary regions!

I am a believer in the human race and I stand firm in my convictions that recruiting top 5 classes to ND are in fact possible! That it is not too challenging of a task for the human race to take!

Regrettably, it is beyond the abilities of our current failed and disgraced leader. That is why we must severe ties and bid farewell.

For we as people entrusted by God with the abilities of reason and logic and rationality can deduce that while Kelly is good, he is simply not good enough. For all that has been accomplished by man since the dawn of time, we can stand confident that an individual (or perhaps even 10-15 individuals at any given time) exists out there in the stratosphere that will not get his ass handed to him every year in recruiting and when he leads his men out onto the collegiate football battlefield.


This is so overly dramatic. I feel like I am about to enter into the final scene and death is around the corner.

"I cant see real good is that Bill Shakespeare over there" - Matt Foley
 
This is the crux of the matter.

Kelly is not a good enough recruiter to take ND to the next level.

We can argue semantics on how to break down or define the amount of talent he accumulates but that is all just people talking past each other.

2012 Alabama
2015 Clemson
2015 OSU
2017 UGA
2018 Clemson
2019 UGA

It's all there out in broad daylight for the world to see.

ND is an exception when it comes to being elite, not the rule.

ND made the playoffs last year? That's cute, MSU made the playoffs once too

Any program can catch lightning in a bottle every once in awhile when the stars align. No one actually thought MSU belonged on that stage and no one expected them back anytime soon.

ND has won "ten games" the past three years in a row? That's cute.

Who did they play?

What elite teams did they beat?

What was their best win over that three year time span?

Did they dominate their lesser opponents consistently or did they find themselves in a lot of dogfights against fringe top 25 teams or even all of the MAC opponents?

ND went 10-2 this year. Wonder what their record would have been with TA&M schedule this year?

Would they have made the playoffs in 2018 if there wasn't a one year hiatus in the UGA series?

Would ND be able to trumpet to the skys Kelly's 10 win success if the Pete Carroll era was still going on at USC?

What if ND were a member of the ACC? Would they be making many playoffs with Clemson in the league?

Everyone knows the answers to these rhetorical questions.

Kelly is a good coach but he doesn't possess the inherent intelligence, creativity, vision, or energy level to take ND to the next level. If he could have, he would have.

People can blab on and on about academic restrictions, paying players, etc but at the end of the day certain human beings are capable of amazing feats and some human beings are just better at things than others.

Given what we have accomplished as a human race, I am confident that there exists a human being out in the universe with the inherent intelligence, vision, foresight, and energy that could manage the seemingly inconceivable and consistently recruit a collection of high school football players whom would be considered amongst the top five in the country on a year in and year out basis by leveraging the inherent advantages of the most historical collegiate football program in the nation, which also happens to offer a world class education, and has shown the willingness and ability to provide said individuals in the head coaching position nearly all requested concessions when it comes to deployments of capital.

I know it might appear daunting to sign one or two of these high school athletes labeled as a five star when its possible that perhaps three or four cannot be allowed into the institution due to academic failings. But you would hope again that there would be some human being available on the planet that might perhaps be able to work around this inconvenient obstacle and sign a few of the remaining 25 or so scholastic athletes.

And even were that to be a task too daunting for the human race, we should hold out hope for the future of civilization that there remain out there an individual who could curry favor with the remaining 225 or so scholar athletes included in the various internet periodicals as the most accomplished athletes in the graduating class.

You would hope that given the 225 available candidates there would remain a human on this planet that could attract around 6% of those fine athletes to play football for ND.

I know the above feats sound daunting and some may say impossible. I would challenge the doubters to rise up and grow faith! For we as a people have traversed vast oceans and explored the out planetary regions!

I am a believer in the human race and I stand firm in my convictions that recruiting top 5 classes to ND are in fact possible! That it is not too challenging of a task for the human race to take!

Regrettably, it is beyond the abilities of our current failed and disgraced leader. That is why we must severe ties and bid farewell.

For we as people entrusted by God with the abilities of reason and logic and rationality can deduce that while Kelly is good, he is simply not good enough. For all that has been accomplished by man since the dawn of time, we can stand confident that an individual (or perhaps even 10-15 individuals at any given time) exists out there in the stratosphere that will not get his ass handed to him every year in recruiting and when he leads his men out onto the collegiate football battlefield.

We don't even have to look beyond this past century. Charlie Weis brought in the composite #6, #5, and #2 class from 2006-2008 and topped it off with probably his best class in 2009 in terms of raw productivity even though it was ranked 10th i believe.

This point you are making here about closing the talent gap should be obvious to any human being with any common sense and critical thinking skills. Yet we still find ourselves in a debate with half of the fan base on this issue alone.

Brian Kelly has had 10 years to close the talent gap and hasn't succeeded. I also don't buy the excuse that ND no longer offers an A1 package unique to ND that would attract the creme de la creme on the recruiting trail. We've had no other coach/recruiting cycle to compare to in over 10 years and the last coach was able to pull in five star and high 4 star talent regularly and had ND somewhere on/near the border of the first tier in talent/recruiting for 3+ years.

Ultimately Weis couldn't coach and there were other issues with the roster but he killed the narrative that ND can't pull in/attract the type of studs who rank top 5 at their position out of HS in the modern era. Yet we find ourselves over and over again hearing that narrative to defend away BKs mediocrity on the recruiting trail (in the same way it was used to defend Davie & Willingham when they were still popular guys on campus).
 
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We don't even have to look beyond this past century. Charlie Weis brought in the composite #6, #5, and #2 class from 2006-2008 and topped it off with probably his best class in 2009 in terms of raw productivity even though it was ranked 10th i believe.

This point you are making here about closing the talent gap should be obvious to any human being with any common sense and critical thinking skills. Yet we still find ourselves in a debate with half of the fan base on this issue alone.

Brian Kelly has had 10 years to close the talent gap and hasn't succeeded. I also don't buy the excuse that ND no longer offers an A1 package unique to ND that would attract the creme de la creme on the recruiting trail. We've had no other coach/recruiting cycle to compare to in over 10 years and the last coach was able to pull in five star and high 4 star talent regularly and had somewhere on the border of the first tier in recruiting for 3 years.

"We don't even have to look beyond this past century. Charlie Weis brought in the composite #6, #5, and #2 class from 2006-2008 and topped it off with probably his best class in 2009 in terms of raw productivity even though it was ranked 10th i believe." And exactly how many wins did this talent bring to the school chase? How many chances for a title did we have with this talent?

Where is this coming from, I thought you were after truth and accuracy? Who cares if you bring in talent if you cant win it really does not matter. Is that difficult to understand?
 
"We don't even have to look beyond this past century. Charlie Weis brought in the composite #6, #5, and #2 class from 2006-2008 and topped it off with probably his best class in 2009 in terms of raw productivity even though it was ranked 10th i believe." And exactly how many wins did this talent bring to the school chase? How many chances for a title did we have with this talent?

Where is this coming from, I thought you were after truth and accuracy? Who cares if you bring in talent if you cant win it really does not matter. Is that difficult to understand?

Respectfully, I don't think you are following his point.

He was strictly notong how the last coach at ND was able to pull in highly regarded recruiting classes and therefore that might present the possibility that it could potentially be considered a task that can be accomplished by some individuals who reside on this planet and it should not be considered one of greatest feats of mankind to bring in a top 5 class to ND.

I don't believe he was opining on the coaching acumen of Charlie Weis.

I believe you might be engaging in some ad hominem activities right now in order to derail the conversation because you can't otherwise think of a way to discredit his point.

Again, respectfully
 
Respectfully, I don't think you are following his point.

He was strictly notong how the last coach at ND was able to pull in highly regarded recruiting classes and therefore that might present the possibility that it could potentially be considered a task that can be accomplished by some individuals who reside on this planet and it should not be considered one of greatest feats of mankind to bring in a top 5 class to ND.

I don't believe he was opining on the coaching acumen of Charlie Weis.

I believe you might be engaging in some ad hominem activities right now in order to derail the conversation because you can't otherwise think of a way to discredit his point.

Again, respectfully

Yeah it is a bad point. Tennessee brought in top 5 talent for several years in a row and what do they have to show for it? I mean who freaking cares if you can recruit, it does not directly result in wins does it? No. So how is that a good point? If ND brought in a top 5 class three years in a row and went 3-9,7-7 and 6-6 following would you call that a success? No. (by the way that was our record following those classes) So why is it a point even worth noting? Again, a low football IQ statement (not a personal attack)

Again, you are starting to derail the conversation with some kind of suggestion that I am insane or angry. I am just calling out someones "facts" that are clearly wrong.
 
BK is doing the one thing JS brought him to ND for, rebuild the ND program from the ground up. I don't think most people truly understand how much trouble ND was in when CW came on board. The big guy showed the media and fans that Davie and Loserham were wrong-you still can recruit at ND. BK, an experienced program builder, came in and did the job the big guy wasn't experienced enough to do. JS will never fire BK for doing the job he was brought to ND for. The ND program will be in extremely good position when BK retires some day. I think you have to go back to the Devine retirement to find ND so will positioned upon a coaches retirement. The next hire will be the most important hire since ND "messed itself" and hired Jerry Faust, who had no business coaching Notre Dame.
This is true. BK is waaay better than Weis. We need to recruit better. We also need better assistants. Saying that shouldn’t add you to the witch hunt.
 
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Its just completely ridiculous that I go on each thread and find the same jargon from the same people day in and day out. It baffles me that people can be so negative and hide behind the term "realist" as their excuse to spew messages of negativity about this team. I find it completely inane that we the "fans" cannot come together to find common ground on anything we talk about on here, and claim to be supporting the same team and program we all love.

There is a difference between criticism and negativity, and it is clear that posters don't see that reality. Criticism is 100% warranted in year 10 with no title, it is warranted with a blow out loss to UM, it is warranted when it comes to lack of "big wins" and countless mishaps, but it is not warranted on every thread every single day. The inability to yield any kind of positive response from the majority of posters on here exhibits a clear lack of coming togetherness that fanhood should be about. The unwillingness to say that we are a program with tradition that, in the last 30 years has been awful, but thanks to Brain Kelly we are back on the map is clear distinction that posters just want to argue and not acknowledge the good, but focus on the bad.

You see me reaching toward the middle, acknowledging short comings and many other posters do the same, but our focus is on the good that has come in the past 10 years, do you ever see the other side willing to acknowledge the good? Rather they dismiss it and cast you as an "apologist".

There is a lot to be said about a fan base like ours, a blue blood with nothing to show within most of our life times, yet our expectations are outrageous and our complaints continue to spew. I'm tired of the negative attitude exemplified on this board, and especially by those who seem to make up facts to "prove" their points.

It's not all sunshine and rainbows, no it is not, but this circus has gotten to be way too much.
Your opinion is respected but not agreed with. Have a great Holiday.
 
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Right, ten years isn't enough time, just give him 10 MORE YEARS
That's crap. He took over a dumpster fire and had to rebuild. Also the program needed to get with the times in the arm race. It was never going to be a quick fix unless we hired Urban Saban or Dabo. That wasnt happening. Last 3 years were yr 8, 9 and 10 for Kelly. He has rebuilt the team. The last 3 years and moving forward you are seeing him get to the next level.

Expect another double digit win season next yr, possible playoff team and a very good recruiting class. He has built it back up, lets see if he can finish the deal.

Keep building Coach
 
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Merry Christmas to you as well!

Oh joy!

Nicely done guys! I'm so proud of this friendly and respectful exchange!

I can sense the tone and culture improving on this board each day!

The positive momentum and energy is palatable!

We can have disagreements (....respectfully) but at the end of the day we are all Irish fans!

My cup doth runneth over!
 
Oh joy!

Nicely done guys! I'm so proud of this friendly and respectful exchange!

I can sense the tone and culture improving on this board each day!

The positive momentum and energy is palatable!

We can have disagreements (....respectfully) but at the end of the day we are all Irish fans!

My cup doth runneth over!

Didn't you claim this as a let peeve of yours? When posters jump in on conversations they are not in? Hypocrisy continues
 
Didn't you claim this as a let peeve of yours? When posters jump in on conversations they are not in? Hypocrisy continues

Certainly we can ascertain the difference between butting in between two people having a spirited debate as opposed to words of encouragement when good example is set for the board?

Remember, we should continue to develop the concepts of context and nuance.

They will continue to develop the quality of the board at a rapid pace and also cut down on the incendiary knee jerk reactions that so often lead to unfortunate altercations on the board.

Again, I laud your efforts today and you ended with a very encouraging message for the board.

Let's keep this positive momentum going!

Tis the season!!
 
Certainly we can ascertain the difference between butting in between two people having a spirited debate as opposed to words of encouragement when good example is set for the board?

Remember, we should continue to develop the concepts of context and nuance.

They will continue to develop the quality of the board at a rapid pace and also cut down on the incendiary knee jerk reactions that so often lead to unfortunate altercations on the board.

Again, I laud your efforts today and you ended with a very encouraging message for the board.

Let's keep this positive momentum going!

Tis the season!!

I give you credit, you are the most eloquent, well spoken troll I have ever had the pleasure of engaging with.
 
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That's crap. He took over a dumpster fire and had to rebuild. Also the program needed to get with the times in the arm race. It was never going to be a quick fix unless we hired Urban Saban or Dabo. That wasnt happening. Last 3 years were yr 8, 9 and 10 for Kelly. He has rebuilt the team. The last 3 years and moving forward you are seeing him get to the next level.

Expect another double digit win season next yr, possible playoff team and a very good recruiting class. He has built it back up, lets see if he can finish the deal.

Keep building Coach
Getting blown out in the playoff last year to going 10-2 and losing the two big games for the year is taking it to the next level? Going to the Camping World Bowl is the next level? Geez..........Problem is he can't finish the deal, hes gone as far as he can go. Another ten years will be a repeat of what we have already seen.
 
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Clemson has 6 5 star recruits. 6.

There is no way to compete with that when you have Dabo coaching. We have to recruit better. Period.

And Clemson’s recruiting them at our most difficult type to recruit, i.e., difference making DL. They have an incredible defensive coordinator who’s playing wrecking crew future NFL linemen.
 
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And Clemson’s recruiting them at our most difficult type to recruit, i.e., difference making DL. They have an incredible defensive coordinator who’s playing wrecking crew future NFL linemen.
We're recruiting very well at DL lately. And developing them
 
We won 12 games last year so thats not true....

And our DL play wasnt the reason we lost to Clemson. Not even close.

Nice try though
10,11,12 it doesn’t matter. We will NOT win a significant game without change. Prove me wrong. It’s been 3 decades, pal. Nothing even remotely close to a championship. All of the facts are on my side. Get better and work harder, nobody cares!
 
10,11,12 it doesn’t matter. We will NOT win a significant game without change. Prove me wrong. It’s been 3 decades, pal. Nothing even remotely close to a championship. All of the facts are on my side. Get better and work harder, nobody cares!
What an idiot
 
10,11,12 it doesn’t matter. We will NOT win a significant game without change. Prove me wrong. It’s been 3 decades, pal. Nothing even remotely close to a championship. All of the facts are on my side. Get better and work harder, nobody cares!

"Prove me wrong. It’s been 3 decades, pal. Nothing even remotely close to a championship"


I seem to recall a BCS Championship game, a playoff semi final -- seems a little closer
 
10,11,12 it doesn’t matter. We will NOT win a significant game without change. Prove me wrong. It’s been 3 decades, pal. Nothing even remotely close to a championship. All of the facts are on my side. Get better and work harder, nobody cares!
let's see, in 2018 only 4 teams out of 129 had the opportunity to win the national championship. Notre Dame was one of them. now that is a FACT.
 
"Prove me wrong. It’s been 3 decades, pal. Nothing even remotely close to a championship"

I seem to recall a BCS Championship game, a playoff semi final -- seems a little closer
Did we come close to winning? Do you actually think I wasn’t aware of those games?
 
Its just completely ridiculous that I go on each thread and find the same jargon from the same people day in and day out. It baffles me that people can be so negative and hide behind the term "realist" as their excuse to spew messages of negativity about this team. I find it completely inane that we the "fans" cannot come together to find common ground on anything we talk about on here, and claim to be supporting the same team and program we all love.

There is a difference between criticism and negativity, and it is clear that posters don't see that reality. Criticism is 100% warranted in year 10 with no title, it is warranted with a blow out loss to UM, it is warranted when it comes to lack of "big wins" and countless mishaps, but it is not warranted on every thread every single day. The inability to yield any kind of positive response from the majority of posters on here exhibits a clear lack of coming togetherness that fanhood should be about. The unwillingness to say that we are a program with tradition that, in the last 30 years has been awful, but thanks to Brain Kelly we are back on the map is clear distinction that posters just want to argue and not acknowledge the good, but focus on the bad.

You see me reaching toward the middle, acknowledging short comings and many other posters do the same, but our focus is on the good that has come in the past 10 years, do you ever see the other side willing to acknowledge the good? Rather they dismiss it and cast you as an "apologist".

There is a lot to be said about a fan base like ours, a blue blood with nothing to show within most of our life times, yet our expectations are outrageous and our complaints continue to spew. I'm tired of the negative attitude exemplified on this board, and especially by those who seem to make up facts to "prove" their points.

It's not all sunshine and rainbows, no it is not, but this circus has gotten to be way too much.
Great post. Great perspective. Hit the nail hide. Glass is half full analogy
 
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