Divide on this board representative of the times

[Catholicfan95]

Its just completely ridiculous that I go on each thread and find the same jargon from the same people day in and day out. It baffles me that people can be so negative and hide behind the term "realist" as their excuse to spew messages of negativity about this team. I find it completely inane that we the "fans" cannot come together to find common ground on anything we talk about on here, and claim to be supporting the same team and program we all love.

There is a difference between criticism and negativity, and it is clear that posters don't see that reality. Criticism is 100% warranted in year 10 with no title, it is warranted with a blow out loss to UM, it is warranted when it comes to lack of "big wins" and countless mishaps, but it is not warranted on every thread every single day. The inability to yield any kind of positive response from the majority of posters on here exhibits a clear lack of coming togetherness that fanhood should be about. The unwillingness to say that we are a program with tradition that, in the last 30 years has been awful, but thanks to Brain Kelly we are back on the map is clear distinction that posters just want to argue and not acknowledge the good, but focus on the bad.

You see me reaching toward the middle, acknowledging short comings and many other posters do the same, but our focus is on the good that has come in the past 10 years, do you ever see the other side willing to acknowledge the good? Rather they dismiss it and cast you as an "apologist".

There is a lot to be said about a fan base like ours, a blue blood with nothing to show within most of our life times, yet our expectations are outrageous and our complaints continue to spew. I'm tired of the negative attitude exemplified on this board, and especially by those who seem to make up facts to "prove" their points.

It's not all sunshine and rainbows, no it is not, but this circus has gotten to be way too much.

 

[d1042]

as a poster noted - the top of the class is very talented. That is where the impacts are found.

 

[Catholicfan95]

as a poster noted - the top of the class is very talented. That is where the impacts are found.

Well, to quote Mr. Gump "stupid is as stupid does"

 

[deadprez3]

You could describe the divide as the rational (those that realize Kelly is good, but not good enough) and the irrational (those that hold fast to support of Kelly in the face of all sound evidence and logical data).

The rational can only tolerate the irrational for so long in any environment. Even a message board.

I think we have reached critical mass here on this board.

We will need to bring back rationality and not tolerate the inane continuous talking points and narratives of the irrational (we've heard them all and know them well).

Until this can be accomplished, the irrational will continue to deteriorate the quality of the board and undermine any reasonable and productive football discourse.

Regrettably, this will ultimately result in some of our more valued posters temporarily leaving and not contributing as it has happened during the latter years of the other failed regimes.

That Kelly has been allowed to continue on in his slightly above average manner for so long has brought great stress to the fanbase and himself.

Each party should have mutually agreed to part ways after 2016.

As it stands now, we will have to likely endure his incompetence for another three years at which time we will finally be free of his failed tenure ready to start anew.

Hopefully by that time Swarbrick will have been dispatched as well as he is the ultimate architect of this unfortunate and regrettable decade in ND football history.

 

[BGI User 1596]

You could describe the divide as the rational (those that realize Kelly is good, but not good enough) and the irrational (those that hold fast to support of Kelly in the face of all sound evidence and logical data).

The rational can only tolerate the irrational for so long in any environment. Even a message board.

I think we have reached critical mass here on this board.

We will need to bring back rationality and not tolerate the inane continuous talking points and narratives of the irrational (we've heard them all and know them well).

Until this can be accomplished, the irrational will continue to deteriorate the quality of the board and undermine any reasonable and productive football discourse.

Regrettably, this will ultimately result in some of our more valued posters temporarily leaving and not contributing as it has happened during the latter years of the other failed regimes.

That Kelly has been allowed to continue on in his slightly above average manner for so long has brought great stress to the fanbase and himself.

Each party should have mutually agreed to part ways after 2016.

As it stands now, we will have to likely endure his incompetence for another three years at which time we will finally be free of his failed tenure ready to start anew.

Hopefully by that time Swarbrick will have been dispatched as well as he is the ultimate architect of this unfortunate and regrettable decade in ND football history.

Ouches!

 

[Catholicfan95]

You could describe the divide as the rational (those that realize Kelly is good, but not good enough) and the irrational (those that hold fast to support of Kelly in the face of all sound evidence and logical data).

The rational can only tolerate the irrational for so long in any environment. Even a message board.

I think we have reached critical mass here on this board.

We will need to bring back rationality and not tolerate the inane continuous talking points and narratives of the irrational (we've heard them all and know them well).

Until this can be accomplished, the irrational will continue to deteriorate the quality of the board and undermine any reasonable and productive football discourse.

Regrettably, this will ultimately result in some of our more valued posters temporarily leaving and not contributing as it has happened during the latter years of the other failed regimes.

That Kelly has been allowed to continue on in his slightly above average manner for so long has brought great stress to the fanbase and himself.

Each party should have mutually agreed to part ways after 2016.

As it stands now, we will have to likely endure his incompetence for another three years at which time we will finally be free of his failed tenure ready to start anew.

Hopefully by that time Swarbrick will have been dispatched as well as he is the ultimate architect of this unfortunate and regrettable decade in ND football history.

The door swings both ways, don't let it tap ya on the way out. (Not a personal attack)

 

[HDK]

When I first saw this thread, I thought to myself, "Well, here's another pissing match about to begin!"

 

[Catholicfan95]

When I first saw this thread, I thought to myself, "Well, here's another pissing match about to begin!"

Gotta stand tall when the wolves are at the door. I encourage you to watch the amount of repetitive data that is presented on the negative side, and the over stated, overreaction of the state of the program. You will also see a clear denial of facts from negative posters and I think *johnny Carson Carnac skit* ( many posters are not old enough nor have the exposure to the great skit, uncultured swines lol) Miami, Michigan, Lou Holtz and Complacency!

Enjoy

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

You could describe the divide as the rational (those that realize Kelly is good, but not good enough) and the irrational (those that hold fast to support of Kelly in the face of all sound evidence and logical data).

The rational can only tolerate the irrational for so long in any environment. Even a message board.

I think we have reached critical mass here on this board.

We will need to bring back rationality and not tolerate the inane continuous talking points and narratives of the irrational (we've heard them all and know them well).

Until this can be accomplished, the irrational will continue to deteriorate the quality of the board and undermine any reasonable and productive football discourse.

Regrettably, this will ultimately result in some of our more valued posters temporarily leaving and not contributing as it has happened during the latter years of the other failed regimes.

That Kelly has been allowed to continue on in his slightly above average manner for so long has brought great stress to the fanbase and himself.

Each party should have mutually agreed to part ways after 2016.

As it stands now, we will have to likely endure his incompetence for another three years at which time we will finally be free of his failed tenure ready to start anew.

Hopefully by that time Swarbrick will have been dispatched as well as he is the ultimate architect of this unfortunate and regrettable decade in ND football history.

Thank you. I’m glad you’re here , sir!

I believe you’re even less of a fan of Kelly than I am. I am thankful for him and his successes. I actually don’t feel we can do better, so I’d like to keep him around for as long as possible. I’m just bitching about the fact that I don’t think we can do better, and it sucks.

I swing both ways. I’m positive about Book and Kelly, but quite negative about assistant coaches and recruiting. The problem is to some people any single negative comment warrants an all out attack.

How boring would this forum be if everyone was always positive like they want. What a cheesy lame and pathetic forum that would be. The same people that want society to agree with their political views and gang up on people when they disagree. Sign of the times is right.

 

[d1042]

for most seasons, ND recruits better than 10 teams on it’s schedule.
So depending on those other 2 games ND is a contender for the 4th playoff spot. The real problem is that we have learned, once in the playoffs ND suffers a notable talent deficiency and is only somewhat competitive.

 

[Catholicfan95]

Thank you. I’m glad you’re here , sir!

I believe you’re even less of a fan of Kelly than I am. I am thankful for him and his successes. I actually don’t feel we can do better, so I’d like to keep him around for as long as possible. I’m just bitching about the fact that I don’t think we can do better, and it sucks.

I swing both ways. I’m positive about Book and Kelly, but quite negative about assistant coaches and recruiting. The problem is to some people any single negative comment warrants an all out attack.

How boring would this forum be if everyone was always positive like they want. What a cheesy lame and pathetic forum that would be. The same people that want society to agree with their political views and gang up on people when they disagree. Sign of the times is right.

Birds of a feather flock together!

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

for most seasons, ND recruits better than 10 teams on it’s schedule.
So depending on those other 2 games ND is a contender for the 4th playoff spot. The real problem is that we have learned, once in the playoffs ND suffers a notable talent deficiency and is only somewhat competitive.

Clemson has 6 5 star recruits. 6.

There is no way to compete with that when you have Dabo coaching. We have to recruit better. Period.

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

Birds of a feather flock together!

Great response.

 

[Catholicfan95]

Great response.

It is, like that time you literally threatened me with violence. It was very comical.

Edit: your boy el deadprez up there does not at all approve of cyber bullying so you better watch your temper mister.

 

[d1042]

Clemson has 6 5 star recruits. 6.

There is no way to compete with that when you have Dabo coaching. We have to recruit better. Period.

and to think it could have been 8!

 

[chitown sot]

Its just completely ridiculous that I go on each thread and find the same jargon from the same people day in and day out. It baffles me that people can be so negative and hide behind the term "realist" as their excuse to spew messages of negativity about this team. I find it completely inane that we the "fans" cannot come together to find common ground on anything we talk about on here, and claim to be supporting the same team and program we all love.

There is a difference between criticism and negativity, and it is clear that posters don't see that reality. Criticism is 100% warranted in year 10 with no title, it is warranted with a blow out loss to UM, it is warranted when it comes to lack of "big wins" and countless mishaps, but it is not warranted on every thread every single day. The inability to yield any kind of positive response from the majority of posters on here exhibits a clear lack of coming togetherness that fanhood should be about. The unwillingness to say that we are a program with tradition that, in the last 30 years has been awful, but thanks to Brain Kelly we are back on the map is clear distinction that posters just want to argue and not acknowledge the good, but focus on the bad.

You see me reaching toward the middle, acknowledging short comings and many other posters do the same, but our focus is on the good that has come in the past 10 years, do you ever see the other side willing to acknowledge the good? Rather they dismiss it and cast you as an "apologist".

There is a lot to be said about a fan base like ours, a blue blood with nothing to show within most of our life times, yet our expectations are outrageous and our complaints continue to spew. I'm tired of the negative attitude exemplified on this board, and especially by those who seem to make up facts to "prove" their points.

It's not all sunshine and rainbows, no it is not, but this circus has gotten to be way too much.

I'll give you this, BK has turned ND around and done some very good things. However, he has reached his ceiling, hes gone as far as he can go. Time for a new HC to take ND over the top.

 

[chitown sot]

Thank you. I’m glad you’re here , sir!

I believe you’re even less of a fan of Kelly than I am. I am thankful for him and his successes. I actually don’t feel we can do better, so I’d like to keep him around for as long as possible. I’m just bitching about the fact that I don’t think we can do better, and it sucks.

I swing both ways. I’m positive about Book and Kelly, but quite negative about assistant coaches and recruiting. The problem is to some people any single negative comment warrants an all out attack.

How boring would this forum be if everyone was always positive like they want. What a cheesy lame and pathetic forum that would be. The same people that want society to agree with their political views and gang up on people when they disagree. Sign of the times is right.

How can you be positive about kelly but negative on assistant coaches and recruiting when BK is the ONE who hires these coaches and is responsible for recruiting. That statement makes no sense.

 

[chitown sot]

Clemson has 6 5 star recruits. 6.

There is no way to compete with that when you have Dabo coaching. We have to recruit better. Period.

And coach better

 

[chaseball]

for most seasons, ND recruits better than 10 teams on it’s schedule.
So depending on those other 2 games ND is a contender for the 4th playoff spot. The real problem is that we have learned, once in the playoffs ND suffers a notable talent deficiency and is only somewhat competitive.

This is the incorrect way to look at it.

ND is competing with 130+ schools for 4 playoff spots. The only thing ND can control is how good of a program they are.

As we've learned record is only one factor of many used to determine where you land in the playoff rankings.

How much you dominate your schedule is a big factor
The quality of your wins is another
Performance vs common opponents
Not losing to mediocre/bad teams
Having favorable rankings in computer polls that take many misc. granular factors into consideration

etc.etc.etc.

It isn't enough to have more talent (or be better than most teams on your schedule)...in order to beat the college football rankings you need to be one of the 4 best teams in the country which ultimately means being one of the 4 most talented teams in the country

and ND MUST RECRUIT SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER in order to acheive that goal

 

[Ara64]

BK is doing the one thing JS brought him to ND for, rebuild the ND program from the ground up. I don't think most people truly understand how much trouble ND was in when CW came on board. The big guy showed the media and fans that Davie and Loserham were wrong-you still can recruit at ND. BK, an experienced program builder, came in and did the job the big guy wasn't experienced enough to do. JS will never fire BK for doing the job he was brought to ND for. The ND program will be in extremely good position when BK retires some day. I think you have to go back to the Devine retirement to find ND so will positioned upon a coaches retirement. The next hire will be the most important hire since ND "messed itself" and hired Jerry Faust, who had no business coaching Notre Dame.

 

[chaseball]

BK is doing the one thing JS brought him to ND for, rebuild the ND program from the ground up. I don't think most people truly understand how much trouble ND was in when CW came on board. The big guy showed the media and fans that Davie and Loserham were wrong-you still can recruit at ND. BK, an experienced program builder, came in and did the job the big guy wasn't experienced enough to do. JS will never fire BK for doing the job he was brought to ND for. The ND program will be in extremely good position when BK retires some day. I think you have to go back to the Devine retirement to find ND so will positioned upon a coaches retirement. The next hire will be the most important hire since ND "messed itself" and hired Jerry Faust, who had no business coaching Notre Dame.

Why is ND loyal to BK despite BK making it pretty clear he'll jump somewhere else if offered a better opportunity/salary? (I don't blame him for wanting a bigger salary but I don't see BK as a "loyal to the organization" type of guy). Remember back in 2012 when he was at the top of the profession for a few weeks when ND had the #1 recruiting class and #1 team in the country before getting ran over by Alabama? If the Eagles offered BK he would have taken that job. Anytime he's had a good year since his name is fully entrenched in other opportunities where higher pay/status might be involved.

Also, Charlie Weis left BK a really talented group of star players (the roster wasnt as deep or balanced--especially in the front 7 as it is now--but the top end of the roster was far more talented).

I believe BK has really modernized the program to catch up with the rest of the top of college football in a lot of areas especially as it relates to policies, infrastructure, stadium environment, etc. He's certainly also built a much deeper roster (the guys as far back as 3 & 4 deep at a position can compete with the guys on the 2 deep). There have been tons of necessary behind the scenes changes in this regard that will make the job far more attractive to the next suitor and BK deserves a tremendous amount of credit for that.

But I think BK maxed his ceiling somewhere in 2015 and the program has stagnated since. ND has paid a high opportunity cost in retaining/extending him .. there has been a lot of coaching turnover (coaches ND could have taken a chance on that went to other programs and had success elsewhere instead). What's most frustrating to me is that despite the extremely predictable results/ceiling BK is still getting extended/retained in the year 2020 with no change in sight.

 

[Kelso86]

When I first saw this thread, I thought to myself, "Well, here's another pissing match about to begin!"

"When I first saw this thread, I thought to myself, "Well, here's another pissing match about to begin!"

Stick around -- it is coming! The heavy hitters have not chimed in yet!

 

[BGI User 1596]

"When I first saw this thread, I thought to myself, "Well, here's another pissing match about to begin!"

Stick around -- it is coming! The heavy hitters have not chimed in yet!

Excellent!

 

[d1042]

This is the incorrect way to look at it.

ND is competing with 130+ schools for 4 playoff spots. The only thing ND can control is how good of a program they are.

As we've learned record is only one factor of many used to determine where you land in the playoff rankings.

How much you dominate your schedule is a big factor
The quality of your wins is another
Performance vs common opponents
Not losing to mediocre/bad teams
Having favorable rankings in computer polls that take many misc. granular factors into consideration

etc.etc.etc.

It isn't enough to have more talent (or be better than most teams on your schedule)...in order to beat the college football rankings you need to be one of the 4 best teams in the country which ultimately means being one of the 4 most talented teams in the country

and ND MUST RECRUIT SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER in order to acheive that goal

Well, Chase, My opinion is I am correct and You have a right to be wrong, as you are in that 1st statement.

 

[SIhoosier26]

Its just completely ridiculous that I go on each thread and find the same jargon from the same people day in and day out. It baffles me that people can be so negative and hide behind the term "realist" as their excuse to spew messages of negativity about this team. I find it completely inane that we the "fans" cannot come together to find common ground on anything we talk about on here, and claim to be supporting the same team and program we all love.

There is a difference between criticism and negativity, and it is clear that posters don't see that reality. Criticism is 100% warranted in year 10 with no title, it is warranted with a blow out loss to UM, it is warranted when it comes to lack of "big wins" and countless mishaps, but it is not warranted on every thread every single day. The inability to yield any kind of positive response from the majority of posters on here exhibits a clear lack of coming togetherness that fanhood should be about. The unwillingness to say that we are a program with tradition that, in the last 30 years has been awful, but thanks to Brain Kelly we are back on the map is clear distinction that posters just want to argue and not acknowledge the good, but focus on the bad.

You see me reaching toward the middle, acknowledging short comings and many other posters do the same, but our focus is on the good that has come in the past 10 years, do you ever see the other side willing to acknowledge the good? Rather they dismiss it and cast you as an "apologist".

There is a lot to be said about a fan base like ours, a blue blood with nothing to show within most of our life times, yet our expectations are outrageous and our complaints continue to spew. I'm tired of the negative attitude exemplified on this board, and especially by those who seem to make up facts to "prove" their points.

It's not all sunshine and rainbows, no it is not, but this circus has gotten to be way too much.

Kelly sucks

 

[chaseball]

I understand that I'm a member of the critical divide on this forum. I just want to ask you what you think the nature of my posts would be if:

1. ND was bringing in talent/classes commensurate with their prestige as a wealthy A1 blue blood...
2. ND was performing on the field like a top 5--hell i'd even take top 10 at this point--program with a good shot at the playoffs most years
3. ND wasn't getting embarrassed by the first tier programs in college football in every way measurable
4. ND was doing something that gave them a competitive advantage/unique selling proposition other than being the boring and self righteous program that everybody's grandpa roots for
5. ND held the coach accountable and shrewdly made changes when not meeting program goals
6. ND invested way more football resources back into football specifically
7. ND held their athletic director responsible for the performance of the football program

To name just a few...

What do you think the nature of my posts would be if this were happening at ND? If you go back to my posts in 2017 season where ND was blowing away every team they were playing by the 3rd quarter i was being called a homer/fanboy because all the data i was presenting based on the team's performance was all very positive and had ND squarely in the first tier through the first 10 weeks.

More than negativity or positivity though the only thing that should matter is accuracy/the truth. That's why I read this forum for the best analysis on notre dame football anywhere. I don't come here to feel good about notre dame football, i don't need cheerleaders here. i come here to be educated about notre dame football. And when the program hasn't lived up to expectations in 30 years it's a good thing that there's a lot of criticism, passion, frustration flying around. These type of conversations are ultimately what lead to change--not covering your ears and eyes and pretending like everything is peachy.

 

[echowaker]

Why is ND loyal to BK despite BK making it pretty clear he'll jump somewhere else if offered a better opportunity/salary? (I don't blame him for wanting a bigger salary but I don't see BK as a "loyal to the organization" type of guy). Remember back in 2012 when he was at the top of the profession for a few weeks when ND had the #1 recruiting class and #1 team in the country before getting ran over by Alabama? If the Eagles offered BK he would have taken that job. Anytime he's had a good year since his name is fully entrenched in other opportunities where higher pay/status might be involved.

Also, Charlie Weis left BK a really talented group of star players (the roster wasnt as deep or balanced--especially in the front 7 as it is now--but the top end of the roster was far more talented).

I believe BK has really modernized the program to catch up with the rest of the top of college football in a lot of areas especially as it relates to policies, infrastructure, stadium environment, etc. He's certainly also built a much deeper roster (the guys as far back as 3 & 4 deep at a position can compete with the guys on the 2 deep). There have been tons of necessary behind the scenes changes in this regard that will make the job far more attractive to the next suitor and BK deserves a tremendous amount of credit for that.

But I think BK maxed his ceiling somewhere in 2015 and the program has stagnated since. ND has paid a high opportunity cost in retaining/extending him .. there has been a lot of coaching turnover (coaches ND could have taken a chance on that went to other programs and had success elsewhere instead). What's most frustrating to me is that despite the extremely predictable results/ceiling BK is still getting extended/retained in the year 2020 with no change in sight.

NOT TRUE AT ALL.

 

[Catholicfan95]

I understand that I'm a member of the critical divide on this forum. I just want to ask you what you think the nature of my posts would be if:

1. ND was bringing in talent/classes commensurate with their prestige as a wealthy A1 blue blood...
2. ND was performing on the field like a top 5--hell i'd even take top 10 at this point--program with a good shot at the playoffs most years
3. ND wasn't getting embarrassed by the first tier programs in college football in every way measurable
4. ND was doing something that gave them a competitive advantage/unique selling proposition other than being the boring school that everybody's grandpa roots for
5. ND held the coach accountable and shrewdly made changes when not meeting program goals
6. ND invested way more football resources back into football specifically
7. ND held their athletic director responsible for the leadership of the football program

To name just a few...

What do you think the nature of my posts would be if this were happening at ND? If you go back to my posts in 2017 season where ND was blowing away every team they were playing by the 3rd quarter i was being called a homer/fanboy because all the data i was presenting based on the team's performance was all very positive and had ND squarely in the first tier through the first 10 weeks.

More than negativity or positivity though the only thing that should matter is accuracy/the truth. That's why I read this forum for the best analysis on notre dame football anywhere. I don't come here to feel good about notre dame football, i don't need cheerleaders here. i come here to be educated about notre dame football. I don't need things to be packaged in a positive or negative light i just need them to be truthful unadulterated accurate opinions/analysis/takes/facts/etc.

"the only thing that should matter is accuracy/the truth." I challenge you to read this statement you have written as you have not at all exemplified this one iota. I think it is disingenuous for you to say seeing as you have made little to no effort to seek accuracy or truth yourself. I mean just look at points 1-7 none of these are supported by facts that make your statement 100% true, these are just talking points they are not facts. There is a huge difference in what is truth and what is just a good talking point, for example. You say ND is getting embarrassed by top tier programs in every way measurable, yet you will not give one shred of evidence on that? (How many times are we going to use the Michigan loss as the crutch for this season. Are we getting embarrassed in recruiting? That is your opinion it is not a fact, seeing as we have 2 5 star kids this year and the top ranked class for next year and the fact we have never fallen outside of the top 25 in recruiting should be enough data to shatter your point. But it is not meeting your expectation so you consider that to not be credible evidence, which makes you wrong.) And that is just one example to shatter one of those points, we can keep going but as I mentioned when it comes to the facts you are only looking for those that fit your theme and your opinion and if that were the case then you would be right about many of those points, but that is not the reality.

 

[echowaker]

Clemson has 6 5 star recruits. 6.

There is no way to compete with that when you have Dabo coaching. We have to recruit better. Period.

agree that you can always recruit better. every school can. it's a head in the sand mentality though if you think ND can recruit every top player available with their current policies in place.

 

[NDgreatestofalltime!]

I read about half the post and as the initial poster claimed it quickly broke apart in to factions. I like to think of myself as an honest poster, much positive and some negative, like any good relationships you will certainly have both.

I think the short term memory or amnesia that some here suffer from may have become an epidemic.

Do you guys remember that prior to BK, ND had bee losing to poor football teams the should never had, ISU, Air Force, Navy, etc. over the course of the next few years ND finally broke the monkey on their back, they began beating teams they should have but now it was expected to happen. Competing with better program even if not always winning, playing them with out being trashed on the field was another obstacle to overcome.

The overall talent level of the team is much better now, a huge complaint I heard for years, myself include was “We’re (ND) and aren’t competing , getting destroyed by 21+ to any decent team, and losing to those we shouldn’t. Well, we started smashing the lesser opponents again, as well as competing and winning some of the better programs on our schedule.

Bottom line I want a title but will it happ, it seem less likely, but world class facilities, and academics, ND is in the top 10 of CFB teams to send guys to the big dance (NFL), the stadium and experience is far better that that of 10-20 years ago

Are things Clemson, OSU, or Bama good but that’s why there are only a few of them too.

There’s room to grouse about trying to get a few more elite recruits but on the flip side being able to understand our obstacles there should be plan too see. Location, location, location, academics, weather, we gotta find the kids that want to go pro but are smart enough to have a legitimate back up plan.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

You could describe the divide as the rational (those that realize Kelly is good, but not good enough) and the irrational (those that hold fast to support of Kelly in the face of all sound evidence and logical data).

The rational can only tolerate the irrational for so long in any environment. Even a message board.

I think we have reached critical mass here on this board.

We will need to bring back rationality and not tolerate the inane continuous talking points and narratives of the irrational (we've heard them all and know them well).

Until this can be accomplished, the irrational will continue to deteriorate the quality of the board and undermine any reasonable and productive football discourse.

Regrettably, this will ultimately result in some of our more valued posters temporarily leaving and not contributing as it has happened during the latter years of the other failed regimes.

That Kelly has been allowed to continue on in his slightly above average manner for so long has brought great stress to the fanbase and himself.

Each party should have mutually agreed to part ways after 2016.

As it stands now, we will have to likely endure his incompetence for another three years at which time we will finally be free of his failed tenure ready to start anew.

Hopefully by that time Swarbrick will have been dispatched as well as he is the ultimate architect of this unfortunate and regrettable decade in ND football history.

Your arrogance and condescension are breathtaking. Do you actually believe the drivel you write, or do you do it just to get a rise from people? Being a loyal supporter of ND and Kelly despite his shortcomings (some real, but many of them imaginary) doesn't make someone "irrational," as you so dismissively describe them; it makes them a FAN. You've attempted to divide the people on this board into two camps: the irrational and the rational. I prefer to think of them as the realists and the whiners. The realists recognize that posters on a message board have zero control over things like staffing, coaching and recruiting, and that constant hand wringing over the same are a pointless waste of energy. The realists are fans of Notre Dame football and all of its rich history and traditions. They are disappointed when ND loses, but don't find it productive to engage in long polemics attacking the state of the program and the coaching staff.

The whiners, on the other hand--or as Spiro Agnew might have described them, the nattering nabobs of negativism--like to sit back and take pot shots at every aspect of the program. And when the team's successes don't fit their narrative, they find some convenient way to dismiss those successes. The whiners are full of themselves and take pride in their abilities to deliver an endless stream of criticism about ND football. They apparently enjoy living in Bizarro World, where life is good when ND loses because it allows them to stand back, thump their chests and proclaim with great self confidence, "See, I told you this would happen with Kelly coaching this team! He needs to go or we are forever doomed!"

It's OK to come on this board and express opinions (including criticisms) about ND's coaches and the state of the football program. That is what a message board is for. But when you stand up and immodestly declare, "We will need to bring back rationality and not tolerate the inane continuous talking points and narratives of the irrational (we've heard them all and know them well)," you come across as a smug, arrogant and condescending know it all.

 

[Catholicfan95]

Your arrogance and condescension are breathtaking. Do you actually believe the drivel you write, or do you do it just to get a rise from people? Being a loyal supporter of ND and Kelly despite his shortcomings (some real, but many of them imaginary) doesn't make someone "irrational," as you so dismissively describe them; it makes them a FAN. You've attempted to divide the people on this board into two camps: the irrational and the rational. I prefer to think of them as the realists and the whiners. The realists recognize that posters on a message board have zero control over things like staffing, coaching and recruiting, and that constant hand wringing over the same are a pointless waste of energy. The realists are fans of Notre Dame football and all of its rich history and traditions. They are disappointed when ND loses, but don't find it productive to engage in long polemics attacking the state of the program and the coaching staff.

The whiners, on the other hand--or as Spiro Agnew might have described them, the nattering nabobs of negativism--like to sit back and take pot shots at every aspect of the program. And when the team's successes don't fit their narrative, they find some convenient way to dismiss those successes. The whiners are full of themselves and take pride in their abilities to deliver an endless stream of criticism about ND football. They apparently enjoy living in Bizarro World, where life is good when ND loses because it allows them to stand back, thump their chests and proclaim with great self confidence, "See, I told you this would happen with Kelly coaching this team! He needs to go or we are forever doomed!"

It's OK to come on this board and express opinions (including criticisms) about ND's coaches and the state of the football program. That is what a message board is for. But when you stand up and immodestly declare, "We will need to bring back rationality and not tolerate the inane continuous talking points and narratives of the irrational (we've heard them all and know them well)," you come across as a smug, arrogant and condescending know it all.

Watch out man, though you made great points were clear and concise he is going to accuse you of cyber bullying and personally attacking him. Look no further than the thread titled "Will Shipley" to see what this poster is all about.

 

[NyyorkerND]

ND has a limited talent pool to recruit players bc of Admissions it's that simple. Yeah we'll be in a a few 5 stars every year but not to the tune of some of these other programs some of you guys need to ACCEPT IT! Then bring reasonable arguments to the table. Tell me that we shouldn't lose a Walker Little or a Myles Hinton to Stanford bc that's a fair argument. Not we gotta recruit with Bama, OSU, Clem, & Georgia. An I didn't even bring up location, bc Stanford is like Ibiza compared to South Bend.

 

[twalsh]

You could describe the divide as the rational (those that realize Kelly is good, but not good enough) and the irrational (those that hold fast to support of Kelly in the face of all sound evidence and logical data).

The rational can only tolerate the irrational for so long in any environment. Even a message board.

I think we have reached critical mass here on this board.

We will need to bring back rationality and not tolerate the inane continuous talking points and narratives of the irrational (we've heard them all and know them well).

Until this can be accomplished, the irrational will continue to deteriorate the quality of the board and undermine any reasonable and productive football discourse.

Regrettably, this will ultimately result in some of our more valued posters temporarily leaving and not contributing as it has happened during the latter years of the other failed regimes.

That Kelly has been allowed to continue on in his slightly above average manner for so long has brought great stress to the fanbase and himself.

Each party should have mutually agreed to part ways after 2016.

As it stands now, we will have to likely endure his incompetence for another three years at which time we will finally be free of his failed tenure ready to start anew.

Hopefully by that time Swarbrick will have been dispatched as well as he is the ultimate architect of this unfortunate and regrettable decade in ND football history.

You do realize that, in situations like this, BOTH sides believe they are rational and the other side is not, right?

 

[d1042]

"the only thing that should matter is accuracy/the truth." I challenge you to read this statement you have written as you have not at all exemplified this one iota. I think it is disingenuous for you to say seeing as you have made little to no effort to seek accuracy or truth yourself. I mean just look at points 1-7 none of these are supported by facts that make your statement 100% true, these are just talking points they are not facts. There is a huge difference in what is truth and what is just a good talking point, for example. You say ND is getting embarrassed by top tier programs in every way measurable, yet you will not give one shred of evidence on that? (How many times are we going to use the Michigan loss as the crutch for this season. Are we getting embarrassed in recruiting? That is your opinion it is not a fact, seeing as we have 2 5 star kids this year and the top ranked class for next year and the fact we have never fallen outside of the top 25 in recruiting should be enough data to shatter your point. But it is not meeting your expectation so you consider that to not be credible evidence, which makes you wrong.) And that is just one example to shatter one of those points, we can keep going but as I mentioned when it comes to the facts you are only looking for those that fit your theme and your opinion and if that were the case then you would be right about many of those points, but that is not the reality.

the real matter of it is, really, nothing matters. Nothing.

(hope that cheered you up!)

 

[88ND]

You do realize that, in situations like this, BOTH sides believe they are rational and the other side is not, right?

Huh?

A message board offers up all sorts of opinions from all sorts of angles. If that bothers someone then I believe they shouldn't be spending so much time on a message board.

There are only a handful of the immature who keep score of a game that isn't even being played.

Example: Most BK defenders offer up an opinion based stance on the matter. "Things are great" "the program is right there with the best" etc etc...
All while posting this on a public message board mind you....

The anti BK poster who doesn't share the same optimistic outlook then chooses to debate such an opinion offering up facts for their particular stance of such a matter.

From my observation the pro BK crowd actually gets offended if you challenge their opinion. Personally slighted they act and nothing could be further from the truth.

In my own personal experience someone's opinion can differ greatly from mine and I don't care even one bit. I'll gladly engage and debate but I don't personally care whatsoever and I certainly don't feel slighted nor personally attacked.

On the other hand that person who got challenged, on a public message board mind you, goes all in keyboard loco. Calling names, machine gunning post after post, etc. Behavior that can ONLY mean they've felt personally attacked...or trying to keep a score.

I've seen a very similar type behavior quite a bit and I'm sure you have as well. Matter of fact if you've seen any segment of 5 minutes or longer on any major news network since 2016 you can pretty much see the same exact type of behavior.

One side while not ideal taking things in stride and the other going absolutely off the charts psycho.

Seems like a sign of the times.

 

[Catholicfan95]

Huh?

A message board offers up all sorts of opinions from all sorts of angles. If that bothers someone then I believe they shouldn't be spending so much time on a message board.

There are only a handful of the immature who keep score of a game that isn't even being played.

Example: Most BK defenders offer up an opinion based stance on the matter. "Things are great" "the program is right there with the best" etc etc...
All while posting this on a public message board mind you....

The anti BK poster who doesn't share the same optimistic outlook then chooses to debate such an opinion offering up facts for their particular stance of such a matter.

From my observation the pro BK crowd actually gets offended if you challenge their opinion. Personally slighted they act and nothing could be further from the truth.

In my own personal experience someone's opinion can differ greatly from mine and I don't care even one bit. I'll gladly engage and debate but I don't personally care whatsoever and I certainly don't feel slighted nor personally attacked.

On the other hand that person who got challenged, on a public message board mind you, goes all in keyboard loco. Calling names, machine gunning post after post, etc. Behavior that can ONLY mean they've felt personally attacked...or trying to keep a score.

I've seen a very similar type behavior quite a bit and I'm sure you have as well. Matter of fact if you've seen any segment of 5 minutes or longer on any major news network since 2016 you can pretty much see the same exact type of behavior.

One side while not ideal taking things in stride and the other going absolutely off the charts psycho.

Seems like a sign of the times.

This post is littered with hypocrisy.

 

[Golson5]

I'll give you this, BK has turned ND around and done some very good things. However, he has reached his ceiling, hes gone as far as he can go. Time for a new HC to take ND over the top.

Bull. He hasnt hit his ceiling. He definitely cam get to a higher level

 

[Kelso86]

This post is littered with hypocrisy.

"This post is littered with hypocrisy"

I told you the heavy hitters were coming out!

 

[deadprez3]

and ND MUST RECRUIT SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER in order to acheive that goal

This is the crux of the matter.

Kelly is not a good enough recruiter to take ND to the next level.

We can argue semantics on how to break down or define the amount of talent he accumulates but that is all just people talking past each other.

2012 Alabama
2015 Clemson
2015 OSU
2017 UGA
2018 Clemson
2019 UGA

It's all there out in broad daylight for the world to see.

ND is an exception when it comes to being elite, not the rule.

ND made the playoffs last year? That's cute, MSU made the playoffs once too

Any program can catch lightning in a bottle every once in awhile when the stars align. No one actually thought MSU belonged on that stage and no one expected them back anytime soon.

ND has won "ten games" the past three years in a row? That's cute.

Who did they play?

What elite teams did they beat?

What was their best win over that three year time span?

Did they dominate their lesser opponents consistently or did they find themselves in a lot of dogfights against fringe top 25 teams or even all of the MAC opponents?

ND went 10-2 this year. Wonder what their record would have been with TA&M schedule this year?

Would they have made the playoffs in 2018 if there wasn't a one year hiatus in the UGA series?

Would ND be able to trumpet to the skys Kelly's 10 win success if the Pete Carroll era was still going on at USC?

What if ND were a member of the ACC? Would they be making many playoffs with Clemson in the league?

Everyone knows the answers to these rhetorical questions.

Kelly is a good coach but he doesn't possess the inherent intelligence, creativity, vision, or energy level to take ND to the next level. If he could have, he would have.

People can blab on and on about academic restrictions, paying players, etc but at the end of the day certain human beings are capable of amazing feats and some human beings are just better at things than others.

Given what we have accomplished as a human race, I am confident that there exists a human being out in the universe with the inherent intelligence, vision, foresight, and energy that could manage the seemingly inconceivable and consistently recruit a collection of high school football players whom would be considered amongst the top five in the country on a year in and year out basis by leveraging the inherent advantages of the most historical collegiate football program in the nation, which also happens to offer a world class education, and has shown the willingness and ability to provide said individuals in the head coaching position nearly all requested concessions when it comes to deployments of capital.

I know it might appear daunting to sign one or two of these high school athletes labeled as a five star when its possible that perhaps three or four cannot be allowed into the institution due to academic failings. But you would hope again that there would be some human being available on the planet that might perhaps be able to work around this inconvenient obstacle and sign a few of the remaining 25 or so scholastic athletes.

And even were that to be a task too daunting for the human race, we should hold out hope for the future of civilization that there remain out there an individual who could curry favor with the remaining 225 or so scholar athletes included in the various internet periodicals as the most accomplished athletes in the graduating class.

You would hope that given the 225 available candidates there would remain a human on this planet that could attract around 6% of those fine athletes to play football for ND.

I know the above feats sound daunting and some may say impossible. I would challenge the doubters to rise up and grow faith! For we as a people have traversed vast oceans and explored the out planetary regions!

I am a believer in the human race and I stand firm in my convictions that recruiting top 5 classes to ND are in fact possible! That it is not too challenging of a task for the human race to take!

Regrettably, it is beyond the abilities of our current failed and disgraced leader. That is why we must severe ties and bid farewell.

For we as people entrusted by God with the abilities of reason and logic and rationality can deduce that while Kelly is good, he is simply not good enough. For all that has been accomplished by man since the dawn of time, we can stand confident that an individual (or perhaps even 10-15 individuals at any given time) exists out there in the stratosphere that will not get his ass handed to him every year in recruiting and when he leads his men out onto the collegiate football battlefield.